Fast shot sucks?

[DForge]

For single shot weapons I mean.

I did some math on gun damage assuming you have sniper, LK 10, better criticals and bonus rate of fire.

For convenience, I assumed critical roll of 0 doesn't exist (cause that would make critical roll of 20 possible with better criticals and give a marginal chance for grade 1 critical hit. Too much fuss to include this)

With fast shot, you can only score torso crits, meaning following distribution:
25% of your shots will do 1,5 x dam
25% of your shots will do 2 x dam
20% of your shots will do 2 x dam and ignore armor
10% of your shots will do 2 x dam and ignore armor
20% of your shots will instantly kill

using those values, against the most dangerous foes (The enclave soldiers), weapons have following damage per shot:
Gauss Rifle: 87,5
Gauss Pistol: 104,7
Pulse Rifle: 99,8

Now the interesting part is assuming eye shots, without fast shot. Check the gauss pistol. While you have twice less shots, you use a different formula:

25% of your shots will do 2 x dam and ignore armor
25% of your shots will do 3 x dam and ignore armor
20% of your shots will do 3 x dam and ignore armor
10% of your shots will instantly kill
20% of your shots will instantly kill

Which means a dps for gauss pistol of 134,9

In other words, fast shot doesn't actually do anything good at all for single shot weapons :O

Unless my math sucks, this means the majority of fallout players going for weapons like gauss pistol and mutating finesse for fast shot after sniper are just wasting time, cause the regular eye shots are still better unless attacking a mass of low hp critters, against which 6 separate shots means more than three (since you have a high probability of killing a single target with one shot, it's better to do more shots of lower dam then three shots of higher damage). it's the enclave soldiers that are the only difficulty in this game though, so imho players should focus on their efficiency in killing them, not some wild dogs or whatever.

Wow. Oh, and I did not include living anatomy/bonus ranged damage bonuses.



I would gladly calculate the damage of point blank vindicator/bozar burst with/without those perks, but I need to ask first: does the grade 6 torso critical hit (the one that instantly kills and does x3 damage) also counts as instant kill for burst weapons? Guess not and it's just the critical damage. Also, is living anatomy/bonus damage added before or after critical hit damage calculation?

 

[Lord Danath]

I think you are basing much of your analysis on average damage you could get with or without fast shot.

The truth is that with fast shot, sniper, bonus rate of fire and 10 luck you'll be scoring criticals in every shot you take and anyways no critter in the game can survive more than two shots even taking into account the average damages you posted.

So it's actually quite useful if you are using pistols or low ap guns even without the aimed shots because you have to take into account that in the start of the game you are not running around with all those perks on your char so even with 10 ap you could only take one aimed shot with most rifle type weapons and hitting the eyes is not easy at that point with your pathetic small guns skill and meanwhile if you are using pistols or even burst mode on some guns with fast shot you are hiting two or three times with the highest to-hit chance you could have at that point.

In reality it's just a matter of preference and your style of play since you can finish the game either way and it won't make a difference in the long run.

Also I can tell you from personal experience that even with 6 luck and sniper those instakill criticals happen more often than the 20% you came up with in your maths.

 

[DForge]

Well, that's the randomness. If you get 10 criticals in a row with a CC of 10%, you can't really go around saying "from my personal experience CC is BS, because I crit all the time". The game rolls 100 and checks in which group you are, adding 20 if you have better criticals. 100+ rolls are instant kills (90+ if you are shooting in the eyes). Thus it can be said that around 20% shots within an infinite number of tries would be instant kills. But of course luck varies between people and if you did a chart of your shots, perhaps you'd even have 30-40% lethal shots. Still doesn't change the fact that the basic chance is around 20%.


