Even people on Bethesda forums are unhappy at fallout 4. Is fallout 4 really a cookie cutter game ?

[lolpop109]

Even on Bethesda fourms people are moaning that falout 4 fells shallows and not as good as other games bethesda have made. With it called a 'cookie cutter' game. Some people are at the veiw that it is as 'shooter' game with RPG elements thrown in and nothing more than that. For me personally is does fell very shallow and lacking elements where other fallout games had. It does appear very much a copy and paste game with very much of the same kill this here ect. With dialogue not really playing a feature now. For me the more I think about the more it seems less like a fallout game and more paded out. More formulaic. Even to start DLC is now the same way as you have to listen to a radio station and this gets extremely old and boring even if it is just to start a DLC.

 

[Millim]

It's the crumbs of a really bad and out of date cookie

 

[Mr muggyman 3000]

I voted "no" so I could feel "edgy"

 

[lolpop109]

I voted "no" so I could feel "edgy"

Then you my friend might have problems at home

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

I voted no as well, cookie cutter is a lazy term. The game is procedural, that is what the Bethorites are trying to say and it's true. cookie cutter is more tangible or physical, where one might mistake it for aesthetics, where procedural embodies code and data and a lack of heart and sole.

 

[Bizzclaw]

Procedural game design isn't necessarily a bad thing, but Bethesda's overuse of it is, especially because the actions you take in procedural quests are meaningless. Take for example, Elite Dangerous, which generates tasks that, upon completion, increase the power and influence of the faction you did the mission for, possibly leading that faction to expand or war with other factions. It's procedural, but it feels like it had meaning as your actions contributed, albeit slightly, to a greater goal, and elite is an MMO. Fallout 4 is a sinless player game meaning a lot more freedom could be taken with the world, but I guess "Another settlement needs your help" was the best they could do.

 

[lolpop109]

Procedural game design isn't necessarily a bad thing, but Bethesda's overuse of it is, especially because the actions you take in procedural quests are meaningless. Take for example, Elite Dangerous, which generates tasks that, upon completion, increase the power and influence of the faction you did the mission for, possibly leading that faction to expand or war with other factions. It's procedural, but it feels like it had meaning as your actions contributed, albeit slightly, to a greater goal, and elite is an MMO. Fallout 4 is a sinless player game meaning a lot more freedom could be taken with the world, but I guess "Another settlement needs your help" was the best they could do.

I mean i've beening playing the division recently and that works pretty well like that. As the the more credit you earn you can xpanded different areas for different bounes all the while it feels like you saving more people and improving you're base

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

Procedural game design isn't necessarily a bad thing, but Bethesda's overuse of it is, especially because the actions you take in procedural quests are meaningless. Take for example, Elite Dangerous, which generates tasks that, upon completion, increase the power and influence of the faction you did the mission for, possibly leading that faction to expand or war with other factions. It's procedural, but it feels like it had meaning as your actions contributed, albeit slightly, to a greater goal, and elite is an MMO. Fallout 4 is a sinless player game meaning a lot more freedom could be taken with the world, but I guess "Another settlement needs your help" was the best they could do.

That was my point. F4 is a procedural generated game. If there were aspects that were like just a or b, it could have worked, but they made the whole game procedural.

 

[lolpop109]

That was my point. F4 is a procedural generated game. If there were aspects that were like just a or b, it could have worked, but they made the whole game procedural.

