DC BoS vs. 'General Bos' (informative)

[FOvet]

I have seen people at many forums mistakenly believe that FO3 'ruined' the BoS, that they portrayed the BoS as 'saving the wastelnand' or 'saints' when they really aren't like that at all. What I want to do with this topic is explain a concept that so many people seem to miss (though how is beyond me).

There are actually TWO factions of the BoS in FO3--not one. There are the 'outcasts' and the one the wanderer from V101 interacts with most--hereby referred to as Lyon's BoS. This is made abundantly clear with conversations with Elder Lyons and the head of the outcasts (can't remember his name). It is clearly stated that Lyons 'went native,' and abandoned the BoS true mission to attain ancient prewar tech.

So, while Lyon's BoS is taking on protecting the citizens of the DC wasteland, he is a splinter faction of the origional brotherhood. The outcasts are actually the TRUE BoS, continuing on with their mission to dig up tech.

Those who say that FO3 misrepresented the BoS need to realize this. I think those who make this claim are mistaking Lyon's BoS for the BoS as a whole--but Lyon's has gone against BoS tradition, effectively creating a aplinter group. The BoS are not represented as a bunch of goody-two-shoes who go out of their way to save DC; quite the opposite, the outcasts were made to look like villainous bastards.

On that note, the BoS ARE trying to 'save' the wasteland; just in a very roundabout way. They want to preserve society (and protect it) by preserving pre-war tech and keep the dangerous stuff out of the wrong hands...NOT a bad idea. After all, would YOU want raiders walking around clad in power armor and wielding pulse rifles? I didn't think so.

So, remember: Lyon's BoS is a SPLINTER FACTION of the true BoS.

 

[Sub-Human]

So why are the Outcasts, the true Brotherhood, called the Outcasts, and Lyon's Brotherhood is shoved right into your face cause, well, Todd Howard?

 

[Walpknut]

Nobody eevr questioned or even missed the part where they were a splinter faction. Is just that the idea of a splinter faction was handled very poorly turnning them into Pure White Knights that you HAD to side with, one element that adds to the stupidity of the main story of FO3.

 

[FOvet]

Nobody eevr questioned or even missed the part where they were a splinter faction. Is just that the idea of a splinter faction was handled very poorly turnning them into Pure White Knights that you HAD to side with, one element that adds to the stupidity of the main story of FO3.

I've seen instances here and other forums where people *have* missed that part, or at very least fail to mention it. And on that note, how is being forced to side with Lyons any worse than in FO2 being forced to side *against* the Enclave. It would have been fun to be able to work for them, but that simply wasn't the story being told. Even in remarkably non-linear games, some things have to be static.

As far as the outcasts being labeled so, this was a label given to them by Elder Lyons--and they kept it as, and I quote "an F***K you to the old man." They wear being labeled as outcasts with pride, because to the Outcasts, it is a symbol of thier loyalty to the BoS; all of this is, of course, mentioned.

How is the splinter group handled poorly? It is not unreasonable to think that a man like Lyons, torn between loyalty and what is 'morally' correct, would choose to side with his principles rather than the group at large; this has happened many times in our own history. It is not only plausible, but probable that members of the BoS would eventually splinter off. I'm surpised this didn't happen with the Enclave, to be honest.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

As far as the outcasts being labeled so, this was a label given to them by Elder Lyons--and they kept it as, and I quote "an F***K you to the old man." They wear being labeled as outcasts with pride, because to the Outcasts, it is a symbol of thier loyalty to the BoS; all of this is, of course, mentioned.

And it's very convenient and frankly not very believable for a faction so devoted to their cause.

How is the splinter group handled poorly? It is not unreasonable to think that a man like Lyons, torn between loyalty and what is 'morally' correct, would choose to side with his principles rather than the group at large; this has happened many times in our own history

The problem is the change in their attitude, not them deciding to help the wastelander. Going from "normal BoS members" to "white knights all about honor and Steel Be With You".

