Have You Seen These Bugs II

[Per]

Another Fallout 2 guide update is coming up (le gasp) and I have a bunch of reported bugs/oddities that I haven't been able to verify. Some are probably the result of mushrooms. Whether or not other people have experienced the same could mean the difference between filing them away under "more investigation" or deleting them with an evil laugh. If you could help explain them, so much the better.

* NPCs reported to suffer from permanent Jet withdrawal. In my testing they suffer aftereffects properly but no addiction effects.

* In the unpatched game the car should supposedly always disappear at the SAD. I tested it and it was there. Script doesn't seem to differ from other areas in this respect.

* Critters knocked down don't require AP to get up. I found this not to be correct. Rereading the report I got the impression the player had expected that when you knock someone down and they get up as part of the same animation, they should suffer an AP "debt" in their next round. Is the fact that they don't so bewildering that it merits pointing out?

* Reported that killing the deathclaws you see in Westin's brahmin pastures would lock up the game. Unable to replicate.

* Reported that although you nominally get a bonus to hit critters that are lying down, in reality the chance to hit would go down dramatically. Not really something I have observed.

* Saving in the mad brahmin encounter supposedly can corrupt the save. I tried it and the saves loaded properly. Maybe you have to save in combat mode in special circumstances or something.

* One player reported a hole in the wall in the Broken Hills mine and even posted a screenshot clearly showing it. But in my game there is no such hole and the map is not changed in the patch.

* Reported that if SAD robots move onto the electric floor, it crashes the game. Unable to replicate. (Basically you have to disable the forcefield, then shoot a nearby robot and run into the electric corridor so it follows you.)

* Reported that the Jack quest in NCR wouldn't start properly if you enter the map at a time when Jack is in the police station. However, for me he starts to walk to the power plant at the proper time, enabling the event when he reaches it.

* Reported that stealing the Spectacles from the scorpion in Broken Hills would allow you to pass the perception test regardless of your own PE. The script doesn't back this up in the least, nor does actual testing.

* Reported that having your car in the east part of the Den and releasing the slaves so they start running towards the exit grid will crash the game and/or corrupt saves made. I have a vague memory of this being mentioned before, but couldn't replicate.

* Killing rocket robots and/or fire geckos in special ways (with critical hits) and then using lootable bodies to search their corpses are supposed to let you get Robo Rocket Launchers and Gecko Fire Breaths. Didn't work for me so far, but it occurs to me now this might possibly have to do with Living Anatomy preventing 0-damage lethal criticals and related bugginess. Or it could be mushrooms.

* Reported that having a high Sneak skill works just as well for stealing as a high Steal skill, i.e. Sneak 90% and Steal 10% would produce the same number of successful steals as Sneak 10% and Steal 90% (if sneaking anyway). I haven't tested this one yet.

* Reported that hitting NPCs with friendly fire will cause the "apathy bug" that primarily Vic and Myron suffer from. It's been determined that "looting" them while they're unconscious triggers this bug. If simply hitting them with stray bullets from weapon bursts would trigger the bug, you'd think it would be more common.

* Reported that in the unpatched game you could drop explosives in combat mode and critters wouldn't react. I have found both versions to work the same in this regard. However, sometimes if you drop the explosives two hexes away and preferably behind them and in darkness, they might fail a PE check or something and not initiate combat - possibly this might account for the report.

* Reported that Gruthar would always attack the player upon re-entering Vault 13 after the first time. Couldn't replicate.

* Reported that Big Jesus Mordino will attack you just for standing about in his room. Didn't investigate a lot yet but there's no apparent cause in his script. Possible cause for the report is the fact that you will be attacked without a warning if you loot the containers in that room.

* Reported that the cause of the known (?) "Vault City people disappear even in the day" bug would be applying the UK patch to the US version. Haven't tested (I don't have the US version anyway) but I don't see any reason why this would be a problem.

* Reported you can get Hunting Rifles from farmers encounter outside Klamath. The world map script specifies Pipe Rifles however, and that's what I seem to get.

Finally a few things that I wouldn't mind some help verifying:

* The Paramedics Bag doesn't seem to provide any bonus to Doctor at all. I tested all these items statistically and found the other items provide the expected bonuses, but not this one.

* The Heave Ho perk doesn't seem to visibly increase your chance to hit with thrown weapons under all circumstances I could think of (range, lighting, ST). Does it in fact do anything or is the bonus applied "invisibly"?

* I have pretty much figured out that the infamous no restocking bug is caused by the game timer stopping or warping to zero or negative numbers. Any more info on when it happens (that is after how much game time) and/or in what circumstances might help. It sounds like something a hack to prevent the 13-year time limit might cause, but surely it has been experienced by people who didn't use any such thing?

