Could the settlement of San Francisco in Fallout 2 have been written better?

ElloinmorninJ

ElloinmorninJ

Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I feel like the settlement of San Francisco is....wierdly written. Both the Shi, Hubologists, and Tanker Vagrants seemed like cool factions in paper, but I feel like the execution was pretty bad. What do you they think?
 
I think it's overall fine but yes it is strange in its setup and payoff. Tanker Vagrants are fine and the Hubologists are a mix of being too much and also too little. The Shi prove the most problematic.

Conceptually they are quite strong but they are super underutilized, outside of the main quest there really isn't any actual content with them. The idea of their leader being a super-computer and them holding good technological knowledge is neat but they do swerve into mary-sue territory with their power levels. I think an interesting direction might have been something more primitive/proto-tribal and shown them as distant descendants of the Chinese people from the submarine that preserved their traditions but also allowed them to evolve/change in the near 200 years since the Great War, whereas in the game they feel more like the children or maybe at a push grandchildren of the original survivors at most. The whole kung-fu thing is just sort of cringey and racist and tbh I think the Reno boxing ring covered everything that arc covers in a more suitable fashion, no need for it. In general having a faction inspired by actual Chinese culture/traditions rather than cliche superficial stereotypes would have been really cool.

The Shi Emperor you could pull a classic Wizard of Oz storyline about the illusion of the Emperor keeping order/balance, with the Chosen One helping keep up the illusion or exposing it and sowing chaos.

I think if you kept the Shi as a fledgling technological power you could have also done stuff with regards to NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel. The Brotherhood trying to siphon knowledge or sabotage the Shi, the NCR trying to incorporate San Francisco. Perhaps the Shi were unwilling to accept NCR rule but the NCR want to leverage the Hubologists and Tanker Vagrants for support to justify occupying the city by technically holding a democratic majority support. Or perhaps leading a change in leadership by exposing the whole Emperor charade and inserting somebody more NCR supportive into power, or doing a hit and run on the computer for the BoS.
 
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I agree that the factions of San Francisco on the surface are good ideas.

The idea of a group of cultists descended from a pre-war Scientology-like scam is interesting, but the ingame Hubologists are just Scientology parodies, even down to using celebrities to help recruit. And they are technologically advanced for seemingly no reason.

The Shi being technologically advanced makes sense from their backstory, and their whole backstory is a cool retelling of a BOS-type group from a Chinese perspective. And the supercomputer “emperor” twist is a nice idea. But ingame they aren’t much more than a shitty kung fu movie with some scientists and endgame merchants.

The tanker vagrants would’ve been cooler if they were a little more morally ambiguous. They’re all a bunch of punk-hippies led by an ex-Enclave guy. Maybe if they had some rampant drug abuse or other stuff that comes with their ideology of absolute freedom. Or maybe their leader is obsessed with getting revenge on the Enclave “by any means necessary”.
 
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Iprovidelittlepianos said:
I agree that the factions of San Francisco on the surface are good ideas.

The idea of a group of cultists descended from a pre-war Scientology-like scam is interesting, but the ingame Hubologists are just Scientology parodies, even down to using celebrities to help recruit. And they are technology advanced for seemingly no reason.

The Shi being technologically advanced makes sense from their backstory, and their whole backstory is a cool retelling of a BOS-type group from a Chinese perspective. And the supercomputer “emperor” twist is a nice idea. But ingame they aren’t much more than a shitty kung fu movie with some scientists and endgame merchants.

The tanker vagrants would’ve been cooler if they were a little more morally ambiguous. They’re all a bunch of punk-hippies led by an ex-Enclave guy. Maybe if they had some rampant drug abuse or other stuff that comes with their ideology of absolute freedom. Or maybe their leader is obsessed with getting revenge on the Enclave “by any means necessary”.
Click to expand...

So, you were suggesting making the Hubologists more primitive?
 
San Fran should be like the Boneyard. The Shi can be moved south to San Jose or so. The Hubbologists might have taken Berkeley or maybe the Enclave (I would not miss them one bit). The Yakuza made no fucking sense as is.

The main thing I get from San Fran is that Bethesda preferred that to what happened to LA and it's why we'll never see any major city completely wiped off the map again. DC, Boston, and yes, even Vegas. It helped make everything coo-coo and flanderized. Chicago, New York, Austin, Houston, Honolulu, Miami, or whatever we see next will be much of the same.
 
ElloinmorninJ said:
So, you were suggesting making the Hubologists more primitive?
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Yeah, more primitive in the sense that they don’t have energy weapons and stuff like that, although they might still desire going to space and all that. But being an end game faction means that they have to have good weapons so I don’t know how that would work out. But most importantly they shouldn’t be the insane/stupid/evil faction of San Francisco. Their morals may be warped by their crazy religion, but there should be actual logical reasons to side with them.
 