 

[FOvet]

As far as the outcasts being labeled so, this was a label given to them by Elder Lyons--and they kept it as, and I quote "an F***K you to the old man." They wear being labeled as outcasts with pride, because to the Outcasts, it is a symbol of thier loyalty to the BoS; all of this is, of course, mentioned.

And it's very convenient and frankly not very believable for a faction so devoted to their cause.

Really? What about the Enclave? We NEVER see splinter Enclave groups, because they inspire/demand loyalty. Look at the Ceaser's Legion and the NCR: their members are die-hard loyal to them as well. Look at Nazi germany: there were no Nazi splinter groups. It is not unheard of at all to see such faction loyalty and devotion. We've seen it throughout human history, and we still see it to this day. The "outcasts" are actually very loyal BoS members trying to make their way back west to report Elder Lyons and rejoin their clan.

Quote:



How is the splinter group handled poorly? It is not unreasonable to think that a man like Lyons, torn between loyalty and what is 'morally' correct, would choose to side with his principles rather than the group at large; this has happened many times in our own history



The problem is the change in their attitude, not them deciding to help the wastelander. Going from "normal BoS members" to "white knights all about honor and Steel Be With You".

The attitude change isn't unreasonable either. Put yourself in Lyons postion for a moment. He is stationed in DC, probably the worst place he's ever seen (it's certainly the worst place in a fallout game as far as how the citizens are farring). He sees all the super mutants threatening the citizens, the psychotic talon company mercs, the rather large number of raiders...he has seen things like this before, no doubt...and image yourself leading the DC branch of the BoS. You have all this tech at your disposal--the ability to do some good for the people. Circumstances *often* change people's attitudes, and having seen everything Lyons has would definately be an influence. It is very plausible that the circumstances in DC was his 'breaking point,' where he finally decided to stand up, ethically.

Lyons himself is a charismatic leader. So is his daughter: tough, but very likeable. It is no small wonder that people would choose to follow him, even though they are going against the main BoS orders. People who disagree with Lyons sticks by his side either A) because they like him, or B) because he is still leader of the DC chapter of the BoS, and they see disobaying his orders like the outcasts as treason, whatever the reason.

Finally, look how far away they are from the western BoS. Being so far away very well may have lead people who only remained loyal out of fear, to stand by Lyons in his rebelion, instead of joining the Outcasts.

 

[SnapSlav]

I don't think he meant the attitude change in Lyons, nor the following as a sense of duty, but rather the attitude change of THE Brotherhood Members you encounter, as a whole. Outcasts derisively sneer "local" at you while carrying on with their mission. It's a bit off from what the Brotherhood really was like (they just ignored you in FO2, or gave you the cold shoulder but not without some concern for random waster's lives in FO1), but fit for this game's circumstances... sorta.

But the "White Knights" literally use cutesy phrases like "Steel be with you" (as he mentioned), which DOES seem like a radical, and wholly irrational change. Some of them are certainly newer, wasteland recruits (which their close-door policy at the time of the Wanderer's arrival just simply contradicts, so that's an error that was never addressed), but most of them ARE veterans who made the trek across the wastes who grew up in and received all their training/indoctrination from Lost Hills. For these conditioned soldiers to NOT ONLY knowingly decide to stay with their AWOL commander, but also shift to a "noble" persona is just unrealistic.

Given the problems with the rest of the game's lore contradictions and unexplained peculiarities, combined with these problems with the "White Knights", this is probably why the East Coast Brotherhood is regarded with such disdain. Maybe they COULD have naturally occurred, but not how Bethesda portrayed them.

 

[Hassknecht]

As far as the outcasts being labeled so, this was a label given to them by Elder Lyons--and they kept it as, and I quote "an F***K you to the old man." They wear being labeled as outcasts with pride, because to the Outcasts, it is a symbol of thier loyalty to the BoS; all of this is, of course, mentioned.

And it's very convenient and frankly not very believable for a faction so devoted to their cause.