* Infamous "overzealous NCR cops" bug. I've verified that invisible armed NPCs can cause guards to shout warnings - but not to actually attack. Other than that I have no leads.

* Jet Antidote stat bug. I've yet to work out the exact formula for going about this - how long to rest, how many doses to take, after which point it starts to work, how large the bonus is depending on everything else, and so on and so forth. Neither my own description nor any other I've found on the web strips the procedure down to the minimal requirements for consistently pulling it off.

* I found the "reserve movement" command in combat (Ctrl+move) doesn't seem to work at all. In Fo1 it worked sometimes, at least.

* Does anyone know how long it takes for blood to disappear? Is there a random component, or does it depend on how many times you re-enter a map? I loaded some games and revisited locations I hadn't been in for years, finding blood in some but not in others. Bodies on the other hand disappear in mere hours.

* Too many items bug: there is a definitive possibility that this is caused solely by collecting all the holodisk entries in your pipboy. Experiences from people who a) hoard all items but don't read holodisks and b) hoard holodisks but don't collect items would be useful here. Or just try going back and forth between two maps in one or both scenarios and see if it freezes up eventually.

Oh, and for completeness, here's the list of unexplained reported bugs remaining from last time:

* Erratic fadeouts on Navarro maps, accompanied by an inability to sleep using the Pipboy.
* In Navarro, Quincy lets you take the plans from the locker without reacting.
* Sulik starting to complain about carrying too much even though he's not at his maximum.
* In the SF Brotherhood video sequence, the player avatar took the place of one of the Enclave soldiers behind Horrigan.
* Keith Wright won't let you open the door even if you got his permission.
* Cave robbers don't equip their weapons, but only punch you.

 

[Kanhef]

On knockdowns: AFAIK, critters behave the same way as the player. If you have to get up at the beginning of your turn, it costs AP. If you get up immediately after the attack, before anything else happens, it doesn't.

The description for Heave Ho is that it increases the maximum range of thrown weapons; it doesn't mention any bonus to accuracy.

For purposes of determining the maximum range of thrown weapons only, this Perk will increase Strength by +2 for each rank.

'Reserve movement' doesn't work for me. I have a vague memory of it working at one point, but that was probably Fo1, in which it works properly. (Mac versions of both.)

The cave robbers will use power fists. Some of the other critters that shun guns are willing to use melee weapons such as cattle prods. Based on this, my hypothesis is that their unarmed/melee weapons skills are better than their small guns skill.

 

[Lord 342]

I have definitely had the slaves mess up the game when the car is on the east Den map. This happened only once, though, and after that I stopped taking the car there. The game crashed; I don't recall consequences beyond this but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[JR Jansen]

By restocking bug, do you mean that merchants don't restock anymore ? If that's the case, i think it hits when you talk to the computer in the BOS base in San Fran after Matt has been killed and if you ask the computer to show you the holographic playback.

As for the to many items bug. I have it hit me in the military base mostly. I always download the holodisks and read them. So it would seem that the bug hits when you have to many entries in your pip boy because there aren't that many items in the military base. It has also hit me once in SAD. These are two places where holodisk are found (a good number of them) and, depending on the point when you enter it, you could have had a lot of entries allready.

 

[Nimrod]

* Too many items bug: there is a definitive possibility that this is caused solely by collecting all the holodisk entries in your pipboy. Experiences from people who a) hoard all items but don't read holodisks and b) hoard holodisks but don't collect items would be useful here. Or just try going back and forth between two maps in one or both scenarios and see if it freezes up eventually.

I tend to travel light and not hoard items, but I can say with 99% assuredness that the evil number of PIPBoy entries is twelve. I’ve paid close attention to this in both F1 and F2 and it's the same number in both - Eleven is fine, twelve and you instantly hit problems. It also doesn’t make any difference if you used a holodisk or downloaded an entry from some other source.

I should note that I’ve never had a map crash on me due to this problem, but I get all the black boxes where buttons should be.

EDIT: Do let us know when you've got the update completed. I have both Fallout guides saved on my computer so I can access 'em at will. Pure gold, no BS.

 

[Madbringer]

* Reported that although you nominally get a bonus to hit critters that are lying down, in reality the chance to hit would go down dramatically. Not really something I have observed.

Not something i observed either. Maybe the person reporting was using the scoped hunting rifle and got a few hexes closer before he shot or something?

 

[Solon]

Reported that although you nominally get a bonus to hit critters that are lying down, in reality the chance to hit would go down dramatically. Not really something I have observed.