And there are 6 stages of criticals, as I already said. I won't elaborate because you can see them in the fallout wikia or in other places. Low roll criticals are pretty lame (x1,5 damage, no extra effects) while high roll criticals are awesome (more damage, often armor piercing). The reason why aimed shot seems better than fast shot is that every critical you can achieve by shooting in the eyes is armor piercing (with better criticals. Without, still 80% criticals will be armor piercing) and gets a higher multiplier, which assumes much more damage. Going by maths, 50% of torso criticals (70% without better criticals) aren't armor piercing and against the only enemies that matter in this game (enclave soldiers), that means base damage of 15 and worse multiplier, resulting in pretty ineffective critical hit, essentially a wasted shot.

Of course, this is just a probability. There IS a probability that you will kill an entire 6-person enclave patrol with fast shot & gauss pistol because you get instant kill rolled on every shot, which is not possible with aimed shot. Still, the aimed shot will score a higher average damage if you take a large number of shots and compare the results.

And at the start of the game fast shot is horrible imo, what really kills people early is a nice eye shot from a short distance. With fast shot you can get one torso shot more and do like 10 damage more, which isn't sufficient, mainly because non-critical attacks with early game weaponry aren't very strong.

Of course the game is easy and you can beat it with any kind of character, the point is: we powergamers always want the best, most efficient option there is )

cheers.

 

[Lord Danath]

And that's exactly why I said it's a matter of preference and play style.

You are a powergamer and I'm not so we look at it from different perspectives

And at the start of the game fast shot is horrible imo, what really kills people early is a nice eye shot from a short distance. With fast shot you can get one torso shot more and do like 10 damage more, which isn't sufficient, mainly because non-critical attacks with early game weaponry aren't very strong.

It's not horrible at all. To get a good to-hit chance on an eye shot you practically have to be next to your target which is the same distance required for a good burst mode attack which will probably do more damage than an eye shot anyway since you still don't have a sure chance to get a critical and with fast shoot you'll still have AP left over for another shot or even another burst if you have another target close enough.

Going by maths, 50% of torso criticals (70% without better criticals) aren't armor piercing and against the only enemies that matter in this game (enclave soldiers), that means base damage of 15 and worse multiplier, resulting in pretty ineffective critical hit, essentially a wasted shot.

By the time you are fighting Enclave you'll have weapons that will do more than 15 damage on a critical unless you are not using them (I'm talking about plasma, pulse and even some small guns here not lasers and all that crap) which will not be wise.

Of course the game is easy and you can beat it with any kind of character

And that's exactly the point.

Let's face it, by the time you are high enough level to pick those perks you already are pretty much unkillable unless you go running in search of Enclave patrols to fight (Which is suicidal at a low level with or without fast shot) and even then you'll probably won't die unless they get a lucky critical on you.

 

[DForge]

To clarify, I was talking about 15 regular damage (that's the regular average damage a weapon like gauss rifle does to enclave soldiers after DR and DT reduction), not 15 damage critical hit

You are right on the burst ofc.

And Enclave patrols are THE toughest things in the game. If you are walking right next to the ocean you can meet patrols of 9 soldiers. Now that's hardcore. Especially if you have party members, it's extremely easy to lose one of them in such a battle.

 

[Lord Danath]

To clarify, I was talking about 15 regular damage (that's the regular average damage a weapon like gauss rifle does to enclave soldiers after DR and DT reduction), not 15 damage critical hit

I know what you meant but with 10 luck and sniper as you said in your first post all shoot are criticals so you won't be seeing those numbers anyway.

And Enclave patrols are THE toughest things in the game. If you are walking right next to the ocean you can meet patrols of 9 soldiers. Now that's hardcore. Especially if you have party members, it's extremely easy to lose one of them in such a battle.

You are right here but the areas you talk about are close to Navarro and if you are walking in those areas at a low level and without a good armor you have a death wish.

It's exactly why you don't learn it's location until further into the storyline and unless this is your first time playing the game you know that it's better to stay away fron there at the start.

And even taking into account that they are the toughest enemy in the game they still dont have a lot of HP so those Plasma or Gauss crits will still kill them in two or three shots anyway.