Really? What about the Enclave? We NEVER see splinter Enclave groups, because they inspire/demand loyalty. Look at the Ceaser's Legion and the NCR: their members are die-hard loyal to them as well. Look at Nazi germany: there were no Nazi splinter groups. It is not unheard of at all to see such faction loyalty and devotion. We've seen it throughout human history, and we still see it to this day. The "outcasts" are actually very loyal BoS members trying to make their way back west to report Elder Lyons and rejoin their clan.

I think you misunderstood Stanislao.
It's weird for die-hard loyal Brotherhood members to pride themselves being Outcasts and repaint their armors and so on.
In this case it might be understandable as the Lyons-Brotherhood used the original paints and symbols, but it's still weird.
The Enclave is too small to have splinter groups, but considering the disdain some of the remnants in New Vegas had for their actions it's reasonable to assume that with more time, there would have been splinter groups and defectors as well.
The NCR inspires the least loyalty, so it's very reasonable that there are segragationist movements further west, and that there are quite a lot of defectors.
Caesar's Legion will fall apart as soon Caesar himself is gone.
Oh, and just FYI: Of course there were Nazi splinter groups.

 

[SnapSlav]

The Enclave is too small to have splinter groups, but considering the disdain some of the remnants in New Vegas had for their actions it's reasonable to assume that with more time, there would have been splinter groups and defectors as well.

Not necessarily. Groups like the Vagrants' leader and many others who were implied were clearly defectors from the Enclave well before the Oil Rig's destruction. Their existence was natural, because many of them maintained conscious awareness of their actions, despite their FIERCE indoctrination/brainwashing. Even if there weren't such defectors, it wouldn't have been an issue with "time", because while the Enclave's formation as the group we see in FO2 wasn't strictly specified, the group itself existed from the Pre-War days on the Oil Rig the whole time. They probably didn't have splinter factions for the same reason Vault 13 stayed together until the Water Chip Incident: they had nowhere else to go. Only once they began expanding and establishing mainland bases like Navarro did the groups begin to break off. But they didn't keep their Power Armors or advanced weapons with them, they discarded them so they could blend in. This was also the case with the Remnants from New Vegas.

Oh, and just FYI: Of course there were Nazi splinter groups.

Thus the legendary Operation Valkyrie, among many other attempted coups.

 

[Oppen]

How is the splinter group handled poorly? It is not unreasonable to think that a man like Lyons, torn between loyalty and what is 'morally' correct, would choose to side with his principles rather than the group at large; this has happened many times in our own history. It is not only plausible, but probable that members of the BoS would eventually splinter off. I'm surpised this didn't happen with the Enclave, to be honest.

I see your point, but I can't see how someone who is not really that loyal to the principles of the order he is in can get to be an elder of that order. It makes no sense for me. Also, morals are too dependent on your context. You take someone grew in a xenophobic family and with no contact with differente people, and chances are he will consider racism to be "good". And someone who gets to be an elder in the BoS, is likely to think the correct approach to save the wastes is to keep BoS with its old laws and with its old priorities.
I would expect a splinter cell coming from initiates, not from elders.

On the other hand, in another post someone says there were no splinter cells from the Enclave, which is false. First, Autumn disobeys Eden direct order of letting the Lone Wanderer live, in the same game. Also, the scientist who designed the modified FEV does stands by his personal ethics in Fallout 2 if you pass a speech check. It's not a cell who divides but an individual, but it's the same point. Of course, you will never convince the president, because someone who is not sure in his belief of the target of the organization couldn't get even near the top of its management (and that's my point with Elder Lyons).

 

[FOvet]

I just love reading the differing thoughts and opinions on this subject. I am reading them, even if not responding to every message. While it seems I'm not swaying anyone into seeing FO3s Lyons BoS as a likely event, and therefor out of place, it is fun to see the reasons behind it. Keep the debate coming guys, I love reading the differing views, so long as it maintains this level of civility.

 

[TorontoReign]

How is the splinter group handled poorly? It is not unreasonable to think that a man like Lyons, torn between loyalty and what is 'morally' correct, would choose to side with his principles rather than the group at large; this has happened many times in our own history. It is not only plausible, but probable that members of the BoS would eventually splinter off. I'm surpised this didn't happen with the Enclave, to be honest.

