Fallout: New Vegas developers posts round-up

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The Vault provides us with another round-up of developer quotes, though it's actually almost only J.E. Sawyer.

Here's an explanation of his approach to weapon skills in Fallout: New Vegas:<blockquote>I've explained why the F1/F2 approach was flawed several times in the past, but I'll do it again here: F1 and F2 had phased obsolescence designed into their weapon skill system, but the player wasn't let in on it that design goal at all. The player was "supposed" to use Small Guns, then use Big Guns, then use Energy Weapons, but there's not much in the descriptions of those skills that would indicate a) how powerful those weapons are relative to each other b ) where those items are distributed in the world. So if you set off from Vault 13 for the first time thinking that you might find an Energy Weapon somewhere in the first few hours, you're dead wrong. If you made the terrible mistake of tagging Energy Weapons from the get-go on your first playthrough, you'll likely get nothing out of it for a long while. This essentially punishes players for "guessing wrong".

There are a few ways to address this: 1) keep that scaled skill/weapon progression and staged distribution of weapon types, but tell the player about it. This is problematic because it's the only set of skills that works like that in the game and it also limits the player's options rather than opening them up. 2) get rid of the scaled progression and staged distribution and try to make viable energy weapons throughout the course of the game. 2) is what I tried to do for F:NV, but there were a few problems. First, DT is extremely punishing to laser weapons and, unlike shotguns, there was no antidote to the problem prior to the latest patch. DPS and high accuracy could not make up for the dramatic effect of DT on lasers. Now, of course, all energy weapon ammo types (other than flamer fuel) have increasing amounts of DT bypass in addition to increased damage. Second, distribution in the early game was poor prior to the patch. It was very hard to find any decent Energy Weapons and/or ammo. With the patch, Bright Followers all along the early areas and into REPCONN HQ have leveled lists of energy weapons, so you find more ammo and better weapons much earlier. And finally, I didn't make plasma weapons do enough damage and had them consume too much ammo. Their high capacity was not a good trade-off. So now they do a lot of damage, especially the plasma pistol and rifle, and some of them consume less ammo than they used to.

I fully admit that energy weapons were not competitive with guns (with a few exceptions, like the laser RCW, gauss rifle, and plasma caster) before the patch. With the patch, I think they're certainly competitive from a combat perspective, but they are more expensive to maintain. Right out of the gates, a .357 Magnum revolver is doing 26 DAM compared to a plasma pistol's 33 (which is also negating 2 DT by default). That pistol also holds 16 shots and reloads in about second. The revolver holds six shots and is a looping reload. Add OC ammo into the equation and you're doing 41 DAM while negating 5 DT. The .357 Magnum can hold HP, doing 45 DAM, but only if the target has no armor. And you still have the looping reload to contend with. Both are great weapons. I can see someone preferring one over the other, and that is more than good -- that's awesome. But I really don't think one is a piece of junk and the other is awesome in comparison. You can take the Cowboy perk to help improve .357 Magnum revolver/cowboy repeater DAM, but that's at the cost of a perk, and there are obviously good/great EW perks that the player can take as well.

The plasma rifle/cowboy repeater show similar traits. The plasma rifle is doing 47 DAM to the cowboy repeater's 32. The plasma rifle holds 12 shots and reloads in a second. The cowboy repeater holds 7 (11 with mod) with a looping reload. Both have the same OC/HP ammo progression. And yes, you can upgrade your .357 Magnum rounds to JFP, but that costs a perk. You can make Max Charge ammo with just a good skill and enough ammo lying around. The cowboy repeater's certainly more accurate, and it certainly has a faster moving projectile an it's more durable. Those are all great traits, but I don't look at the two weapons and think, "Man, the plasma rifle sucks compared to the cowboy repeater." And if you want incredible accuracy, a high RoF, and can compensate for (or don't have to contend with) DT, that's why the laser rifle exists. You can also fire it 24 times before reloading, and the reload takes a second.

