Fireside Chat

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
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Y'know, fellow Fallouters, I've always found myself confounded by the insistence of reviewers to note Fallout 3 as having a great story and great dialogue. Sure, some have no problem distinguishing terrible from good, and freely recognize that neither writing nor voice directing represent strong points in Bethesda's skillset, but the game has gone so far as to win awards for writing. Why? Is there any plausible reasoning behind this? My personal prediction is that the journalists will do an easy 180 on this when previewing TES V and "suddenly" "realise" the previous product was not that good, at all, as Matt Peckham does here. Why do we all know they'll do this? They did it before, and seem completely unabashed about it.

But rounding up Mothership Zeta meant being faced with another idiosyncrasy. While many lambaste the title, only a few (such as WorthPlaying) address the issue of the problems in verisimilitude caused by the spaceship, and attached hints of aliens causing the nuclear war. It is quite possible we should ascribe this only to the fact that most "game journalists" tend to be untrained generalists, with no knowledge stretching back more than 6 years into gaming history, and thus they are simply ignorant of why none of this works. But many instead seem to adopt an attitude by which anything that is "cool" is fine to include in the game as long as it is peripherally tied to the central themes.
The logic is superficially solid; this Sci-Fi is tied to Fallout by being 50s Sci-Fi. But one can easily poke through this by pointing out that Fallout is clearly not tied to all forms of 50s fiction. This logic "anything from the 50s is appropriate to Fallout!" is in no way new to Fallout gamers, as it was first used by Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel producer Chuck Cuevas:<blockquote>Q: just because it has been beat to death, is the thong gone for good?
A: Not to my knowledge. Here's the story ... The now-notorious character with the thong was based on photos of Betty Page, a 50's pinup girl who was notorious due to photo shoots of her that featured black leather, bondage, and (believe it or not) skimpy clothing. We thought that a sadistic female character might pattern herself after Betty Page at her seediest. So the character's attire was based upon some research into 50's pop culture.</blockquote>That's right, people, "50's pop culture research" can be used equally to explain away thongs or aliens in Fallout, and the connection is faulty for the same reasons in both cases.

With its DLCs, Fallout 3 has fallen into inconsistency roughly as much as Fallout 2 had (though with a significantly less plausible game world), but unlike Fallout 2 it seems to be evading a lot of criticism, both of blatant internal inconsistency and of missing the mark thematically. And that, my dear friends, is the second idiosyncrasy: game journalists want to have their cake and eat it too, they wish to claim Fallout 3 has a great world design and writing - design elements that necessitate adherence to internal consistency - and yet shrug their shoulders whenever Bethesda follows its main design philosophy, which Istvan Pely essentially described as slapping on cool li'l bits and at the end of the day, "as if by magic, all of this comes together in a consumable form that is hopefully entertaining". Anyone who thinks that is a valid design formula needs to go back to college.

But it really falls apart when we start ascribing philosophy to this obvious mess. A closing speaker at The Philosophy of Computer Games 2009 will speak on Fallout 3 and Philosophy Amidst the Ashes. It is one of those pieces that is instantly recognizable to connoisseurs of semi-professional literary or cinematic criticism: one that takes an obviously flat and badly thought-through piece and ascribes philosophic meanings by ignoring bits that don't fit their own theory. The speaker - Sarah Grey - cites one of my favourite moments of Fallout 3, and one of the few occasions when I felt Bethesda "got it", Signal Oscar Zulu. But despite the fact that they're right next to Oscar Zulu's location, she opts to completely ignore the Republic of Dave and Canterbury Common's The Superhuman Gambit, a pair of locations that can honestly only be described as "lulzy", events the author opts to ignore in her attempt to present Fallout 3 as a preconceived juxtaposition of violent moments with dark stillness.

This creates a downward spiral: game journalists would like to see their profession and thus the industry as a whole taken seriously, and thus they would want more games to engage in philosophical themes. But most games simply don't. The solution is either to wait for more games to strive to exploit game mechanics and narrative for philosophical purposes, or to ascribe deepness to them despite it not being there. They opted for the latter. This attitude engenders a conservative attitude from game developers; they don't have to try to write intelligently, since game journalists will simply ascribe writing skills and philosophical themes to their games despite the fact that they are simply not there. Call it an innovation killer.

The fact that I had to compare Grey's piece to semi-professional writing from other critical professions really says it all. It is self-defeating nonsense that game writers are trying to present Fallout 3 as top of its class in writing or even a "philosophical piece" while simultaneously embracing its "if it's cool, use it" school of design. But rather than bash the overall level of professionalism in game journalism (they waste half their time grinding their teeth over it themselves, after all), let us sit back and quietly contemplate an industry that is fine with giving design and writing awards to a studio, yet when that studio throws in a heap of inconsistent garbage, this same industry asks us to ignore the elephant in the room, and cops out by hammering on the gameplay instead.

