A blow dealt to the US(Obama's) health care idea.

I don't get Americans. Do they enjoy the idea of having to take a second mortgage every time they fracture a thumb? Or are they a nation of übermenschen that cannot get sick or injured? Or maybe they are so patriotic that they would rather be forced into bankruptcy by a minor case of pneumonia than deny DoD another line of billion-dollar stealth jets which will in all likelihood be used to smart-bomb five-dollar tents?
 
This means that the whole health care thing is going to be delayed even more. Should have voted on it before this election, instead of jerking the think till it chafes.
 
Ratty said:
I don't get Americans. Do they enjoy the idea of having to take a second mortgage every time they fracture a thumb? Or are they a nation of übermenschen that cannot get sick or injured? Or maybe they are so patriotic that they would rather be forced into bankruptcy by a minor case of pneumonia than deny DoD another line of billion-dollar stealth jets which will in all likelihood be used to smart-bomb five-dollar tents?
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Because that there Communists manifesto is why! We done don't want no Socialist IDEALS in this here country! And I sure as Hell don't Want Government getting involved with my social security!

I thank the people of massachusetts for making up for the 60 years of Terror under Ted Kennedy by putting a republican(what ever his name may be) in his Seat!
 
no, you see, americans would not really mind socialist health care if it were not for a few factors:

1) nobody believes it can be passed without a net increase in taxes. if they could somehow make it a reality without increasing taxes, it would gain a lot of ground. of course nobody with any brains thinks you can have socialist health care without increased taxes. lower taxes is more important than decent health care.

2) you could prevent non-emergency health care to illegal aliens. even providing emergency health care to illegal immigrants is bad enough and enough of a tax burden, this again would lead to increased costs.

3) for health care to be decided upon by your doctor and you rather than some political panel. if a politicial or any panel decides your care, then it would lead to the great fear of denying care to elderly people to curtail costs. of course, not denying care to elderly people would lead to increased costs which would have to be passed down to tax payers.

4) would lead to greater governmental influence in our every day lives and require more overhead to make sure all policies and proceedures are followed. leading to... higher costs associated with running this idea which would get passed to the tax payers. which means more taxes.


are you seeing the trend yet? its not that we are vhemently opposed to socialist health care, its that we do not want to pay for it.
 
Sicblades said:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100120/usa/us_vote_politics_senate

And it looked like the US might be joining the civilized world with some sort of universal health care there for a while... Oh well.
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Because adding a trillion dollars on top of your trillion dollar debt is CIVILIZATION.
 
they should eventualy consider to spend less on military.

I am neither a fan from him nor am I anti-obama but didnt people vote him cause they expected a change and reforms? How comes that many have now suddenly such a strong dislike regarding a few of his ideas like the health care? Sure there is no garantue that such a system will work wonders and definetly is not the best solution in the world but its eventualy worth to try it. Like BN said, its not like the current health care system the US has would be without flaws and it seems that many people have already issues even with usual jobs to get any decent health care. So why not try something new at least.
 
Almost everyone here wants to reform our health care system in some way, but the specifics of this particular bill combined with the blatantly corrupt, ends-justify-the-means way it's been manufactured are wildly unpopular. Don't forget, Mass. is one of the most lefty states in the entire country. Obama won there by a wide, wide margin. Brown won because plenty of Democrats despise the way the government is being run - there simply aren't enough Republicans in Mass. to elect him on their own. The question now is whether or not the Democrat Party finally starts to understand the bloodbath they're in for in the next real election if they don't change their ways. My guess is no, but we'll see.

Finally, why do you care whether we join your notion of the "civilized world" or not? I've never understood that.

Crni Vuk said:
they should eventualy consider to spend less on military.
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I think this movement is growing. Personally, I'd like to withdraw from most of our alliances and go back to pre-WWII isolationism, but I don't think it's practical.
 
TheWesDude said:
no, you see, americans would not really mind socialist health care if it were not for a few factors:

1) nobody believes it can be passed without a net increase in taxes. if they could somehow make it a reality without increasing taxes, it would gain a lot of ground. of course nobody with any brains thinks you can have socialist health care without increased taxes. lower taxes is more important than decent health care.
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It shouldn't be, since the current system sucks.
Also, the US spens more money per capita on health care than any other country, which would suggest that it can be done much cheaper and eventually lead to a decrease in taxes.

TheWesDude said:
2) you could prevent non-emergency health care to illegal aliens. even providing emergency health care to illegal immigrants is bad enough and enough of a tax burden, this again would lead to increased costs.
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I sincerely doubt that this would actually have a major impact. Are there any numbers on this? Also, what does this actually have to do with a healthcare package?

TheWesDude said:
3) for health care to be decided upon by your doctor and you rather than some political panel. if a politicial or any panel decides your care, then it would lead to the great fear of denying care to elderly people to curtail costs. of course, not denying care to elderly people would lead to increased costs which would have to be passed down to tax payers.
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How would it lead to refusing the elderly more than they are already refused? Elderly people who can't pay the healthcare bills are already fucked, and universal healthcare should help them get care. Conversely, the elderly who now can afford healthcare shouldn't be denied, because y'know, they can already pay for it.