When you get to the mid-tier pistols, you have the .44 Magnum revolver and plasma defender. I don't need to break down their stats. You know where this is going. The plasma defender is a powerful mid-tier pistol. Post-patch, you can find them on Bright Followers in and around REPCONN HQ. It does more DAM than the .44 (while inherently negating 2 DT), holds more shots than the .44, is more accurate than the .44, and fires faster than the .44. This is a weapon that "sucks"? Really?

I'm sure there are still some weapons that need tuning, but without chalking it up to "feel", I don't get how EWs, post-patch, aren't good/competitive with Guns. If you want them to be demonstrably better than Guns across the board, rare, and only found late game -- well yeah, that's not going happen because that was never part of the goal of the design. If you'd like to mod it, that's your choice and totally fine, but my goal is still 2) above. </blockquote>Happy new year.
 
Of course the problem stems from the fact having all three combat options as a viable choice from the get go means there is simply too much loot. The moment you leave Doc Mitchels house you probably have a 9mm sub machine gun, laser pistol, huge ammounts of ammo, knives, etc. Then two minutes later you have a varmint rifle and 50 rounds, and it just gets worse and worse.
 
Threepwood said:
Of course the problem stems from the fact having all three combat options as a viable choice from the get go means there is simply too much loot.

Uhm...why? There aren't so many Energy Weapons lying around and the main source of weapons in general are the enemies. Ammo is another story.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Threepwood said:
Of course the problem stems from the fact having all three combat options as a viable choice from the get go means there is simply too much loot.

Uhm...why? There aren't so many Energy Weapons lying around and the main source of weapons in general are the enemies. Ammo is another story.

Take Goodsprings as an example. Victors shack, Doc's house, the graveyard and the nearby rat cave, to name a few examples of where tons of weaponary can be found. Also enemies are far too over equipped and sometimes provide three different weapons.

Weapons are ridiculously abundant.
 
Goodsprings:
-Single shotgun
-2 BBs guns (useless in combat)
-.357 revolver
-Vermint rifle
-9mm SMG
-.22 gun

They are all in poor condition and selling them won't give you much.

Loot at the beginning isn't that much of an issue IMO, you find only few kind of weapons that aren't worth a lot and you have only a couple of vendors that don't sell anything incredibly useful or overpowered. They may be abundant but it takes a while for it to become a problem.
 
I think a lot of us compare the rather easy beginning of F:Nv to the harsh beginning of Fallout2:
Even when I've gone the easy route (in Fo2) by tagging "Guns" I still have run away from just about everything in the wasteland and pray that I'll be lucky enough for some "Caravan vs Raider" encounter where I might find some rifle-like weaponry. The few times I've tagged "Energy Weapons" as my only weapon skill mostly ended up with me making a mad rush for a certain petrol station.

Oh... and I certainly didn't feel like "Guns" were unusable in the later stages of Fo2 with the .223 pistol and gauss weapons.
 
I never farmed encounters in Fallout 2 but always left Den with at least a Desert Eagle or a 10mm SMG. The only hard and annoying thing for me with the Fallout 2 beginning was the temple of trials.
 
I always leave the den with a good inventory, I always kill the asshole that orders the kids to steal my quest items, if you close the door and have Sulik is practicaly free kill, just like Lexx the hardest part of the begining of FO2 is that stupid temple, if you didn't tag melee you pretty much have to run or tag sneak.
In New vegas if you play as a Unarmed character (like me) the begining is just almostt imposible in the hardest dificulty with hardcore mode, you get boxing tape and boxing gloves, and that thing sucks. My character didn't have a reliable weapon until I reached Novac.
 
Over abundant guns has always been a problem in the series its just more noticeable in Fallout 3/NV because of the easier enemies and the ability to chose how you engage them. And the temple is easy to kill all the bugs and take little damage. All you have to do is move 3 hexs after you attack and they when its their turn they move and dont attack you.
 