1) Drop kungfu, scientology, porn stars, super computer, endgame shops ideas,
2) Merge Shi and Hubologist into one faction,
3) Make BoS more present, make tankers more present (let say BoS in control of imports/exports and tankers in control not only PMV Valdez but also docks),
4) Incorporate San Fran in the whole Fallout 2 economy system (Redding-Reno-VC-NCR trade), lets say they sell canned fish and fish was and still is an important food supply, fish and dock/ship technology
5) 3 factions: BoS, Tankers, Chinese,
6) No pure good, no pure evil faction (everyone has ups and downs),
7) The Chosen One decides who to back up, like in New Reno.
8) Make worldmap smaller so the Chosen One gets there on level 12 and not 18 (when he in overpowered).

Overall the Chinese ex submarine descendands idea is good but poorly executed. The whole city should be more gray than black and white. We basically get two endgame factions to wipe out (one or another) and it's boring. There should be better quests.

Quests ideas:
a) The Chinese want something from the submarine. They can't get it the Tankers are in control of coastline. Chosen One must inflirtate the docks (by sneak, speach or gun).
b) The Tankers are't happy with the trade deal, they blame some BoS knight. Chosen One must get rid of him or expose him somehow.
c) The BoS thinks The Tankers are The Enclave in disguise. Chosen One must collect evidence.

+ Chosen One must repair PMV Valdez by skill and by looking for missing parts just like in F2Nevada.

Not perfect but here you go, my idea how to make San Fran better. What do you guys think?
 
That would make San Francisco much better. Especially the idea of making the brotherhood of steel more present as a faction there. I never thought of that.
 
I don't like the idea of Shi being superpower (steel palace and advanced technology). You can't fit an army into one single submarine. Yes they are one step further than others but their resources should be limited. For example instead of Steel Palace guards armed with gauss rifles, the gauss rifle could be an award for completing the Shi questline (one model gun, just like .223 in F1).

As for BoS.
They have the network of contacts. They were in Hub in F1, they are in NCR and in the Den. We can expand this plotline by saying: the BoS after the descruction of Military Base in F1 moved further and discovered San Fran. They established outpost there and took care of security. Security also means they take care of caravans going out from San Fran with trade goods.

Instead of one little outpost with one guy and a super computer lets make a whole single town section rulled by BoS. You enter San Fran from worldmap and are greeted by BoS guy in power armor. He gives you short introduction to the city rules and so. From this BoS city section you can move to the docks and tanker or to the Shi city section. BoS should be represented not by one guy but by 10-12, with chief and his deputy in power armor and rest in combat armor + couple of non-BoS villagers (a bar, a doc, a simple shop).

Something like this:
BoS - occupying entrance to the San Fran - security
Tankers - dock and PMV Valdez - production of fish and scavengin for dock/ship related electronics/technology
Chinese Shi - Shi section but not Steel Palace - population and workforce (they were the first inhabitants so they are most populous)

And as it is in games, every faction wants more power that thay already have
and here comes the "do you have any quests for me?" Chosen One
 
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Tribalus Maximus said:
I don't like the idea of Shi being superpower (steel palace and advanced technology). You can't fit an army into one single submarine. Yes they are one step further than others but their resources should be limited. For example instead of Steel Palace guards armed with gauss rifles, the gauss rifle could be an award for completing the Shi questline (one model gun, just like .223 in F1).

As for BoS.
They have the network of contacts. They were in Hub in F1, they are in NCR and in the Den. We can expand this plotline by saying: the BoS after the descruction of Military Base in F1 moved further and discovered San Fran. They established outpost there and took care of security. Security also means they take care of caravans going out from San Fran with trade goods.

Instead of one little outpost with one guy and a super computer lets make a whole single town section rulled by BoS. You enter San Fran from worldmap and are greeted by BoS guy in power armor. He gives you short introduction to the city rules and so. From this BoS city section you can move to the docks and tanker or to the Shi city section. BoS should be represented not by one guy but by 10-12, with chief and his deputy in power armor and rest in combat armor + couple of non-BoS villagers (a bar, a doc, a simple shop).

Something like this:
BoS - occupying entrance to the San Fran - security
Tankers - dock and PMV Valdez - production of fish and scavengin for dock/ship related electronics/technology
Chinese Shi - Shi section but not Steel Palace - population and workforce (they were the first inhabitants so they are most populous)

And as it is in games, every faction wants more power that thay already have
and here comes the "do you have any quests for me?" Chosen One
Click to expand...