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This was an unscheduled blog-style post, since I didn't feel like just newsposting the pieces by Grey and Peckham. Back to your regular programming after the break.
 
That was fun, let's do this again sometime. :)

If you haven't realized it yet, gaming "journalism" has died quite some time ago. Positive reviews are easily bought.
 
Nice read. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Now it's actually more like "promotiolism" rather than "journalism".
 
Awesome post.

I agree with the cat about "journalism". I hardly ever read/listen to gaming reviews any longer, simply because of ridicilous hype and glorification of sub par games.

I remember it started with Bioshock. That a polished dumbed down version of System shock 2 would get that much attention blew my mind.
 
Brother None said:
This creates a downward spiral: game journalists would like to see their profession and thus the industry as a whole taken seriously, and thus they would want more games to engage in philosophical themes. But most games simply aren't. The solution is either to wait for more games to strive to exploit game mechanics and narrative for philosophical purposes, or to ascribe deepness to them despite it not being there. They opted for the latter. This attitude engenders a conservative attitude from game developers; they don't have to try to write intelligently, since game journalists will simply ascribe writing skills and philosophical themes to their games despite the fact that they are simply not there. Call it an innovation killer.

Heh. I thought crossovers were so nineties.

This blending of high-brow and low-brow culture, the core of much pomo art, is a little passé, I'm afraid. I think Planescape Torment is a nice example of that, and also a nice example of how it fails. It's pseudo-philosophy. It's a collection of ideas and musings that might get a gamer hard, but will make people who actually read books laugh out loud. It doesn't work. It's like asking for a Tour de France in which the cyclists have to recite their own poems while pumping those pedals: it's insane. You kind of miss the point of games when you start to turn them into tomes of deep and profound knowledge. A good story with a nice plot development + excellent gameplay is all most game designers should worry about IMO.
 
alec said:
This blending of high-brow and low-brow culture, the core of much pomo art, is a little passé, I'm afraid. I think Planescape Torment is a nice example of that, and also a nice example of how it fails. It's pseudo-philosophy. It's a collection of ideas and musings that might get a gamer hard, but will make people who actually read books laugh out loud. It doesn't work. It's like asking for a Tour de France in which the cyclists have to recite their own poems while pumping those pedals: it's insane. You kind of miss the point of games when you start to turn them into tomes of deep and profound knowledge. A good story with a nice plot development + excellent gameplay is all most game designers should worry about IMO.

Yes, probably most games should - I never so much argued they shouldn't as just noting that journalists like to pretend they do - especially since their designers simply lack the competence to write anything profound. It is a mistake in arrogance to put games or films next to "books" and then "laugh out loud" though. The fact that something is relatively not as clever does not mean it is simply "not clever" and therefore not meaningful. If we're going to demand of all of our writers to either reach the level of classic philosophers or otherwise STFU, the output will be zero.

I'm not sure Planescape is the best example. It's basically a novel poured into a game, but the "profoundness" of its message is not actually about anything human, it's more about the genre itself, flipping all expectations for cRPGs upside down and thus putting a mirror up to it. That makes it a deep work, but a deep work within its own genre, and something that's not attractive to a non-gamer like you.

A better example would be Pathologic, for a game that actually combines gameplay and narrative to offer a convoluted plot that asks a lot of questions (though not having a "message" in the traditional sense). That is a truly clever game, and it's rare. So rare I can't think of any other example, though many would say Braid, but I didn't see it. Something Grey would like to pretend Fallout 3 does.

And that's the thing. Most games, like most films and even most books, should be about fun, entertainment. But why then pretend they're deep when they're obviously not? By doing so you're blocking off actually intelligent people from exploring the possibilities offering by this medium that are not open to books or films.
 
The fact that you can't name more than two, three examples says it all, doesn't it: the message that you want (something somewhat profound) simply doesn't fit the medium (game). For a variety of reasons, for instance:
- because you're dealing with gamers, not with nerds who want a library card
- because we're talking 90% pictures here, it should be fucking obvious to anyone that you are digging your own grave: it's the same fucking mistake moviemakers make: economically speaking pictures can say more than words, but they do not ever reach the same level of subtlety as words. That's why you can't have a game that matches Kafka, Joyce or Nietzsche. It's simply not the right medium. Deep movies are still as shallow as fuck. Take "Synechdoche" for instance. Nice imagery. Nice montage. Kinda sorta makes sense, but the dialogue is just fucking laughable in each and every respect. Some people are content with that, they don't expect more, maybe knowing that not much more can be done with the medium, yet IMO such a movie fails. It's not memorable. It could have been a memorable piec if it would have opted for the right medium, but it didn't. It's like as if Leonardo da Vinci would have opted to write a poem about the Mona Lisa instead of painting her: it would have been a horrible choice, it would have not worked or had the same impact.