It wasn't that I farmed encounters... just that quite often I stumbled into 5-10 raiders/outlaws/whatever armed with at least a couple of rifles or shotguns when I had a single pistol and a worn vault suit for armor.
After a few trial and error sessions (ie die and reload) I came to my senses and ran away as fast as I could. If I had spent some points on survival I might even have avoided some of those nasty encounters.

I'm not complaining that Fo2 was too hard, it did make it very enjoyable later on as I found/bought/looted better weapons. But the start of New Vegas is so much easier for example for a energy weapons user if you find a laser pistol in the first house instead of having to travel for days (weeks?) before you find the first non-hostile energy weapon. I confess that I don't know the fastest route from Arroyo to a decent energy weapon in Fo2 but I strongly suspect that it involves a lot of running away unless you've also tagged some other weapon skill.

Glorious memories....
Come to think about it I think I agree a bit with J.E. Sawyer. Some skills and weapons were more useful then others in Fo1/2 but then I thought it was even worse in Fo3 where Small Guns -> Energy Weapons -> Big Weapons seemed like the power progression most players were supposed to follow.
 
Actually in Fallout 3 I think you were supposed to beat it with any weapon class. Hell I got far in the game once with only a Chinese pistol and grenades.
 
For what it's worth, I started playing the day the last patch was released and have exclusively used energy weapons (and explosives) for the first 40 hours of my play experience (as of last night, 44 hours and a newly minted level 15). My energy weapon skill is at 20 (!) and I'm still pretty damn competitive in combat against most things (explosives are at 40, guns at 11). Granted, I was murdered relentlessly at the start of the game (till finding ED-E) but even without my companions I can hold my own against most things in the wasteland (I'm playing on Very Hard with Hardcore enabled). I never fast travel.

Oh, and for those that care, I just completed Return To Sender and am *just* past meeting the Yes Man in the main arc (I took a break to find the Legion, which I failed to do, and have been running between NCR camps delivering tea and scones for radio operators for the last 9,998 hours)..

Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Goodsprings:
-Single shotgun
-2 BBs guns (useless in combat)
-.357 revolver
-Vermint rifle
-9mm SMG
-.22 gun

They are all in poor condition and selling them won't give you much.

Loot at the beginning isn't that much of an issue IMO, you find only few kind of weapons that aren't worth a lot and you have only a couple of vendors that don't sell anything incredibly useful or overpowered. They may be abundant but it takes a while for it to become a problem.

Doc Mitchel had a laser pistol in his house, too.
 
Goodsprings:
-Single shotgun
-2 BBs guns (useless in combat)
-.357 revolver
-Vermint rifle
-9mm SMG
-.22 gun

-Doc's Laser pistol, I assume you copied the Wiki's 'noticable loot' section or somthing, so there may be well more than your list, which in itself is very big for a shanty opening town.
 
Doc Laser Pistol is in piss poor condition, even the guns you loot from the Powder Gangers are in realy bad condition. th e only weapon in decent condition is the piece of crap Varmint rifle.
 
Threepwood said:
Goodsprings:
-Single shotgun
-2 BBs guns (useless in combat)
-.357 revolver
-Vermint rifle
-9mm SMG
-.22 gun

-Doc's Laser pistol, I assume you copied the Wiki's 'noticable loot' section or somthing, so there may be well more than your list, which in itself is very big for a shanty opening town.

There isn't a lot more than that. Maybe one more gun or energy weapon, but that's it.

And as I said the loot at the beginning isn't really a problem because isn't worth a lot and there's nothing better to buy even if you sell everything that isn't bolted to the ground.

By selling a Laser Pistol at 100% condition with 100 Barter you can buy...2 Stimpaks (6 before the patch). A Varmint Rifle? 1 (3) Stimpak . Only that you don't have weapons at 100% condition and 100 barter at the beginning.
All those weapons I listed? I'd be surprised if you could get 300 caps out of them.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Threepwood said:
Goodsprings:
-Single shotgun
-2 BBs guns (useless in combat)
-.357 revolver
-Vermint rifle
-9mm SMG
-.22 gun

-Doc's Laser pistol, I assume you copied the Wiki's 'noticable loot' section or somthing, so there may be well more than your list, which in itself is very big for a shanty opening town.

