Am I in the minority when I say I'm not bothered by Super Mutants in Fallout 3?

[Sn1p3r187]

While I do know that most people give shit for the existence of Super Mutants in the Capitol Wasteland. I'm more inclined to be infuriated by the existence of Super Mutants in the Commonwealth (to which IMO was really a cheap copout more than anything and makes zero sense). I'm not so much bothered by there being an entire Vault dedicated to FEV research. In fact, I think if it were did right. It would've opened up so much more for the idea of how super mutants were operating with an airborne variant of the FEV that was actually more unstable and sporadic for mutation that for what was initially presented by the original brand at Mariposa Military Base. If anything, this airborne/unstable variant could've been used to say and play to the idea that Capitol Wasteland mutants are far more dangerous and unstable than their west coast cousins. It could actually make a bit more sense that Mariposa military base wasn't the only research center dedicated to FEV. Knowing Vault-Tec. It could actually make sense they had contacts in the military to develop Bioweapons in a Vault. Of course Bethesda shitted the bed by not developing that idea more and adding to the idea that the east coast mutants have/had central leadership until Fallout 4. Which is also a copout and a sorry excuse I might add. Within the year they spent developing F3. They could've at least developed the concept and ideals of Vault 87 super mutants as a faction far better.

 

[Blastwave Dave]

Never bothered me that much, neither did the new take on The Brotherhood. I find them somewhat lazy though, you never really get insight into F3's mutants, they just exist to be orcs for enemy variety. Like most things Bethesda writes, theres potential, but everything is boiled down to shooting at the end of the day.

 

[John Cassidy Joestar]

FEV is the magic writer's gateway to justify sci-fi elements in a somewhat grounded world with coherent in universe history, physics and biology.
My only problem with Fallout 3 is that they didnt had the guts (rather they didnt want too) to develop new mutants and new stuff based on FEV. They only put Super Mutants again but dumber and less subtetly, they act like W40k orcs without their charm and they dont have a clear hierarchy or even a culture. They just exist as stuff to be shot, no world building, no layers of thought were put in their design. Its just disapointing the more I think of it.

 

[Gizmojunk]

? Serious?

FEV didn't make the ghouls ...it's debated, but not mentioned in the game afaik.
Fallout's gameworld has the laws of physics bent to their expectation and fear of radiation and the atom bombs. That part is not FEV related.

It is the future they thought about...but blown to hell. The ghouls are essentially Fallout's anti-elves; green psuedo-immortals who remember the age long past, but ugly and not at all deft or agile.

 

[Norzan]

The main issue with Super Mutants being on the East Coast, besides making no sense, it's just that it's lame. You have this whole new landscape never touched upon by any game before in the series and what you do? You populate it with shit that already exists. It's lame as fuck and really boring. It makes the map of the US look really small in terms of scope.

Obviously the reason they are in it, along with everything else recycled from the first two games, is the fact that Bethesda are lazy assholes. Why come up with new shit when most of the work was already done by previous games?

 

[Gizmojunk]

The reason is brand identification; remove the recycled bits... and what's Fallouty about it? Nothing; it's a frankenshooter. It's the ultimate 'Me Too!'... before the meaning of the phrase was taken over to mean something else.

 

[John Cassidy Joestar]

? Serious?

FEV didn't make the ghouls ...it's debated, but not mentioned in the game afaik.
Fallout's gameworld has the laws of physics bent to their expectation and fear of radiation and the atom bombs. That part is not FEV related.

It is the future they thought about...but blown to hell. The ghouls are essentially Fallout's anti-elves; green psuedo-immortals who remember the age long past, but ugly and not at all deft or agile.

Its debated sure, Tim Cain said it was the FEV, others said it was radiation but Harold is a special case. I think Avelonne said that some are irradiated and other from Necropolis are a mix of radiation and FEV like Harold. I could be wrong though so dont quote me on that.
They also had creative liberties when it came to radiation with Fallout 2 and onwards but I digress, the FEV was meant to allow many things like Deathclaws, molerats or Wannamingos to exist in the lore. Fallout 3's writer staff could've worked on that and seeing the concept art from Adam Adamowicz they could've go for more fucked up mutants but they didnt.

