About the Ghouls of Necropolis controversy

[ElloinmorninJ]

So, here's my idea. For a long while, there's been arguments on whether the Ghouls of Fallout are exclusive to Necropolis, from the 1,000 people who had taken shelter in Vault 12, or if they are from any place where radiation mutated humans.

So, here's my thoughts. In the original games, they implied all Ghouls were from Necropolis and slowly spread out too places like Gecko and Broken Hills, but in my opinion, making them this localized was a mistake. If there were less then a thousand ghouls all ready, and they got slaughtered by the supermutants, and then slowly killed over 80 years, and their population is non-renewable, there would only be a couple hundred ghouls left.

In my opinion, the simplest solution would be to just add more "Ghoul-creation" vaults scattered across the wasteland, along with Vault 12. Add one on the East Coast, Midwest, and anywhere else a population of ghouls is needed. Have it so that the reason for ghoulification is being exposed to low levels of radiation, over long amounts of time.

What do you guys think?

 

[ElloinmorninJ]

I say all this because I believe Ghouls offer a unique perspective of the Fallout-world, acting as a like the shadows of the pre-war, like nuclear ghosts. It's cool being able to talk to these ancient humans, I like it.

 

[Atomic Postman]

The current explanation of them being a highly remote possibility of freak mutation when a human is exposed to lethal levels of radiation works the most elegantly to propagate them beyond California. I think their handling could be different, but their "origin" within the context of the world is still fine

 

[Gizmojunk]

What do you guys think?

• "Ghoul-creation" Vaults
• Have it so that the reason for ghoulification is being exposed to low levels of radiation

I think that these should not exist, because becoming a ghoul should not be cause & effect, and not very common at all; once in a million fluke if that. It shouldn't happen at all, but somehow did.

The Necropolis vault door failed to close. The event (the fear & circumstance) happened during the war (I think that's a big part of it) —and the war never happened again.

Yes that means that ghouls number less than a thousand.

There are a million possibilities for the rest of the setting, but Ghouls should be original to Southern California.

 

[ElloinmorninJ]

• "Ghoul-creation" Vaults
• Have it so that the reason for ghoulification is being exposed to low levels of radiation

I think that these should not exist, because becoming a ghoul should not be cause & effect, and not very common at all; once in a million fluke if that. It shouldn't happen at all, but somehow did.

The Necropolis vault door failed to close. The event (the fear & circumstance) happened during the war (I think that's a big part of it) —and the war never happened again.

Yes that means that ghouls number less than a thousand.

There are a million possibilities for the rest of the setting, but Ghouls should be original to Southern California.

Yeah, but a lot of people (including myself) like characters like say, Raul. And I believe ghouls offer a unique perspective on the universe’s history. Ghouls are one of the Fallout universe’s premiere creatures, so I just wanted to throw in an idea that could appease both parties.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

So, here's my idea. For a long while, there's been arguments on whether the Ghouls of Fallout are exclusive to Necropolis, from the 1,000 people who had taken shelter in Vault 12, or if they are from any place where radiation mutated humans.

So, here's my thoughts. In the original games, they implied all Ghouls were from Necropolis and slowly spread out too places like Gecko and Broken Hills, but in my opinion, making them this localized was a mistake. If there were less then a thousand ghouls all ready, and they got slaughtered by the supermutants, and then slowly killed over 80 years, and their population is non-renewable, there would only be a couple hundred ghouls left.

In my opinion, the simplest solution would be to just add more "Ghoul-creation" vaults scattered across the wasteland, along with Vault 12. Add one on the East Coast, Midwest, and anywhere else a population of ghouls is needed. Have it so that the reason for ghoulification is being exposed to low levels of radiation, over long amounts of time.

What do you guys think?

Well I disagree with the “low radiation exposure over a long period of time”, I think it’s important that ghouls are created by being exposed to otherwise lethal levels of radiation but miraculously survive (either due to airborne FEV or just plain old luck/bad luck).

The idea of “ghoul-creation” vaults seems unnecessary as well. Vault 12 wasn’t built with the intention to create ghouls, it was built to study the effects of radiation on humans (despite the fact that several nuclear detonations on human populations had happened before the war, so everyone should already know what radiation does. The Vault 12 experiment was a shitty retcon in my opinion). How many expensive vaults with faulty blast doors are you willing to build just to study the effects of radiation, when in all likelihood the people living in these vaults will just die?