I believe the focus of this statement to be "In reality". As in: it is harder to shoot someone who is prone than standing (at a distance anyway). My personal feeling on this is to leave it alone. Possible scenario, thier inability to move is countered by smaller target profile. I just like to get a bonus from knockin' critters to the ground.

 

[Nimrod]

* Reported that although you nominally get a bonus to hit critters that are lying down, in reality the chance to hit would go down dramatically. Not really something I have observed.

Definitely not something I've ever come across. I would say either Solon's answer is correct or this individual is used to Fallout Tactics.

 

[Haenlomal]

* Does anyone know how long it takes for blood to disappear? Is there a random component, or does it depend on how many times you re-enter a map? I loaded some games and revisited locations I hadn't been in for years, finding blood in some but not in others. Bodies on the other hand disappear in mere hours.

I think this one depends on how many times you enter the map. It goes from body->blood puddle->smaller blood puddle->disappear. This is easily duplicable if you do the following:

1) Start a new game, and go through the Temple of Trials, killing everything (except for Cameron at the end, of course).

2) As soon as you have gotten the Vault Suit, save the game under two different slots.

3) In one save game, rest for 1 day, then go back into the Temple of Trials. The bodies should have turned into blood by then. Exit the Temple, rest for 1 more day, then go back in. Blood puddles should become smaller. Rest for 1 more day outside the Temple, then go back in. Blood should be gone.

4) In the other save game, go to Klamath, and do all the stuff there. Return to Arroyo and enter the Temple. Blood should be in the Temple.

For step three, I think 1 day is more than sufficient -- I believe the actual time for decay is 12 hours, but I'm not 100% sure on this. I also seem to have this nagging impression that it takes longer for the smaller blood puddles to disappear, but that could be me doing mushrooms. I don't have Fallout 2 installed on my system currently, but I'm sure you can experiment with different number of hours and find the exact time yourself to trigger the decay.

-- The Haen.

 

[Per]

Thanks everyone for the answers so far, I hope for more of them.

The description for Heave Ho is that it increases the maximum range of thrown weapons; it doesn't mention any bonus to accuracy.

I believe Heave Ho was changed after the manual was printed. In-game the description instead says that it won't allow you to exceed a weapon's normal range, which means that if it is to do anything at all, it must increase accuracy within that range. I just can't observe any such effect when hovering the mouse over a target.

The cave robbers will use power fists. Some of the other critters that shun guns are willing to use melee weapons such as cattle prods. Based on this, my hypothesis is that their unarmed/melee weapons skills are better than their small guns skill.

It's not just that they choose one thing over another. It only seems to happen in some games, for one thing. The script that spawns them includes a command to equip the created weapon, and this works in my game for instance.

By restocking bug, do you mean that merchants don't restock anymore ? If that's the case, i think it hits when you talk to the computer in the BOS base in San Fran after Matt has been killed and if you ask the computer to show you the holographic playback.

That's what someone said way back, but I can't see any reason why it would have anything to do with it, and people who've run into the bug have verified that it's not related.

I tend to travel light and not hoard items, but I can say with 99% assuredness that the evil number of PIPBoy entries is twelve. I’ve paid close attention to this in both F1 and F2 and it's the same number in both - Eleven is fine, twelve and you instantly hit problems. It also doesn’t make any difference if you used a holodisk or downloaded an entry from some other source.

I should note that I’ve never had a map crash on me due to this problem, but I get all the black boxes where buttons should be.

It's more important to get to the bottom of the crash bug than the black button bug, but that gives me something to work with, thanks.

Not something i observed either. Maybe the person reporting was using the scoped hunting rifle and got a few hexes closer before he shot or something?

No, the issue was that he experienced a discrepancy between the displayed chance to hit and the actual number of hits. The to-hit percentage on the screen would go up, but he said he'd actually hit less than usual.

For step three, I think 1 day is more than sufficient -- I believe the actual time for decay is 12 hours, but I'm not 100% sure on this.

I'll try this. The way I tested it briefly was by resting on one map and then going to the map with blood, and then if it was still there, I'd load the game on the other map and keep resting. This way the blood never went away.

 

[JR Jansen]

By restocking bug, do you mean that merchants don't restock anymore ? If that's the case, i think it hits when you talk to the computer in the BOS base in San Fran after Matt has been killed and if you ask the computer to show you the holographic playback.

That's what someone said way back, but I can't see any reason why it would have anything to do with it, and people who've run into the bug have verified that it's not related.