 

[Gizmojunk]

I do not believe that Deathclaws and Wannamingos are FEV creatures. I think they are both engineered biological weapons. The Deathclaw was said [somewhere] to be based on Jackson's Chameleon & Ape DNA. The Wanamingos were said to have an engineered [to be very short] lifespan; IIRC.

 

[Morgan_]

It doesn't really botther me either. I would have just liked it to be done better though. If anything I think I would have made them much dumber, more akin to animals and more hideous like the concept art linked above. Bethesda has switched gears to playing things safe as has even been directly stated by some of their lead people like Ken Rolston when talking about the weirdness of Morrowind and the plan to move away from that going forward. F3 mutants show this attitude quite well.

 

[John Cassidy Joestar]

I do not believe that Deathclaws and Wannamingos are FEV creatures. I think they are both engineered biological weapons. The Deathclaw was said [somewhere] to be based on Jackson's Chameleon & Ape DNA. The Wanamingos were said to have an engineered [to be very short] lifespan; IIRC.

It is written in the Fallout 2's strategy guide that Deathclaws were refined with FEV by the Master apparently, but like you said the governement started with Jackson's Chameleon as a basis.
However, Wanamingos are purely FEV monsters from the EPA according to the Fallout Bible. They have an internal biological clock too, hence the very short life span.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Its debated sure, Tim Cain said it was the FEV, others said it was radiation

If I remember correctly Tim Cain said ghouls were created by radiation. Chris Taylor said it was radiation plus FEV.

 

[Ugly Kid]

I have my own theory on ghoul creation. Ignoring Bethesda lore of course.

In Fallout 1 and 2, the only ghouls in existence are from Necropolis and were treated as one time things.

Van Buren would've (sort of) retconned that with the Reservation.

In New Vegas the only ghouls who definitely aren't from either location are Raul and Dean Domino.

I think a similarity could be drawn between all cases. A group of people huddled in a fallout shelter, yet the fallout shelter fails.

For Raul it's never explicitly stated how or when he became ghoulified, so my headcanon is his family had a makeshift bunker that didn't work.

I can't remember whether Domino stayed in the Sierra Madre since the bombs or if he found his way there after. If he was always there then perhaps everyone who was present want sent to a bunker. If he wasn't always there then maybe Hollywood people had a special bunker?

Either way this explanation wouldn't contradict anything from classic Fallout or Van Buren. It would keep the ghouls rare, special, but at the same time allowing them to be present in all games.

 

[Atomic Postman]

I have my own theory on ghoul creation. Ignoring Bethesda lore of course.

In Fallout 1 and 2, the only ghouls in existence are from Necropolis and were treated as one time things.

Van Buren would've (sort of) retconned that with the Reservation.

In New Vegas the only ghouls who definitely aren't from either location are Raul and Dean Domino.

I think a similarity could be drawn between all cases. A group of people huddled in a fallout shelter, yet the fallout shelter fails.

For Raul it's never explicitly stated how or when he became ghoulified, so my headcanon is his family had a makeshift bunker that didn't work.

I can't remember whether Domino stayed in the Sierra Madre since the bombs or if he found his way there after. If he was always there then perhaps everyone who was present want sent to a bunker. If he wasn't always there then maybe Hollywood people had a special bunker?

Either way this explanation wouldn't contradict anything from classic Fallout or Van Buren. It would keep the ghouls rare, special, but at the same time allowing them to be present in all games.

With Raul it's pretty heavily implied it happened whilst he and his sister were living in the irradiated ruins of Mexico City, to the point it might be explicit. Been a while but I recall something about his sister treating him.

 

[Kaptin]

Boy, Ghouls look like you would look if you eat some rads from your irradiated T-rex toys from Novac, Raul as Postman has stated earlier hasn't been exposed to FEV but simply turned into ghoul because he survived that process without dying and apparently being Ghoul is like being at state between being alive and dying.

Super Mutants were fucking stupid in FO3 just lazy Bethesda attempt to sell Fallout 3 to old fans by bringing factions like the Enclave by ignoring lore and fucking up the timeline it's been 200 years since the bombs dropped and people still live in shacks and scavenge food, when on the west coast we already see established republic where people can live a decent life. They even made FEV a common thing like if it was something you could buy from your local pharmacy store when FEV was one of the most secret pre-war government experiments.