But I agree with the idea that ghouls are interesting and should be more widespread than just necropolis, and it’s fun to think up ways to make that work within the established canon.

 

[ElloinmorninJ]

Well I disagree with the “low radiation exposure over a long period of time”, I think it’s important that ghouls are created by being exposed to otherwise lethal levels of radiation but miraculously survive (either due to airborne FEV or just plain old luck/bad luck).

The idea of “ghoul-creation” vaults seems unnecessary as well. Vault 12 wasn’t built with the intention to create ghouls, it was built to study the effects of radiation on humans (despite the fact that several nuclear detonations on human populations had happened before the war, so everyone should already know what radiation does. The Vault 12 experiment was a shitty retcon in my opinion). How many expensive vaults with faulty blast doors are you willing to build just to study the effects of radiation, when in all likelihood the people living in these vaults will just die?

But I agree with the idea that ghouls are interesting and should be more widespread than just necropolis, and it’s fun to think up ways to make that work within the established canon.

Tbh, making Vault 12 was dumb and in the first place. Everyone knows what radiation does already. But, if there doing an experiment anyway, shouldn’t they do multiple trials?

 

[Gizmojunk]

But I agree with the idea that ghouls are interesting and should be more widespread than just necropolis, and it’s fun to think up ways to make that work within the established canon.

This means active retcon; one detrimental to the established concept. Ghouls are not something to be made by recipe. They are a living reminder of pre-war; they are basically Fallout's equivalent to fantasy elves who remember the golden age. Like anti-elves... nearly immortal, but slow, stiff legged, and ugly; stinky too, if Cassidy is believed.

 

[TorontoReign]

That retcon already happened. There are Ghouls in China, there are Ghouls in Russia, there are Ghouls in Egypt, there are Ghouls in Antarctica...

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

In many ways the whole Vault Social Experiments idea did not always work out for the better.
Would have worked better if Vault 12 was simply written down as a "failure due to an unforeseen technical error."

Tim Cain at the time was heavily inspired by the X Files if I recall correctly.
I think I might have just ditched the whole experiment stuff and just gone with that the Enclave expected most Vaults to fail except for the control Vaults as the project suffered from various problems during the time they were made, and the control Vaults only existed to ensure that the Enclave could check how long people could survive in a Vault for their space program and to have access to a pre war genetic pool outside their own people.
None of that stuff such as gassing the inhabitants with a drug that would make them go insane (what did they expect? people not going insane?) or only holodiscs with the shows and sketches of a very bad comedian (did they expect that all the Vault Dwellers would develop terrible comedy routines?)

I do want there to be more Ghouls than just the population of Vault 12 (such as the Reservation) but at the other hand I want them also to be unique or a bit special. I hate the whole radiation zombies crap Bethesda turned most of them into.
We could still have some kind of feral human mutants without making them zombies.

 

[TorontoReign]

I actually liked the redneck mutants from Fallout 3. Not sure why they didn't develop them...oh right.

 

[Gizmojunk]

That retcon already happened. There are Ghouls in China, there are Ghouls in Russia, there are Ghouls in Egypt, there are Ghouls in Antarctica...

Bethesda? (I don't count, or even notice them anymore.)

I do want there to be more Ghouls than just the population of Vault 12 (such as the Reservation) but at the other hand I want them also to be unique or a bit special.

Canonically... what player character kills a thousand ghouls? By the time of Fallout 2, they have wandered all over the place. In keeping with the humor... like Lenny's father (Coffin Willie), and Woody (in the Den), there could have been ghoul stowaways on caravans or expeditions to almost anywhere, and so have a ghoul or two in any story.

 

[TorontoReign]

Which makes debating lore totally pointless but yeah I am here too.

 

[Risewild]

I just came by to mention that ghouls are not the only pre-war characters in Fallout.
Fallout offers plenty of options for having pre-war characters. In the classic games we have the Ghouls but we also have FEV mutations like Harold and Richard.

Then in Fallout New Vegas we have technological advances that let pre-war characters still exist, like Mr House or the scientists over at the Big Empty. We also have the nearly immortal ghost people, those are also pre-war people.