On the other hand, in another post someone says there were no splinter cells from the Enclave, which is false. First, Autumn disobeys Eden direct order of letting the Lone Wanderer live, in the same game. Also, the scientist who designed the modified FEV does stands by his personal ethics in Fallout 2 if you pass a speech check. .

The Remnants in FNV are another splinter cell group. I do expect to see more seperate groups in the future. I have several ideas for some myself...


I agree with some of the others in regards to the East Coast BoS. The whole thing was handled very poorly. That is the reason I disliked them anyway. They were so far removed from the original BoS that it felt like too much of a leap for them to completely change their belief system, with only a small minority refusing to go along with Lyons plans and forming the Outcasts - At least for the reasons they presented. The Outcasts were barely developed plot wise while Lyons "Knights of The Round" were turned into saviors of the wasteland. I understand them needing to destroy the Enclave, it makes sense if you covet technology, but that wasn't even their reason for doing so - They felt like helping people get water and ridding the Capitol Wastes of the mutant/Enclave problem. Plus they don't even try very hard to reconnect with the old BoS because of what? You can make it from California to Dc, but can't make it back? Why not use the giant Enclave Sand Crawler to make it there? Why not use one of the Enclave vertibirds? More important things to do I suppose. Reminds me of Fallout Tactics in many ways actually.

They trekked across the country, through very hostile territory, with an important mission while being forced to recruit fresh initiates, which they normally don't do, and they say screw it once they get there? It is plausible that Lyons might change his mind once he saw how things were on the East Coast, but the way they presented it was unbelievable. My suspension of belief only goes so far. To be honest though, Lyons BoS wasn't the worse part of the game.

Frankly it is absurd to suggest that anyone missed the Outcasts in the game considering one of the DLC's is based around them.

If Lyons BoS reconnected with the other branches...they would be a very strong group with large amounts of technology that few possess, yet Lyons has his priorities all wrong. If the BoS would just get their shit together they might survive.

Imo it boils down to the Fallout 3 BoS being handled poorly. At least New Vegas did the BoS right.

 

[FOvet]

Lyons can never reconnect to the BoS though--he burned that bridge by "going native." If he were to try, he'd be executed for treason; so now he's stuck.

 

[TorontoReign]

Lyons can never reconnect to the BoS though--he burned that bridge by "going native." If he were to try, he'd be executed for treason; so now he's stuck.

Which makes it even worse. Do you think the East Coast BoS would refuse an offering of all that tech scavenged from the Dc conflict? If Lyons apologized or offered up some kind of deal, maybe they could work out some kind of mutual agreement. Lyons could find plenty of other problems to deal with in the wastland, but he chooses abandoning those who raised him and casting out the loyal "Outcasts". What a dick move ...

Lyons BoS doesn't even deserve to carry the BoS name.


I understand why he did it, and why Bethesda did it, but I don't particularly care for it.

I guess I don't like traitors. Lyons is a traitor.

 

[FOvet]

So you would choose the morally inferior "loyalty" even having the power/technology to make a real difference in the Capitol Wasteland? I actually applauded Lyons for taking a stand against his superiors, who hoard technology for themselves and refuse (usually) to help those in dire need.

Still, the BoS isn't all bad. They do, in a VERY vague way, help the wasteland. As I said before, I sure as f**k wouldn't want raiders getting ahold of T-51b power armor, plasma weapons, or something like Liberty Prime. I do think, however, being decended from the military (similar origins as the Enclave, interestingly enough), they have a moral duty to help protect the good people trying to rebuild society.

If they did, a lot more people might support the BoS, and that would help them survive as a unit. After playing FO3 and NV, I think we can all safely say the BoS is in real trouble--they need to start planning for their future, instead of planning where to scavange the next piece of tech.

 

[TorontoReign]

So you would choose the morally inferior "loyalty" even having the power/technology to make a real difference in the Capitol Wasteland? I actually applauded Lyons for taking a stand against his superiors, who hoard technology for themselves and refuse (usually) to help those in dire need.