Meh. I'm tired. I hope you get my point.
 
alec said:
I hope you get my point.

I get your point and I agree, only you seem to be missing my point, in that

a) neither games nor cinema need to be "as deep" as Kafka or Joyce. Why should they be? Why hold them up to impossible standards? If they have something profound to say, it doesn't need to be *as* profound as the last best thing, that's just pointless

b) my point was never that I think a lot of games should be philosophical, but rather than game journalists are obsessed with giving mediocre writing like that of Fallout 3 praise for writing and/or "deep themes", and by doing so they're lowering the standards of what constitutes both good and intelligent writing over the entire industry
 
Great post!!

I think that the bulk of the problem when it comes to gaming "journalism" stems from the fact that the bulk of advertising dollars for gaming websites come from gaming companies themselves.

Not hard to make the jump from A) getting money from a gaming company to B) not slamming their product a short time later.

The only time we'll get decent, unbiased gaming journalism or reviews is when the websites that hire the writers are able to sustain themselves outside of the industries advertising dollars.
 
Also, books are not just about ostensibly profound things said by deranged French people. It's social commentary, observation of life, sense of wonder, fleeting facets of human interaction. You can put those things in games, and you can put good stories in games, and you can get something like Grim Fandango. For instance, I like Beyond Good & Evil. It's very easy to mock it, but it doesn't make me like it less. It doesn't have a deranged French guy-shaped hole in it waiting to be filled.
 
alec said:
...It's like as if Leonardo da Vinci would have opted to write a poem about the Mona Lisa instead of painting her: it would have been a horrible choice, it would have not worked or had the same impact.

Meh. I'm tired. I hope you get my point.
Who knows. If his skills or mind had lead him to writte poems instead of drawing pictures we would today remember his "poems" eventualy just like we do his pictures (of course for a different reason though).

One might not like certain poems or lyrics from very famous and skilled writters. But he has to acknowledge their skill at least. Even today after so long time people use the Iliad as example and flash of inspiration while quite many historians even doubt that it was written by one single man.
 
Ausir said:
- because you're dealing with gamers, not with nerds who want a library card

I don't see how this is mutually exclusive.

I do. :P

a) neither games nor cinema need to be "as deep" as Kafka or Joyce. Why should they be? Why hold them up to impossible standards? If they have something profound to say, it doesn't need to be *as* profound as the last best thing, that's just pointless

What isn't pointless is, as a creator of cultural... things, to choose the right medium for the message. That's what I'm trying to say: games are simply not the right medium for whatever it is you are after: some sort of intelligent twist, some extra brain candy. You can have intelligent puzzles and you can have some nicely written dialogues, but that's it basically, what else are you waiting for? I actually like the fluidity and spontaneity and simple slapstick of ol' Lucas adventures a lot more than, say, the 'deep' dialogue in Planescape Torment. When games go that way, you end up with Matrix-styled dialogues as seen between Neo and The Architect: pointless ramblings. It has less to do with the writer's capabilities than you seem to think, it's the medium that doesn't let you do those things. Seriously: words are words, games are primarily pictures. The Egyptians weren't able to reach the same level of complexity with their hieroglyphs as we are able to reach with our modern alphabet. And personally, I'd rather have a game designer come up with a good story + plot (which can be very childish or basic even) instead of with some text (a goddamn side-effect in games today dawgunnit) that makes me think deep thoughts. It's just not what games are meant to do. Because they can't. Unless you want to go back to Zork and such. Which you don't, I'm sure.

b) my point was never that I think a lot of games should be philosophical, but rather than game journalists are obsessed with giving mediocre writing like that of Fallout 3 praise for writing and/or "deep themes", and by doing so they're lowering the standards of what constitutes both good and intelligent writing over the entire industry
I know, BN, I know, but the journalists don't give damn because it should be fucking obvious to everyone that this is just their modus operandi (as you point out as well) and honestly, I think those games are in fact deep for 90% of the gamers out there. Seriously: lots of gamers like to see themselves as intelligent gamers, and I agree, but they are rarely intelligent human beings. It's easy to be blown away by crappy pseudo-intelligent dialogue then, I reckon.
 