Are you realy sure about this ? Whenever it happened to me, it was after this sequence. It may take some time before people actually see it happen because it takes some time for merchants to restock. The first time people will go back to a location, the merchant there will have restocked but that's because they had already restocked before the bug hit. If i don't let the computer play the sequence in the game, the bug has never hit. As to why, i have no clue aswell. It certainly seems to be unrelated but all the evidence i have points to it.

 

[Kanhef]

After a bit of testing, it looks like Heave Ho! does in fact work properly. It's still worthless, unless you have a very low strength.

A character's maximum range for throwing weapons is ST * 3. Someone with a strength of 2 can throw things up to 6 hexes away. Taking Heave Ho! gives them an effective ST of 4, for a range of 12. With ST 7, the theoretical range is 21.

However, the maximum throwing range for spears is 8, and for grenades 15. So raising strength above 5 doesn't increase range at all. Characters with a strength of 1 would benefit from this perk; it's completely useless with a strength over 3.

 

[Lord 342]

Re: the concept of prone vs. standing for to-hit modifiers...
I believe the bonus is a holdover from the concept of melee combat in RPGs as the primary mode of combat. It's much easier to go to town on somebody on the ground with a melee weapon than when they are standing up. It's much harder to shoot a prone person from far away, but, again, it's easier if you're right up close to them. Probably no easy way for this to be scripted, so the designers just made it a blanket modifier like it is in D&D... (although now even that strikes me as strange, in a pen-'n'-paper game, why the rule was written so that dropping prone makes you EASIER to shoot???)

 

[Haimerej]

About the Mad Brahmin Bug I think it occurs to some saves in the Unpatched Versions, This happened to my FO2 Saves back in 1-2 Years ago when I didn't know of NMA back then...

 

[Per]

Are you realy sure about this ? Whenever it happened to me, it was after this sequence.

But there's no command being executed during the sequence that would logically relate to the timer. It's just fades and animations, like any other scripted sequence in the game.

It may take some time before people actually see it happen because it takes some time for merchants to restock. The first time people will go back to a location, the merchant there will have restocked but that's because they had already restocked before the bug hit.

They restock when you enter their map. So after the bug hits, you will never see anyone restock or appear to restock again.

I'm bumping this in the hope that more people will have dropped in after the holidays. There are still three weeks until the update in case someone wants to help test something.

 

[br13]

Based on 1.02 with missing children patch.

Critters knocked down don't require AP to get up. I found this not to be correct. Rereading the report I got the impression the player had expected that when you knock someone down and they get up as part of the same animation, they should suffer an AP "debt" in their next round. Is the fact that they don't so bewildering that it merits pointing out?

I believe they require APs to get up. When a creature standing next to me can attack me, say, three times per round and I knock it down (still next to me), in the round it gets up, it attacks me only twice.

Reported that although you nominally get a bonus to hit critters that are lying down, in reality the chance to hit would go down dramatically. Not really something I have observed.

In the real world it is harder to hit a crouching/crawling target than a standing one. It may be just a case of simplicity in Fallout/Fallout2 when a critter can't dodge your bullets =)

About the player noticing hitting knocked down targets less often, I believe it's just a subjective opinion based on unlucky RNG rolls. I had many cases like this one. Shooting somebody with a ~75% chance to hit usually nets me 1/3 hits and from time to time, I hit something twice in a row when firing with a ~25% chance to hit. All luck.

Reported that having a high Sneak skill works just as well for stealing as a high Steal skill, i.e. Sneak 90% and Steal 10% would produce the same number of successful steals as Sneak 10% and Steal 90% (if sneaking anyway). I haven't tested this one yet.

Can't clear this up statistically, but so far in all my games I usually steal my money back from shopkeepers in SF. When I do it in the open (always from the same spot behind their back) I sometimes get attacked with a decent (80-100%) steal skill (about 10-20% chance from what I observed), but when I also sneak, I almost never get attacked (happened to me only once or twice, sneak ~50-80%).

Again, I didn't write anything down, calculate anything. This is not statistics, it can be just luck.

Reported that Gruthar would always attack the player upon re-entering Vault 13 after the first time. Couldn't replicate.

I played with an evil character recently and he didn't want me to even help him so I can show him I'm trustworthy. I entered the Vault again just in case, same dialogue.

Also, I went to the third floor, took the GECK from the locker, went down - he attacked me. Reloaded. Went down, used a decent sneak skill, he didn't. So it all seems accurate to normal critter behaviour.

I found the "reserve movement" command in combat (Ctrl+move) doesn't seem to work at all. In Fo1 it worked sometimes, at least.

Doesn't work for me as well.

In Navarro, Quincy lets you take the plans from the locker without reacting.

I find this to be true. Even when I can't convince him that another tech needs them, I can just open all the lockers there and take everything.