Still, the BoS isn't all bad. They do, in a VERY vague way, help the wasteland. As I said before, I sure as f**k wouldn't want raiders getting ahold of T-51b power armor, plasma weapons, or something like Liberty Prime. I do think, however, being decended from the military (similar origins as the Enclave, interestingly enough), they have a moral duty to help protect the good people trying to rebuild society.

If they did, a lot more people might support the BoS, and that would help them survive as a unit. After playing FO3 and NV, I think we can all safely say the BoS is in real trouble--they need to start planning for their future, instead of planning where to scavange the next piece of tech.

Which is why I think it important for the many splinter factions to put aside their differences, and work toward a common goal - Self preservation. I would choose loyalty over his morals since causing division among your troops only incites further chaos. He chose to cast out his own kin for people he owes nothing. Countless other innocents are in trouble throughout the wastes, but you can't help them all. The BoS cannot save the entire wasteland which is why they're supposed to horde technology and safeguard the future by keeping the past safe. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[FOvet]

You would make an excellent Paladin or even Elder. That last line just sooo reminded me of the NV chapters elder...wow. I'm not being a smartass either--I do LIKE the BoS, I justs feel they need to be more involved in society. But when you stated "The BoS cannot save the entire wasteland which is why they're supposed to horde technology and safeguard the future by keeping the past safe.", I could almost see a guy in T-51b power armor wielding a laser rifle speaking to an innitiate! I love it!

 

[TorontoReign]

You would make an excellent Paladin or even Elder. That last line just sooo reminded me of the NV chapters elder...wow. I'm not being a smartass either--I do LIKE the BoS, I justs feel they need to be more involved in society. But when you stated "The BoS cannot save the entire wasteland which is why they're supposed to horde technology and safeguard the future by keeping the past safe.", I could almost see a guy in T-51b power armor wielding a laser rifle speaking to an innitiate! I love it!

You are too kind. I meant every word too. I think realistically speaking they would need to unite their efforts, I mean how many groups have branched off from the original BoS now? How many we have yet to hear about? Does the BoS like supplying numerous units that are mutinous? Some compromises need to be made. They all have similar beliefs at the core - A strict military background with strong desires for preservation of the human race/technology. If they do not change soon the NCR and other groups will snuff them out in a few decades.

 

[SnapSlav]

being decended from the military [...] they have a moral duty to help protect the good people trying to rebuild society.

The thing with that is... they'd already COMPLETELY lost their historical identity by the time of FO1! They don't know they are descendants of a rogue group of soldiers who "seceded from the Union" just as the bombs dropped. They knew NAMES in their history, but not the details. By 2161 they were already entrenched in their own mythology and the routine of what they had become.

After playing FO3 and NV, I think we can all safely say the BoS is in real trouble--they need to start planning for their future, instead of planning where to scavange the next piece of tech.

By the time of FO2 (2241) they had already recognized that their ways were failing, and it was only the emergence of the Enclave that SHOWED them just how doomed they really were. The thing is, that's mankind's legacy for you: those who do not know and learn from their history are doomed to repeat it. And so, every generation, new Knights, Scribes, and Paladins are born (and other ranks, for the factions that have different systems) and fall into the lull of hoarding technology mindlessly, and letting themselves slowly die out. A few learn the error of that, but then it's all forgotten by the next generation.

Indeed, the best course of the Brotherhood WOULD be uniting all of its splinter factions and isolated expeditions, and focusing on self-preservation, but it would take an effort on the scale of a miracle to get this done. Virtual extinction at the hands of the New California Republic hasn't seemed to get this through their noggins, so what else will?

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

After playing FO3 and NV, I think we can all safely say the BoS is in real trouble--they need to start planning for their future, instead of planning where to scavange the next piece of tech.

Caesar:

They like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry, but the truth is they're horders. They horde technology. It's been 200 years, and they still have the mentality of scavengers. They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.

BoS shouldn't appear in the next game, maybe only in form of some remnats like those Enclave people in F:NV. They are actually lost by the 2281.