alec...i'm going to have to disagree about the level of artistic or intellectual depth in film vs. literature. film works with visuals which immediately limit it's lyrical storytelling ability in one way yet expand it in another way completely unattainable in literature.

i'd not accept that a person not able to get through Being and Nothingness yet able to pick apart Contempt should get the same philosophical degree...but the conceptual experimentation of a living, breathing, format such as film...(think about 8 1/2 where the camera meets every movement in a perfect yet painfully brief moment of perfect composition) it just can't be found anywhere else.

and as far as video-games...i don't think they should aspire to such heights, because they generally have too many people involved and too many compromises needed to sell their product. but this does not mean that they shouldn't also market their product to people who understand Being and Nothingness...these people like to relax with some easy entertainment too, do they not?
 
Brother None said:
A better example would be Pathologic, for a game that actually combines gameplay and narrative to offer a convoluted plot that asks a lot of questions (though not having a "message" in the traditional sense). That is a truly clever game, and it's rare. So rare I can't think of any other example, though many would say Braid, but I didn't see it. Something Grey would like to pretend Fallout 3 does.

It seems that a big part of the story in Braid, or rather of the explanation, only becomes apparent once all the stars are collected. Collecting those though is a humongously idiotic undertaking, requiring youtube walkthroughs and the like, and even then it remains hard. I generally don't like solving impossible puzzles, nor do I like to have them solved for me and then play them, so I didn't go there. Apart from that, all philosophy conjured up by the normal game pretty much stemmed from my own creative interpretation, which was fun, but probably wrong.


On the topic of the Rybicki Maneuver, I think some of it has also to do with reviewers having a hard time accolading a game with praise that a similar previous game had already received. So unlike saying that FO3 has a vibrant character interaction system like Oblivion, reviewers would rather refer to Oblivion minus one. This game's aspects were already described, back then, as good or even stunning. Therefore, saying that this new game is even better in these aspects must make it simply awesome. But since Oblivion was already praised so damn high, it has to be criticized anew, so that the new game at least can be better. It gets so hard to say that things improve when they're already good.

But I don't know in how far game journalism can actually amount to an innovation killer. Sure, you aren't giving out much of an incentive if heaps of dung get praised into heaven, but that doesn't mean game developers and designers adapt the same standards that reviewers have in mind. Innovation is often quite risky, whereas previously trodden roads to fame (yes, from journalism) and money are an easy way out, sortof like making a new environment-friendly and inexpensive family car nowadays.

Then there's also the way the industry has worked. The emphasis has simply never been on social interactions, or on deep layers of philosophical meanings. Whenever a new game comes out, what is always being touted are the graphics, or in an FPS, the combat AI (like in Half-Life 2, god, that ended up being one hell of a disappointment, AI-wise). Systems of morality have never evolved beyond the Manichean D&D system, and games which do not use a morality system at all are limited in other ways. Neither character interaction nor storytelling have received a lot of attention compared to the other usual suspects. Games like Oblivion and FO3 have their own design-philosophy pitfall, by being too big for their own good. 100 hours of gameplay is suddenly supposed to be a good thing, regardless of what you'll end up doing in those 100 hours. With people sometimes gaming full-time, quality content sometimes isn't really anymore what they want, they just want an artificial semi-meaningful way of killing their time. And this, I feel, is precisely what Oblivion and FO3 have delivered.

One reason that games don't get very deep is probably because they simply aren't the work of a single mind, compared to books or movies. The peculiarity of Swift's Gulliver's Travels, Nietzsche's Beyond good and evil, or Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove come from one or a few persons, not from a concentrated group effort designed to make money. For books, the message is often more important than the final pecuniary value. One thing I would love to see in games would be social criticism, more satire, and parody. But that presupposes a certain intelligence, and a certain kind of person who likes to be tickled into thinking about his environment. Games generally don't want to exclude their potential money-sources with political or philosophical views, which bars such endeavors.

Damnit, I'm supposed to be asleep already. Else I'll venture on towards another day of hard work founded on less than 5 hours of sleep, a sure formula for mental and physical breakdown.

Edit: Bugger, this again, I say stuff in more words other people have said before me in less. Oh well.
 
and as far as video-games...i don't think they should aspire to such heights, because they generally have too many people involved and too many compromises needed to sell their product.

Sounds just like movies.

One reason that games don't get very deep is probably because they simply aren't the work of a single mind, compared to books or movies. The peculiarity of Swift's Gulliver's Travels, Nietzsche's Beyond good and evil, or Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove come from one or a few persons, not from a concentrated group effort designed to make money.

AAA bestselling games aren't any different from big-budget movie blockbusters in this regard.
 
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