It not even a 'huge' map with that many quest and location. Maybe it has more #location ect than other fallout games but if no reason to really explore go there in first place then screw it.
The map and quest could of been created by hand/intrestingly rather just lots and lots of filler. Okay they did patch settlement witch did improve the fact they could defend themselfs however that was quite late on. I'd rather a smaller map that had more detail/intrest that would of actually made the map feel bigger on the whloe

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

It not even a 'huge' map with that many quest and location. Maybe it has more #location ect than other fallout games but if no reason to really explore go there in first place then screw it.
The map and quest could of been created by hand/interestingly rather just lots and lots of filler. Okay they did patch settlement witch did improve the fact they could defend themselves however that was quite late on. I'd rather a smaller map that had more detail/interest that would of actually made the map feel bigger on the whole

Thing is, Fallout 4's map is smaller then Skyrim's.
Skyrim has more verticality.
If you factor in Blackreach and all the underworld of Skyrim, not including world spaces like Japhet's Folly, I would venture to say the exploitable cells in Skyrim, I think it would be safe to say that Skyrim has at least double the exploitable space. quadruple the quests.
"Why you comparin' Fallout 4 to Skyrim bro?"
"Because they are the closest iterations on basically the same engine."

 

[lolpop109]

Thing is, Fallout 4's map is smaller then Skyrim's.
Skyrim has more verticality.
If you factor in Blackreach and all the underworld of Skyrim, not including world spaces like Japhet's Folly, I would venture to say the exploitable cells in Skyrim, I think it would be safe to say that Skyrim has at least double the exploitable space. quadruple the quests.
"Why you comparin' Fallout 4 to Skyrim bro?"
"Because they are the closest iterations on basically the same engine."

I mean it defiantly fair enough to compear fallout 4 to skyrim. Skyrim also had better radiant quest where kill this or something but that still fed into the main story it didn't fell forced or lore break ect. Also the biggest difference to me was the fact it was optional. In fallout 4 i literally rescued that girl from abernathy farm 10 times at the same place it was like the most retared thing i have witnessed. I think the overall quest structruce ect was really terriable in fallout 4. It was like suddenly bethesda forgot how to make quest or something

 

[Bizzclaw]

I'd rather a smaller map that had more detail/intrest that would of actually made the map feel bigger on the whloe

Yup, The classic Fallout didn't even have huge maps, just towns and areas connected in an overworld with random encounters in between, and I don't think I need to make a case here about how much more detailed/interesting the actual world of Fallout 1/2 are.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

There really should have been a settlement "tier" system if they wanted to make it such a big deal.

If the game had let me, I would have build over and around The Castle a literal citadel, as big as Diamond City.
My control over the Commonwealth mainly consisted in centralized settlements in quarters of the map.
In NW, Red Rocket (fuck Sanctuary) was my player home and was my little center of operations. It was a resort for companions and some settlers, helping out in the crops. It was closely tied to Abernathy farm until they suddenly got killed "accidentally".
In the very center of the map, Hangman Alley was the core of all supply route, and was next door to DC and a goddamn lot of Super Mutants, I always had the combat music when I got there. I had a tower only for watching Diamond City guards get killed all the time.
In the NE, just a small watchtower. A crate of supplies, a lonely farmer along a stashed broken set of Power Armor
In SW, nothing. Another small spot of guards.
And in the SE, The Castle. I was irrationally impulsed to rebuild it.
"Fixing" the wall ruin was hard (there was a mod for that) and before finishing basic needs the Size limit was reached (modded that out).
After some work and the non radiant Minutemen quests, the locked quarters were open. I made the armory MY badass armory. I displayed my PAs (T-51 and T-45 were incomplete becouse of overlevel scaling and nowhere to be found) and my weapons (SHIT COLLISIONS I CAN'T GET THINGS IN SHELVES) and crafting.
All maxed merchants are in the yard, and the bar is nicely lighted and furnished (I wish) most settlers do hang out in the bar at night, that was cool.
The quarters were all around, as a lot of settlers lived there, most of them at the crops outside.
I mentioned previously, Brotherhood Vertibirds went through my airspace, and got shit down for giggles, all remembered in a pole memorial.
It was a nice setup, although I kept spending my time at Red Rocket with Curie and Dogmeat listening to Mojave radio.