There isn't a lot more than that. Maybe one more gun or energy weapon, but that's it.

And as I said the loot at the beginning isn't really a problem because isn't worth a lot and there's nothing better to buy even if you sell everything that isn't bolted to the ground.

By selling a Laser Pistol at 100% condition with 100 Barter you can buy...2 Stimpaks (6 before the patch). A Varmint Rifle? 1 (3) Stimpak . Only that you don't have weapons at 100% condition and 100 barter at the beginning.
All those weapons I listed? I'd be surprised if you could get 300 caps out of them.

ok 300 caps from guns. Now ammo? Now the abundant aid? Now apparel? Anyway, people in the Mojave do jobs for ten caps a month.
 
It always seemed kind of odd that F1/2 would allow you to put skill points in big guns / energy weapons at level 1, when the PC had perhaps never seen such a weapon in their life. More strange still, is that a PC with very high small gun skill could scarcely operate an energy weapon without spending skill points on it, even while the basic mechanics of the weapon seem very similar (point barrel toward enemy, pull trigger).

The Rogue-like game Dungeon Crawl employs a skill system in which new weapon skills are unlocked as new weapon types are encountered, but general weapon skills are continually exercised. (I'm sure other games have used such a system, but this is the one that stands out for me).

For example, a PC that only fights with a sword will improve in sword skill, but also in a more general "melee weapon" skill. If the PC starts using an axe, the axe skill will be unlocked, but will start at zero. However, the "melee weapon" skill will give them a decent starting point.

A system like this seems well suited for a game like Fallout. You could invest points in small guns early on, but if you ever want to switch to other gun-type weapons later on, some of your small gun expertise will be transferable.
 
Threepwood said:
ok 300 caps from guns. Now ammo? Now the abundant aid? Now apparel? Anyway, people in the Mojave do jobs for ten caps a month.

I was under the impression that we were talking of over abundance of weapons, not loot in general.
 
Strange, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wouldn't be finding "Big Guns" and "Energy Weapons" as a spear-waving tribal at the beginning of F2, but maybe I was not your typical "stoned 13 year old" that is the target market these days. Well, I was well past 13 at the time. :} (And anyway I seem to recall being inebriated much of the time...and you'd think kids would be better at these things than adults. Perhaps they're marketing new games to my mother?)

I mean, maybe I'm weird, but it seems odd to me that I can't seem to make a character that can't complete F:NV. With an INT of 2 I have no difficulty communicating with people, with no skill whatsoever I still manage just fine with a handgun (have you ever tried to hit a target with a RL handgun? Without practice it's nearly impossible!) I'm not complaining as such, it just seems... a little odd. The actual skills don't seem to count for much beyond unlocking bits of conversation...

Oh well. I still like the game, but on the second or third character, I'm not seeing much difference from the skills and abilities I chose.
 
tekhedd said:
Strange, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wouldn't be finding "Big Guns" and "Energy Weapons" as a spear-waving tribal at the beginning of F2, but maybe I was not your typical "stoned 13 year old" that is the target market these days. Well, I was well past 13 at the time. :} (And anyway I seem to recall being inebriated much of the time...and you'd think kids would be better at these things than adults. Perhaps they're marketing new games to my mother?)

I mean, maybe I'm weird, but it seems odd to me that I can't seem to make a character that can't complete F:NV. With an INT of 2 I have no difficulty communicating with people, with no skill whatsoever I still manage just fine with a handgun (have you ever tried to hit a target with a RL handgun? Without practice it's nearly impossible!) I'm not complaining as such, it just seems... a little odd. The actual skills don't seem to count for much beyond unlocking bits of conversation...

Oh well. I still like the game, but on the second or third character, I'm not seeing much difference from the skills and abilities I chose.

I think if you have low str you cant use proper ironsights for guns depending on thier size.
 
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