 

[Frank Horrigan@BIS]

* Killing rocket robots and/or fire geckos in special ways (with critical hits) and then using lootable bodies to search their corpses are supposed to let you get Robo Rocket Launchers and Gecko Fire Breaths. Didn't work for me so far, but it occurs to me now this might possibly have to do with Living Anatomy preventing 0-damage lethal criticals and related bugginess. Or it could be mushrooms.

I've encountered this one once when I managed an instant "kill" on the sentry robot in the Toxic Caves.
However, you can guaranteed snag certain critters special weaponry when instead knocking them unconscious on lootable corpses. The ones which you're able preform this on are fire geckos (toxic waste dump and/or most likely military base if you aren't interested in sacrificing your own followers) and the boxers from the ring-fights in New Reno (knock them down on the dead ring girl to grab their "Special Boxer's Weapon". You need to KO and loot them in the same round). This does not work on any robot as they can't become "unconscious".

 

[Omegawolf]

No, the issue was that he experienced a discrepancy between the displayed chance to hit and the actual number of hits. The to-hit percentage on the screen would go up, but he said he'd actually hit less than usual.

About the player noticing hitting knocked down targets less often, I believe it's just a subjective opinion based on unlucky RNG rolls. I had many cases like this one. Shooting somebody with a ~75% chance to hit usually nets me 1/3 hits and from time to time, I hit something twice in a row when firing with a ~25% chance to hit. All luck.

You know, I've encountered a similar problem, where even if I had a 95% to hit, I could miss twice in a row. This has happened to me more than once, actually, and didn't have anything to do with someone who'd been knocked down. I suppose it's still possible it's an extreme kind of horrible luck, but is it also possible something's hidden beyond what's shown on the screen? I'm no mod guy, though, I wouldn't know.

And by the way, what's wrong with mushrooms?! They make you grow big where you can stomp on your enemies and break bricks and... Wait, what game is this board about again? >.>

 

[Per]

I've confirmed that Robo Rocket Launchers and Flame Breaths can be acquired with 0-damage instant kills. Also did the knock-out-geckos thing.

No luck with blood decaying. I tried entering a map several times, resting between a few hours and a whole week each time, and the blood didn't even get smaller.

 

[OnGame900]

NPCs Suffer from Permanent Jet Withdrawal:
I think I know what this is. If you use jet on an NPC right before or during combat they will gain a temporary drug bonus. If you gain a level, and they gain a level too, they will have their stats set to the leveled up version of the NPC, but the jet effect is technically still there. 10 minutes later the NPC will lose stats based on the jet withdrawal, and with the game assuming that their leveled up stats were the drug bonus stats they don't reach their normal levels again. Gaining another level gets rid of the problem. I haven't accomplished this yet, but I think if you get an NPC to level up during their withdrawal phase they will be a kind of super NPC. I'm actually trying to do this with Marcus in a game right now.

Hole in the wall in Broken Hills Mine:
Are you talking about the secret room on the top of the map? It's there, sometimes enemies walk into it (that's how I discovered it.) It's possible to get inside, too, but there's nothing there and it's terribly disappointing.

Stealing with High Sneak Skill:
I've never noticed a difference, and I'm pretty sure some official document specifically states that sneak skill has nothing to do with stealing. I think it was the manual or something. You can use steal skill on piles of stuff, like the lady merchant from Broken Hills for example, but if your sneak skill is higher than your steal skill your chance of being caught is less if you just use the regular access inventory command while sneaking than using Steal while sneaking.

Big Jesus Mordino Attacks you a Lot:
There are many times when he tells you to leave after a discussion, and if you don't he will attack you. Maybe this player wasn't reading the text carefully enough. When you enter there's usually an automatic discussion, and I think he usually tells you to leave, so I could see this happening.

Jet with Antidote bug:
It's like this: start with no addiction or withdrawal to jet. Take two doses of jet. Get an addiction to jet. Wait until the bonus is gone and you have low stats. Use the antidote at this point. The bottle doesn't disappear for some reason (because you were addicted? That makes sense?) Once you have gone through withdrawal and get the YOU NEED JET NOW text you will have a permanent bonus to strength, perception, and actionpoints. Repeat until the game lacks any sort of challenge.

I remember this happening by accident the first few times I played and figured the antidote itself was bugged. I just tested it out again, though, Mac version of fallout with Killap's patch. Still works like a charm/jinx. I managed to get myself to instantly die while trying it. I was poisoned and radiated at the time, but nearly enough for either one to kill me, so it must have been the jet inducing a heart attack. You never can tell with those instant deaths, it's impossible to read the text before the screen goes white.