Now you say, "well you had fun right?"
Indeed, that was a little fun despite obtuseness and 0 consequence and reaction.
What happened?
RED ROCKET TRUCK STATION IS IN TROUBLE
MY OWN FUCKING HOUSE
WITH 15 TURRETS ON THE ROOF AND ARMED GUARDS ON POWER ARMOR
ONLY ACCESIBLE BY ONE ROAD, LOCKED BY THE INSIDE AND WITH MINES ALL OVER

FUCK THIS

 

[CT Phipps]

How I envisioned Fallout 4 was created:

Starring Dave, Mary, Chuck, Tom, and Lead Developer.

Lead Developer: Okay, guys, it's time to start plotting out Fallout 4 so we can make the big bucks.

*No one finds this funny*

Dave: *wearing a Van Buren t-shirt* I think we should start with a Pre-War sequence which should allow us to explore the history and environment of the setting. It'll allow us to explore things like the brutality and cruelty of the Enclave-influenced US government as well as make commentary on how it all led to the inevitable destruction of the world.

Mary: Our focus groups were very clear that that the original introduction of Fallout 3 was unpopular, lasting way too long as well as preventing the player from just getting out into the wasteland.

Tom: *Is playing a handheld as he talks* I've never played a game for its story. I skip all cutscenes. Can we skip the intro?

Dave: We need to ground the players in the lore.

Tom: Whatever.

Chuck: We need to have a big bomb explosion off in the distance! Allow player characters to see one of the nukes going off! BOOM!

Lead Developer: Okay, we'll compromise and make the introduction about ten minutes..

Dave: But...

Lead Developer: So, what about our Sole Survivor's motivation?

Tom: Isn't shooting things enough?

Dave: Previous games focused on an existential Maguffin tied to the plot. There's a Water Chip, a GECK, the Platnium Chip--

Mary: Ooo, what about his or her child! That's an easy motivation!

Tom: I hate kids.

Dave: But that would restrict player freedom and option as well as offend our gay fanbase.

Lead Developer: It worked in Fallout 3 in reverse. Do it.

Chuck: Let's have them kidnapped by the Institute!

Lead Developer: Who is the Institute again?

Chuck: Those guys you established in Fallout 3. You got to be a cyborg if you sided with the bad guys!

Lead Developer: Oh yeah, the Bladerunner homage! I love that quest. Yeah, let's set this in Boston.

Dave: You hadn't decided yet?

Lead Developer: We keep our options open. What elements do you think we should build it around? We've got androids and a secret society which builds them now.

Mary: The Brotherhood of Steel is very popular. Also, four factions with New Vegas tested well.

Tom: Can we put Minecraft in the game? I love Minecraft.

Dave: Fallout is not a game about--

Chuck: Since it's Boston, we should totally have the Minutemen. Remember Assassins Creed 3? I love Assassins Creed 3 and we can have them dress as Revolutionary War heroes with laser muskets. Oh and the Brotherhood of Steel should be evil this time. Can we insert the Enclave? I love the Enclave.

Dave: The Enclave is GONE, Chuck. We got it in Fallout 3 and it was stupid there. So--

Lead Developer: Chuck is at least contributing, Dave. We'll make the Brotherhood of Steel into the Enclave. Four factions sounds good. The Institute, that Railroad group from F3, the Brotherood, and Chuck's Minutemen--minus their Native American Assassin.

Dave: What?

Tom: What's an Enclave? I can't be bothered to play these games.

Mary: The bad power armor guys.

Tom: Still don't care. How do we get rid of all these perks and crap? We need to get to the shooting.

Dave: Fallout is a RPG, Tom.

Tom: I hate RPGs. Strictly shooter man here. Shooting and Minecraft.

Dave: Why are you even here then?

Tom: I was headhunted from Wolfenstein: The New Order. I got an office rather than cubicle.

Dave: You have an office?

Mary: Streamlining is a good idea, I believe. Voiced protagonists in RPGS are also very popular. Mass Effect, The Witcher, and more.

Chuck: Can we insert more Lovecraft references this time around? I loved merging Fallout with HP Lovecraft. It's my fanfic world's basis.