Basically the way I see it Fast shot is an early-game Bonus Rate of Fire perk with the drawback of no aimed shots.

By the time you are of a high enough level to pick the sweet perks it starts to lose it's use since at that point your skill is high enough that you can blow someones eyes from the max range your weapon allows.

At this point you can of course choose to mutate it with something else (Like Finesse for devastating crits) or keep it and together with Bonus Rate of Fire shoot 5 or 6 times in a turn.

It's really all personnal choice but I would not says it sucks just like that, it has it's uses, just like every other trait in the game. (Well, maybe not Sex Appeal or Bruiser )

 

[DForge]

They have 200 HP, actually

To clarify:

max damage of gauss pistol is 48 (after the 3/2 damage increase from ammo dam mod)
assuming you don't have living anatomy, you can score up to x2 damage with fast shot, since those belong to torso criticals that can't get stronger. Meaning 96 damage max without living anatomy, meaning you need 3 shots even if you score two perfect non-lethal critical hits. However grade 2 and 3 critical hits don't bypass armor (and have a total of ~50% chance of occuring) and grade 2 critical also has a multiplier of x1,5. In other words, it's not so easy to kill an enclave soldier with two shots and no grade 6 critical (instant kill one).


here's the table, I'm not sure if it's entirely correct: Table and whether you can score a critical on a different part of body (other than torso) with an unaimed shot. If yes, things look a bit better for fast shot, of course.

 

[Lord Danath]

They have 200 HP, actually

max damage of gauss pistol is 48 (after the 3/2 damage increase from ammo dam mod) assuming you don't have living anatomy, you can score up to x2 damage with fast shot, since those belong to torso criticals that can't get stronger. Meaning 96 damage max without living anatomy, meaning you need 3 shots even if you score two perfect non-lethal critical hits. However grade 2 and 3 critical hits don't bypass armor (and have a total of ~50% chance of occuring) and grade 2 critical also has a multiplier of x1,5. In other words, it's not so easy to kill an enclave soldier with two shots and no grade 6 critical (instant kill one).

I wasn't talking specifically about the Gauss pistol but it's good to know those numbers. Also how many shots from the Gauss rifle will it take to kill them? I'm assuming it's two

If I'm not mistaken you can shot the Gauss rifle 3 times with Fast Shot and Bonus Rate of Fire so if it takes 2 shots to kill a soldier with the rifle you still have one shot left to make at another target.

Whether you can score a critical on a different part of body (other than torso) with an unaimed shot. If yes, things look a bit better for fast shot, of course.

Nope.

Unaimed shots always hit the torso no matter what just like burst attacks.

 

[DForge]

Yes it would take around two shots (it is possible, although unlikely, you'd need a third one though - it would take low damage roll, possibly minimal, and grade 2 critical hit).

Gauss pistol is strictly superior against enclave soldiers, though.

 

[Lord Danath]

Yes it would take around two shots (it is possible, although unlikely, you'd need a third one though - it would take low damage roll, possibly minimal, and grade 2 critical hit).

So basically you'll almost always kill your target with 2 shots and have one left with Fast Shot.

Also without fast shot will you almost always kill your target with the first shot and have one left or do you need the two shots to kill your target?

If it's the second then Fast Shot looks better in this case.

Gauss pistol is strictly superior against enclave soldiers, though.

When you say this are you refering to the AP - Damage ratio or something else?

 

[DForge]

I was referring to the fact that Gauss Pistol does better average damage per 6 shots than Gauss rifle with sniper/fast shot/bonus rof (I gave the numbers in the first post). Also, it is true that it's better to have 6 shots than 3 shots; If the first one instantly kills the target, you don't waste the other one. If gauss rifle instakills a guy, the equivalent of two shots of gauss pistol has just been wasted.

With aimed shots, there is a higher chance of instant-kill and armor piercing critical is guaranteed.

It matters because it's much less random than fast shot gauss pistol.

With fast shot gauss pistol, you have a 50% chance of doing a base average damage affected by armor and multiplied by either 1,5 or 2, which isn't a very impressive score.