In Fallout 3 Super Mutants can also be pre-war humans. Fawkes was a pre-war human that turned into a Super Mutant, for example.

In Fallout 3 (Mothership Zeta DLC) and Fallout 4 we have cryogenics, so it's possible to have pre-war people that were in a cryogenesis stasis. Worth noticing that Fallout 2 had a cut location (EPA) where the player could wake up a cryogenic sleeping pre-war character (Kitsune) to become a companion.

FO4 also has the Cabot family. A pre-war family that is kept from aging due to some magical alien helmet or something.

So in the Fallout IP we already have a lot of ways to have pre-war characters without them being ghouls:

• Through FEV exposure
• Turning into Super Mutants
• Technology to extend human lifespan
• Technology to transfer human brains and conscience into a robotic body
• Cryogenic Stasis
• Mysterious Sierra Madre cloud
  
• Magical alien technology

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Wait, Fawkes was pre-war? Was he just locked in that room for 200 years then?

 

[TorontoReign]

Pretty sure he was if I remember correctly. He was one of the interesting parts of Fallout 3, but they didn't really do anything with him.

 

[Risewild]

Wait, Fawkes was pre-war? Was he just locked in that room for 200 years then?

Yep. Here is what he says about his past:

The Lone Wanderer: Do you remember who you were?
Fawkes: I don't remember enough to tell you everything about my former self. My metamorphosis destroyed a good deal of my long term memory. However, I can recall being in this place when it wasn't the macabre laboratory that it's become. I remember walking around this place and seeing other humans in white lab coats and blue jumpsuits. I wish I could find out more, but the personnel information for the Vault wasn't in the mainframe for some reason. I feel like my identity is so close to me... I can almost see myself as a human but can't recollect the details. It's maddening.

Fawkes being prewar means that another thing about Fallout 3 makes no sense. Super Mutant Behemoths make no sense thanks to Fawkes, because East Coast Super Mutants get bigger the older they are, until they grow so much they become Behemoths. But Fawkes is one of the oldest Super Mutants in FO3, so he should be as large as a Behemoth himself.

 

[Gizmojunk]

They are inept outside of the technology, and don't give a damn about it anyway. Didn't Emil admit that they hadn't thought about the ending (Fawkes being radiation proof) until it was too late?

Their market is not the detail oriented crowd; their market is—"Did you see that car blow up!? Dude!".... and they know it.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

I have to agree that the Vault 12 being an experiment explanation is lame. It would far more sense if we found out that Ghouls had already happened before the war, and Vault Tec wanted to see if they could replicate that.

(in fact, with all the nuclear power and even implied limited nuclear exchange, I think it makes a lot of sense if a few ghouls already happened before the war)

I think the real problem is that we lack new species of mutants. Its all Ghouls and Super Mutants. I think they're already kinda tired and trite.

The ones that aren't one or the other, are all rabid sterile monsters and aberrations - Ghost People, Swampfolk, Pitt Trogs, Marked Men, etc. Even FEV mutants are rehashed as hell, its almost always the same stuff just in different varieties - it would be interesting to see radically different FEV strains from quarantine towns result in radically different human-like creatures.

(I actually love the Ghost People for just how freaky and mysterious they are. And the implication that there's more to them than we see)

It would be interesting to see more mutations akin to the Beast Lords, the Slags, the Van Buren Trogs, etc. Even something relatively simple could be interesting if done well, like "these people are all super-intelligent, but they're kind of genius savants", or people with cat-like eyes that can see in the dark. Or people who actually look like horrifying monsters but are sentient, so they always go around shrouded in heavy robes and covered from head to toe, in order to interact with human society.

 

[ElloinmorninJ]

• "Ghoul-creation" Vaults
• Have it so that the reason for ghoulification is being exposed to low levels of radiation

I think that these should not exist, because becoming a ghoul should not be cause & effect, and not very common at all; once in a million fluke if that. It shouldn't happen at all, but somehow did.

The Necropolis vault door failed to close. The event (the fear & circumstance) happened during the war (I think that's a big part of it) —and the war never happened again.

Yes that means that ghouls number less than a thousand.

There are a million possibilities for the rest of the setting, but Ghouls should be original to Southern California.

Yeah, but the games want to have ghouls in places outside of California