Dave: Fallout has no supernatural elements!

Lead Developer: We'll use them and restrict them to the side. Streamlining is also good. I like the idea of a voiced protagonist too.

Mary: We can only afford a certain amount of lines in our budget, though.

Tom: Cut the lore questions.

Dave: What?

Lead Developer: We'll rely on terminals to relate our lore to save costs with the voice acting. Anything else?

Mary: Many fans have expressed an interest to romance their companions.

Dave: Ugh.

Chuck: Lois Lane! I've always wanted to romance Lois Lane! Oh and a hot Irish Raider. Maybe Scottish because I love Amy Pond!

Mary: We can't afford Karen Gillam. We can only afford Ron Perlman for five lines.

Dave: He's the voice of Fallout!

Chuck: *ignores Dave* Damn. Felicia Day was my pick when I was working at Obsidian. Can we throw in a robot girl too?

Lead Developer: You've thought way too much about this, Chuck. Still, they're ideas. Dave?

Dave: *sigh* Fallout 2 had a couple of romance plots.

Mary: *looks to the side* Maybe a tortured tragic brooding Brotherhood of Steel member with a dark secret.

Lead Developer: Mary?

Mary: What?

Tom: Just make sure they give perks. If I'm going to be hit on by pixels, I want a reward.

Lead Developer: We'll also do the Minecraft thing until we can figure out something else. Anyone pick up any good mods they want to steal to enhance the flavor? The fans are doing the work for us.

Mary: Legally, it's not stealing...

*Dave hits his head against the desk*

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

@CT Phipps Pretty good, but this is how I envision it.

Toddie: Hey guys, Fallout 3 did pretty well. I say we dumb it down.

Emil: Good idea Toddie, me like it very much yes!

Petey: Toddie, we need a word in private...

Toddie and Petey exit the room

Petey: Look, why do we have a disabled individual leading our writing team?

Toddie: It's pretty funny don't you think? Like we have such loyal fans they defend this shit anyway. It's like that movie, where the two old dudes do social experiments on the guy from ghostbusters.

Petey: Trading Places? What does that-

Toddie: Look! Emil is making progress!

They both look over to Emil

Emil: I draw picture!

Toddie: Hahaha very good Emil. Do you want some Nuka Cola?

Emil: Me like fresh zip of Nuka Cola!

Toddie: Wow! "Fresh zip!" That's definitely going in the DLC!

Emil: Me do good? Yay.

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

@SarcasticGoodGuy You are actually my hero. I don't know if you came to NMA just to impress me, but you did. Now, if you could do a semi Southpark style version of that. My life would be complete.

+

+

=

 

[Prone Squanderer]

@CT Phipps Pretty good, but this is how I envision it.

Toddie: Hey guys, Fallout 3 did pretty well. I say we dumb it down.

Emil: Good idea Toddie, me like it very much yes!

Petey: Toddie, we need a word in private...

Toddie and Petey exit the room

Petey: Look, why do we have a disabled individual leading our writing team?

Toddie: It's pretty funny don't you think? Like we have such loyal fans they defend this shit anyway. It's like that movie, where the two old dudes do social experiments on the guy from ghostbusters.

Petey: Trading Places? What does that-

Toddie: Look! Emil is making progress!

They both look over to Emil

Emil: I draw picture!

Toddie: Hahaha very good Emil. Do you want some Nuka Cola?

Emil: Me like fresh zip of Nuka Cola!

Toddie: Wow! "Fresh zip!" That's definitely going in the DLC!

Emil: Me do good? Yay.

So... Emil is basically Harry then?

 

[lolpop109]

@CT Phipps Pretty good, but this is how I envision it.

Toddie: Hey guys, Fallout 3 did pretty well. I say we dumb it down.

Emil: Good idea Toddie, me like it very much yes!

Petey: Toddie, we need a word in private...

Toddie and Petey exit the room

Petey: Look, why do we have a disabled individual leading our writing team?