With the gauss pistol and aimed eye shots, you have 100% chance of doing an armor-ignoring hit of at least x2 multiplier and additional blinding/turn loss effects, also the chance of instant kill raises to 30%.

 

[Lord Danath]

With the gauss pistol and aimed eye shots, you have 100% chance of doing an armor-ignoring hit of at least x2 multiplier and additional blinding/turn loss effects, also the chance of instant kill raises to 30%.

You are right here but as I said before we are talking mid to late game here not the early start where you don't have access to Better Criticals and Sniper.

And unless you have Sniper and 10 luck you won't get criticals 100 of the time (Better Criticals doesn't affect chance to crit, it only adds 20% on the crit table when a critical is scored).

So in reality you'll be depending on luck until level 24 where Sniper becomes available just like the person using Fast Shot is.

 

[DForge]

yes, of course. I was strictly referring to the endgame powerhouse. Per's guide suggests that swapping finesse for fast shot is worth it. I think it's not (and finesse also sucks, by the way - there was a thread that basically explained that you'd need EVERY of your critical to be armor piercing to make more damage WITH finesse - which is pretty hard at times, especially without huge luck).

That makes me think small frame is a better choice than both finesse and fast shot, unless you want to use burst/big weaponry - in such case fast shot is excellent.

Oh, and also, vindicator minigun with all the perks (living anatomy and 2x bonus ranged damage) with 10 Luck, sniper and bonus rate of fire should technically guarantee three kills per turn (four with two jets taken - it doesn't last long though) so it might be the best powergaming option for late game. The problem is that the weapon shoots in a cone: from a bigger distance, it's hard to hit with many bullets - I don't know whether extremely high big guns skill helps) Also, from what I understand, burst weaponry can't score the instant kill critical: it only does the grade 6 critical damage instead (it's still pretty severe: the modifier for torso shot is x3)

 

[Lord Danath]

Yes. that's right, burst weapons use the torso crit table.

And also Small Frame is usually a pretty good choice since the +1 AP far outweights (no pun intended ) the reduction in carry weight specially if you take NPCs into account.

The problem is that the weapon shoots in a cone: from a bigger distance, it's hard to hit with many bullets - I don't know whether extremely high big guns skill helps

AFAIK high skill doesn't affect the shape of the cone of bullets only the to-hit chance at distance.

swapping finesse for fast shot is worth it. I think it's not

It's only worth it if you have Sniper and 10 luck since at that point every shot is a critical and your critical chance hardly matters any more.

 

[DForge]

Yes it's worth to get rid of finesse of course, but you may either swap it with something else (not much choice, sadly...) or go for something else from the very beginning (small frame is good). I used to get finesse every time but after reading a whole thread on NMA about it, I decided it's not worth it. ESPECIALLY if you're going for burst weapons, since the +30% DR finesse adds to your enemies pretty much makes many earlygame burst weapons extremely weak.

 

[Kanhef]

Finesse doesn't reduce the damage of armor-bypassing criticals, which makes it slightly better.

An interesting way to play is by not taking Better Criticals, which means no instant kills and reduced overall critical effectiveness. Targeted shots are essential, as torso hits just aren't damaging enough.

Also, complete critical hit tables are here.

 

[weemies]

I wouldn't say fast shot is useless, but it's just not for me. I've found that I have the most fun by relying heavily on targeted attacks and critical hits, even as a brawler character. That means I almost always pick finesse, and almost never pick fast shot. Fast shot + sniper + 10 LK doesn't appeal to me either, because unaimed critical hits just don't seem to yield damage deadly enough, in my experience. But it really comes down to personal preference.

BTW, is an unaimed shot exactly the same as an aimed shot to the torso? Meaning can you get an insta-kill with a very lucky unaimed shot?

 

[Kanhef]

Yes, they're the same. There are signs the developers intended to make those tables distinct, but it wasn't implemented.