Also, don't bother thinking about it too much. Bethesda fanboys are going to defend Fallout 3 to the last breath, ignoring that Bethesda has destroyed several original factions, and it's not just BoS.

 

[Canagan]

The biggest issue I have with Super Mutants being anywhere outside of The Master's army was the little nugget of detail with how he created them; it took trial and error with FEV dipping and controlling the variables of mutations to induce pure Mutants who received all the 'benefits' of the goop, and even so many mutants became stupid on a Forrest Gump tier just because of previous exposures to radiation. This does not count in the outright failures of the process -- of which I am sure existed like The Master himself. Speaking of The Master and FEV he was a regular old wastelander who'd walked the wastes and I'm sure had gotten irradiated at least once in his life, and the airborne FEV probably induced some subtle mutations by itself that would have interfered terribly with the dipping he accidentally received.

Why that's an issue if that the conditions to make mutants who are not twisted amalgams of flesh and bone who gooify and stick to the floors is a narrow scientific field of study, and I'm unsure to the degree of capability these other mutant maker centers had. It was never meant for whole body dipping, as I'm sure people are aware, and the strings of testing were minimal exposure to create these super soldiers; heightened immune systems, strength and reflexes, retention and general intelligence, the works; yet they remained 'human'. What The Master made was a wild-card 'warranty-breaking' procedure that was never intended, and I can't see how other places could replicate it unless some writers excused it by saying "this FEV is different, so hah".

As much as it was unoriginal in Fo3/4 though, they did have a whole vault dedicated to FEV research, and The Institute did have a very short foray into FEV research so there's a chance, but there is literally no reason for their appearance in 76, for the previously mentioned points of the process behind making the buggers in the first place. The problem there is those arguments rely on the writing equivalent of excuses to make it work, all guised as service to the original games. So I have problems with super mutants showing up in later games simply because of the complete failure of lore continuity. That, and the wasteland needs to be more than Brotherhood, super mutants, and radscorpions from coast to bloody coast.

 

[Kaptin]

The biggest issue I have with Super Mutants being anywhere outside of The Master's army was the little nugget of detail with how he created them; it took trial and error with FEV dipping and controlling the variables of mutations to induce pure Mutants who received all the 'benefits' of the goop, and even so many mutants became stupid on a Forrest Gump tier just because of previous exposures to radiation. This does not count in the outright failures of the process -- of which I am sure existed like The Master himself. Speaking of The Master and FEV he was a regular old wastelander who'd walked the wastes and I'm sure had gotten irradiated at least once in his life, and the airborne FEV probably induced some subtle mutations by itself that would have interfered terribly with the dipping he accidentally received.

Why that's an issue if that the conditions to make mutants who are not twisted amalgams of flesh and bone who gooify and stick to the floors is a narrow scientific field of study, and I'm unsure to the degree of capability these other mutant maker centers had. It was never meant for whole body dipping, as I'm sure people are aware, and the strings of testing were minimal exposure to create these super soldiers; heightened immune systems, strength and reflexes, retention and general intelligence, the works; yet they remained 'human'. What The Master made was a wild-card 'warranty-breaking' procedure that was never intended, and I can't see how other places could replicate it unless some writers excused it by saying "this FEV is different, so hah".

As much as it was unoriginal in Fo3/4 though, they did have a whole vault dedicated to FEV research, and The Institute did have a very short foray into FEV research so there's a chance, but there is literally no reason for their appearance in 76, for the previously mentioned points of the process behind making the buggers in the first place. The problem there is those arguments rely on the writing equivalent of excuses to make it work, all guised as service to the original games. So I have problems with super mutants showing up in later games simply because of the complete failure of lore continuity. That, and the wasteland needs to be more than Brotherhood, super mutants, and radscorpions from coast to bloody coast.

Because their writing is ridiculous, Super mutants in self-respected lore came from Maribosa base it was the main and only research facility and it took decades for the Master to create his green ogres he started on small animals and ended up with humans he lured there. Yet Bethesda "exceptional" writing fucking distributes FEV into vaults. The institute somehow also has samples of FEV.