I actually think the Hubologists should be kept in, but, ofc, changed to better fit Fallout's world. I really liked the Children of the Cathedral from F1, so I think the Hubologist should be made to mirror it more. Limit their technology a bit, and take out the innuendos of course (no stupid shit like Celebs, or their spaceship). Maybe before the war the Hubologist leaders created an underground vault-like structure to protect their members, and know after emerging their goal is too...create their own nation out of the ruins of San Francisco. Like a...scientologist caliphate. Idk but the whole "cultish, single-minded" vibe fits Fallout. And since we're talking trade, maybe they export...ammunition in exchange for money to buy weapons and food. Just a starters. (We should get old Killap to make this a mod)
 
ElloinmorninJ said:
I actually think the Hubologists should be kept in, but, ofc, changed to better fit Fallout's world. I really liked the Children of the Cathedral from F1, so I think the Hubologist should be made to mirror it more. Limit their technology a bit, and take out the innuendos of course (no stupid shit like Celebs, or their spaceship). Maybe before the war the Hubologist leaders created an underground vault-like structure to protect their members, and know after emerging their goal is too...create their own nation out of the ruins of San Francisco. Like a...scientologist caliphate. Idk but the whole "cultish, single-minded" vibe fits Fallout. And since we're talking trade, maybe they export...ammunition in exchange for money to buy weapons and food. Just a starters. (We should get old Killap to make this a mod)
Click to expand...
This is a good idea but I personally think that hubologists shouldn’t be directly descended from their pre war members. I’d rather it just be that some guy found a copy of the hubologist version of Dianetics and restarted the religion as a group of survivalist cultists.

Edit: Kind of like that one Christian faction in wasteland 2
 
Iprovidelittlepianos said:
This is a good idea but I personally think that hubologists shouldn’t be directly descended from their pre war members. I’d rather it just be that some guy found a copy of the hubologist version of Dianetics and restarted the religion as a group of survivalist cultists.

Edit: Kind of like that one Christian faction in wasteland 2
Click to expand...
The descended from pre-war thing was my explanation for how they got their tech
 
Tribalus Maximus said:
I don't like the idea of Shi being superpower (steel palace and advanced technology). You can't fit an army into one single submarine. Yes they are one step further than others but their resources should be limited. For example instead of Steel Palace guards armed with gauss rifles, the gauss rifle could be an award for completing the Shi questline (one model gun, just like .223 in F1).

As for BoS.
They have the network of contacts. They were in Hub in F1, they are in NCR and in the Den. We can expand this plotline by saying: the BoS after the descruction of Military Base in F1 moved further and discovered San Fran. They established outpost there and took care of security. Security also means they take care of caravans going out from San Fran with trade goods.

Instead of one little outpost with one guy and a super computer lets make a whole single town section rulled by BoS. You enter San Fran from worldmap and are greeted by BoS guy in power armor. He gives you short introduction to the city rules and so. From this BoS city section you can move to the docks and tanker or to the Shi city section. BoS should be represented not by one guy but by 10-12, with chief and his deputy in power armor and rest in combat armor + couple of non-BoS villagers (a bar, a doc, a simple shop).

Something like this:
BoS - occupying entrance to the San Fran - security
Tankers - dock and PMV Valdez - production of fish and scavengin for dock/ship related electronics/technology
Chinese Shi - Shi section but not Steel Palace - population and workforce (they were the first inhabitants so they are most populous)

And as it is in games, every faction wants more power that thay already have
and here comes the "do you have any quests for me?" Chosen One
Click to expand...

how do you feel about my idea?
 
ElloinmorninJ said:
I actually think the Hubologists should be kept in, but, ofc, changed to better fit Fallout's world. I really liked the Children of the Cathedral from F1, so I think the Hubologist should be made to mirror it more. Limit their technology a bit, and take out the innuendos of course (no stupid shit like Celebs, or their spaceship). Maybe before the war the Hubologist leaders created an underground vault-like structure to protect their members, and know after emerging their goal is too...create their own nation out of the ruins of San Francisco. Like a...scientologist caliphate. Idk but the whole "cultish, single-minded" vibe fits Fallout. And since we're talking trade, maybe they export...ammunition in exchange for money to buy weapons and food. Just a starters. (We should get old Killap to make this a mod)
Click to expand...

I like cult religion based villains in games, don't get me wrong. CotC and The Master are my favorite top number 1 enemy of all games that I've played. But here's the problem: wouldn't any cult in F2 (not just Hubologist) be a mere copy of Children of the Cathedral?

It would be better to go full on CotC instead of scientology. Let say one CotC member survived destruction of Military Base and Cathedral and now he (or his folowers) are trying to recreate their cult. They tell story about good Master and evil Vault Dweller who put an end to Unity and their righteousness plan. Vault Dweller gave the wasteland only chaos and destruction.

A different perspective.
 
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