Toddie: It's pretty funny don't you think? Like we have such loyal fans they defend this shit anyway. It's like that movie, where the two old dudes do social experiments on the guy from ghostbusters.

Petey: Trading Places? What does that-

Toddie: Look! Emil is making progress!

They both look over to Emil

Emil: I draw picture!

Toddie: Hahaha very good Emil. Do you want some Nuka Cola?

Emil: Me like fresh zip of Nuka Cola!

Toddie: Wow! "Fresh zip!" That's definitely going in the DLC!

Emil: Me do good? Yay.

I don't think its funny to make fun of stupid/restarded people they would't have written something as crap as fallout 4. I think it would be unfair to blame this on them

 

[CerberusGate]

Fallout 4 does feel like a run-of-the-mill open world shooter (so it may appear to be a cookie-cutter game) until you remember the history of the franchise. At this point, one could realize that Fallout 4 is just lazily and incompetently made (especially when one realizes what Bethesda could have learned from New Vegas on game design and role-playing integration).

Snip

Okay, that was pretty good. That could be an accurate enactment of what may have happened in the Bethesda offices. Combine your script with the script by @SarcasticGoodGuy (i.e switch out the names) and we may finally solve what actually happened in Bethesda when they were making Fallout 4.

Personally, I'm slightly more inclined to believe that they had been coked up for a long time as part of the celebration over the successful E3 presentation and only 6 months before the release date, did they finally come off the high.

At that point, they collectively panicked and began slapping together the assets they made for E3 to make Fallout 4, explaining the lack of playtesting and proofreading (for lore inconsistencies and errors). It did not help that Emil was the last to come off the high which meant that he could only think of story-lines and themes straight out of different settings and genres.

 

[CT Phipps]

I know a few people in the Triple A gaming industry who basically summarizes the problems with it. It's generally been backed up by other material I've read on the subject.

1. All video game developers are, with rare exceptions, video game fans but they aren't necessarily fans of the series they are involved in. Indeed, very often they're dumped in the middle of games they know nothing about or are of a genre they don't like.

2. They are often dumped in the middle of projects which are already half-developed or partially developed in a way they may or may not agree with.

3. They only have so much time to familiarize themselves with the continuity and style of existing franchises.

4. Very often they are given orders from on-high which make no damned sense for the setting they're doing. Like, for instance, "a dark gritty reboot' of a franchise which is overthetop and ridiculous on a fundamental level. Another is making a game which is known for ultraviolence, sex, and maturity more accessible (i.e. lighter and softer).

5. Being told to make a game able to be jumped upon for new gamers while not alienating the existing fans.

6. Contradictory orders between managers ("I really love Dark Souls. Throw in as much about that as you can") and ("I fucking hate Dark Souls. Don't even mention it around me.")

7. Arbitrary additions which completely throw off your time schedule (Multiplayer, In-game Purchases)

8. The departure of the founders or heads of projects who have guided them from the beginning to be replaced by people who have entirely different styles, wants, or needs. If you're lucky, it's the guy underneath the guy who departs but very often they leave with their prior boss or get replaced with guys corporate feels will do their bidding.

9. The request to put elements from other games into the game despite their unsuitability or the difficulty of doing so.

10. Competing writers. Far Cry 3 was a particularly interesting case as the two lead writers had completely contradictory views on what the game was about. One wanting to do a wacky deconstruction of video game tropes and the immersive experience while the other wanting to do a serious Heart of Darkness-esque exploration. The guys who did the Multiplayer for AC5 were told the Assassins were supporting the Revolution and overthrowing the King while the main writers wanted to tell a story about how the Revolution was stupid with the villains behind it.

11. Writers being told to "fix" problems with focus groups when they're problems on a structural level.

12. Constant focus group testing and rewrites as well as orders to throw away months of work or patch others together.

The scary thing? It's basically been said this isn't for "troubled productions" but all Triple A publications everywhere.