How can pre-war MIT scientists even get access to FEV which was top secret classified research? They even made another huge factory in fallout 76 where FEV was a known thing and people that worked there casually talked about it and how can a bunch of Super mutants who are on forest Gump level of intelligence create new mutants when it took almost 100 years for a heavily mutated genius and psyker to do that? Bethesda, instead of being creative, just reused old ideas because they are too lazy and incompetent to even come out with something new.

 

[Canagan]

How can pre-war MIT scientists even get access to FEV which was top secret classified research? They even made another huge factory in fallout 76 where FEV was a known thing and people that worked there casually talked about it and how can a bunch of Super mutants who are on forest Gump level of intelligence create new mutants when it took almost 100 years for a heavily mutated genius and psyker to do that?.

On the former I have to agree; The Institute shouldn't have been capable of grabbing FEV, yet the Vaults could be argued to be possible if we assume Military and Gov't were neck and neck with Vault-Tec. Problem there though is the obvious uber-classified level FEV was on, and relations between pre-Enclave entities and Vault-Tec were strenuous at best if memory serves. The point on 76 I personally didn't know (mostly because I refuse to play that game) but that is a special kind of stupid, and the echoed point of a century of work and genius of Richard Gray (I believes that's him name) produced what could have been a fluke to the original researchers who worked with FEV in the first place. They wanted regular humans but souped up, to echo my previous point.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Am I in the minority when I say I'm not bothered by Super Mutants in Fallout 3?

Everything in FO3 is bothersome; they got nothing right... they didn't care to.
Many of the developers had never played the series; some had never heard of it.

Emil & Pete must have seen it; they were both game reviewers for the Adrenaline Vault at the time. So full blame to them both; they don't get a pass. They are mindless vandals.

Ah memories...

Question: Dungeonkeeper was a 2d sprite game with a 3d backdrop; but it let you play FPP as well.
DK2 was full 3d, but kept the original vantage, and kept the FPP mode.
[both modes were called for in both games at different times, and the FPP combat worked well with the Isometric]

Was this approach ever considered for Fallout 3? Clearly the engine can support Isometric 'like' game play. So why abandon outright, what could have been blended together if intended?

[Emil Pagliarulo ~ https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/emil... ]
Gizmo -- Honestly, no, we never really considered making the game like that. And man, I loved me some Dungeon Keeper! But we really saw the game as third/first-person. Me, I prefer first-person by a longshot. It's my preferred perspective for any game. I'm a sucker for immersion, and for me, first-person is the way to achieve that; it just so happens I work with a bunch of people who largely feel the same way, and want to make the same kinds of games.​

At some point it seemed that Emil began logging off if I logged on.

 

[Norzan]

I honestly always found it really stupid when people claim that FPP is better for immersion than any other prespective, or it's the only way to achieve it (Emil definitely meant to imply that). It's not, it's how the game is made. FPP isn't more immersive by default compared to other perspectives.

I have played plenty of FPS games with really poor immersion and a lot of great top down isometric games with fantastic immersion. From where you looking at from is NOT the only way to create immersion.

The true reason Bethesda went for a FPP is because the last several games used that perspective. It's what they were used to at that point. That, and they weren't interested in isometric view in general, not because it might less be immersive.

 

[Kaptin]

I honestly always found it really stupid when people claim that FPP is better for immersion than any other prespective, or it's the only way to achieve it (Emil definitely meant to imply that). It's not, it's how the game is made. FPP isn't more immersive by default compared to other perspectives.

I have played plenty of FPS games with really poor immersion and a lot of great top down isometric games with fantastic immersion. From where you looking at from is NOT the only way to create immersion.

The true reason Bethesda went for a FPP is because the last several games used that perspective. It's what they were used to at that point. That, and they weren't interested in isometric view in general, not because it might less be immersive.

People who claim how fo1 and fo2 lack immersion because it's not 3D are stupid because there are so many games that are 2D and got outstanding immersion: Blasphemous is 2D game and has an amazing atmosphere and immersion those outcries about 2D being bad are just Bethesda fanboys.