TheWesDude said:
4) would lead to greater governmental influence in our every day lives and require more overhead to make sure all policies and proceedures are followed. leading to... higher costs associated with running this idea which would get passed to the tax payers. which means more taxes.
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Actually, a system of universal healthcare should lead to a decrease in overall health costs. 'The Undercover Economist' by Tim Harford does a really good job of explaining why this is the case.
Mainly, it's due to an information imbalance.
Here's what happens in a non-universal healthcare system: people signing up for healthcare are going to be the ones who think they are most likely to need it. In other words, the low-risk groups who would otherwise pay for health insurance but not use it often are removed from the pool of insurance clients. This leads to an increase in price for the remaining people, as the burden is shared by fewer people. This increase in price then increases the threshold for people to join up, which means that the people who think they need it the least again stop getting health insurance. See the vicious cycle?
The insurance companies try to counteract this by getting as much information on their clients as possible, and then dividing them into risk groups and charging them accordingly. This defeats the purpose: it charges much more of the people who are in a high-risk group (and hence most likely to use health care) and hence doesn't make it more affordable for them.

The reason that this is a problem, is that when catastrophe strikes, healthcare bills pile up and for many people it's impossible to ever pay those bills.

In a universal healthcare system that problem disappears. The burden is shared by everyone equally, lessening the amount everyone spends by themselves. The information imbalance disappears, because there's no drop-off and no point to filtering: everyone gets healthcare and insurance companies can't deny people healthcare.

Singapore has an interesting alternative that seems to work well: they give everyone a health care bank account, they put in some amount of money each year and ask that the people themselves put money in their health care accounts as well. That way, people build up a sort of health care budget and can decide themselves where to spend it.
TheWesDude said:
are you seeing the trend yet? its not that we are vhemently opposed to socialist health care, its that we do not want to pay for it.
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No, it's more that the US public is ill-informed of the actual costs of 'socialist'(pah) healthcare.
 
I find it amusing that the Europeans here are lecturing Americans on the benefits of universal healthcare when they don't pay the taxes we do. They are already high enough without us supporting some other guy's healthcare. Maybe if the economy wasn't in a recession, more people would support it. And besides, I'm not really a "Help the Poor" person. I don't care that some poor bastard who can't pay his hospital dies when thousands more every day are born to replace him.
 
OakTable said:
I find it amusing that the Europeans here are lecturing Americans on the benefits of universal healthcare when they don't pay the taxes we do. They are already high enough without us supporting some other guy's healthcare. Maybe if the economy wasn't in a recession, more people would support it. And besides, I'm not really a "Help the Poor" person. I don't care that some poor bastard who can't pay his hospital dies when thousands more every day are born to replace him.
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No, we don't pay the taxes you do. We (or at least us Dutchies) pay more.

Also, kind of you to ignore my post. Explain to me how the most expensive healthcare system in the world is going to get more expensive (in the long-term, I understand it will cost a significant initial investment) if it moves to a system that has proven to be less expensive per capita (see: every nation with a form of universal healthcare).
 
Getting me to pay more taxes is like getting me to chop my thumb off; I'd never do it. I might support it if the economy magically stops sucking, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
 
OakTable said:
Getting me to pay more taxes is like getting me to chop my thumb off; I'd never do it. I might support it if the economy magically stops sucking, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
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Why are you completely ignoring what I'm saying?

You're only going to pay more taxes if the healthcare system is more expensive. So, why would a healthcare system be more expensive if it's been proven that the system is much cheaper. Again: see every nation running a universal healthcare system.
 
Actually tax-wise the universal healthcare systems tend to be more expensive. The per capita spending figures in the enormous debts accrued by individual Americans due to their broken healthcare system, the spending per individual is not necessarily higher, and the tax spending per individual on the healthcare system is certainly lower.

I mean, Oaky is being obtuse, but what you're saying is not correct either.
 
Okay. So the question is whether Oaky (or Americans in general) really hate taxes so much that they'd rather spend more money on an inferior product individually than get a better product for less money through taxes.
 
Ever hear of the term "you get what you pay for"?

Healthcare in America is expensive for a variety of reasons. Doctors have hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay back in college loans. Colleges are way too expensive and getting worse thanks to the collapse of the economy and new taxes. Hospitals pay millions in frivolous lawsuits. Insurance is limited to a state by state basis, allowing them to screw you and raise rates or deny coverage on a whim. Millions of illegal immigrants clog hospitals and never paying their due. Millions more citizens who are either totally ignorant about being proactive with their own health or just don't care.

Still, I'd rather have our current healthcare system than a European style universal system where you get treatment several months later and you have little or no choice about your doctor. I chose to work hard and save money and take care of myself in the process. A free universal system enourages laziness for not just the regular people but also the providers who don't make shit.
 
Mad Max RW said:
Still, I'd rather have our current healthcare system than a European style universal system where you get treatment several months later and you have little or no choice about your doctor.
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Too bad that's not how any European healthcare system is...
 
Mad Max RW said:
Ever hear of the term "you get what you pay for"?
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Americans don't. Your healthcare system is the most expensive per capita, yet it isn't close to being the best.

Mad Max RW said:
Still, I'd rather have our current healthcare system than a European style universal system where you get treatment several months later and you have little or no choice about your doctor.
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What healthcare system would you be talking about, then? Because outside of transplants (and I'm fairly sure there are waiting lists for that in the US too), no people wait months for treatment. Or even days.
The amazing thing about this universal healthcare debate is the tremendous ignorance of how any of those systems actually work.
 
Sander said:
Mad Max RW said:
Ever hear of the term "you get what you pay for"?
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Americans don't. Your healthcare system is the most expensive per capita, yet it isn't close to being the best.
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Then explain why all the rich foreigners and world leaders keep coming here for treatment.
 
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