Mentally challenged gods?

[Sorrow]

It may have been a great RPG then, but it doesn't have anything of value now.

It wasn't.
I played BG when it came out and it was a big disappointment. Its combat mechanics, character creation and development, world interaction, narration and dialogues were vastly inferior to Fallout.

it depends on your view's, the baulders gate's and the fallouts are both my favroite games, i enjoyed them both about as much as eachother. baulders gate was a bit slow but i didnt have any problems with the combat.

Baldur's Gate? Was it that game where a cretin and a genius got the same dialogues, all which were written for someone with intelligence of 8?

 

[Tagaziel]

It may have been a great RPG then, but it doesn't have anything of value now.

It wasn't.
I played BG when it came out and it was a big disappointment. Its combat mechanics, character creation and development, world interaction, narration and dialogues were vastly inferior to Fallout.

it depends on your view's, the baulders gate's and the fallouts are both my favroite games, i enjoyed them both about as much as eachother. baulders gate was a bit slow but i didnt have any problems with the combat.

Baldur's Gate? Was it that game where a cretin and a genius got the same dialogues, all which were written for someone with intelligence of 8?

No, the game where you are the Child of Bhaal and posess the basic ability to speak, whatever your stats are.

 

[Tagaziel]

It may have been a great RPG then, but it doesn't have anything of value now.

It wasn't.
I played BG when it came out and it was a big disappointment. Its combat mechanics, character creation and development, world interaction, narration and dialogues were vastly inferior to Fallout.

it depends on your view's, the baulders gate's and the fallouts are both my favroite games, i enjoyed them both about as much as eachother. baulders gate was a bit slow but i didnt have any problems with the combat.

Baldur's Gate? Was it that game where a cretin and a genius got the same dialogues, all which were written for someone with intelligence of 8?

No, the game where you are the Child of Bhaal and posess the basic ability to speak, whatever your stats are.

I guess Int-based dialogues were too complicated and unnecessary. After all it would be frustrating if a player would create a character with 18/00 18 18 3 3 12 and it wouldn't be able to speak properly and ability to say something intelligent when player would have intelligence above 12 would make it more a conversation simulator than a cRPG.

No, it's because Children of Bhaal can't be retards due to their divine blood. It's hard for a God to be a retard - and his children are no exception.

Not to mention it's fantasy, where there ARE no retards because of the chosen convention.

Is it another of your half-arsed theories? Because if it is, I mourn the passing of your intellect, Sorrow.

 

[Sorrow]

Sigged!

Speaking of passing of the intellect...
1. Character can be a retard, because int of 3 means that it's a retard and player can create a character with int of 3.
2. Divine blood doesn't prevent one from being a genius or at least more intelligent than you.
3. Fantasy has stupid and genius characters.
4. Have it ever occured to you that there are no Int/Wis checks because it would require more time and effort and someone who can actually write something very intelligent/wise?

 

[Madbringer]

Why can't godlings be retards anyway? ;o

One of the D&D campaigns i was dm'ing resolved around a psychotic, dull-minded goblin, that could re-shape the reality around him, and had divine heritage.

I agree with Sorrow that it was simply sloppy design.

 

[Tagaziel]

1. Character can be a retard, because int of 3 means that it's a retard and player can create a character with int of 3.

Where is it stated that an intelligence of 3 takes away your ability to speak? Don't apply SPECIAL to D&D.

2. Divine blood doesn't prevent one from being a genius or at least more intelligent than you.

Because we all have multiple divine blooded beings running around the Earth, right?

3. Fantasy has stupid and genius characters.

But they aren't present in Baldur's Gate. It's heroic fantasy, and heroes don't go "DURRR BOOBIES".

4. Have it ever occured to you that there are no Int/Wis checks because it would require more time and effort and someone who can actually write something very intelligent/wise?

I wasn't bothered by that in the least, primarily because I play a high-int character with an above averge wis. Which allowed me to dual-clas to a mage in BG2. Fun for the familiar!

Why can't godlings be retards anyway? ;o

Because they're divine.

One of the D&D campaigns i was dm'ing resolved around a psychotic, dull-minded goblin, that could re-shape the reality around him, and had divine heritage.

Is goblin selectable as the PC's race? No, not really.

I agree with Sorrow that it was simply sloppy design.

Given the scope of the game, I prefer that they stuck to writing for generally intelligent characters rather than waste time and effort on an option that would go unseen by 95% of gamers.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Given the scope of the game, I prefer that they stuck to writing for generally intelligent characters rather than waste time and effort on an option that would go unseen by 95% of gamers.

Do what? Virtually every character creation guide I've seen recommends (except for magic users of course) dumping intelligence to raise agility and constitution. Probably just as many people play fighters and/or thieves as mages. Personally I prefer Paladins but even there there's quite often no noble choice. The only good path often ends in conversation choices, that if actually role playing, a Paladin would never say.

 

[Madbringer]

Is goblin selectable as the PC's race? No, not really.

That's not really the point. The point is, divine heritage don't mean jack shit about how smart or stupid a creature is. Divine heritage is a measure of a creature's power and stretch of abilities.

Find me a rule that explicitly states otherwise, and i'll yeld.

Given the scope of the game, I prefer that they stuck to writing for generally intelligent characters rather than waste time and effort on an option that would go unseen by 95% of gamers.

It definitely would not be a wasted effort. At the very least, it would stop people from dropping intelligence way down to 3. They could make intelligence's ground limit a 9, and make several more sophisticated dialogue options available to only very high INT characters (it was done so in Torment, and it worked good).

Also, i'm not completely clear as to how, exactly, INT 3 would affects characters in ad&d 2nd ed. In the third edition, INT 3 characters cannot speak and are basically almost brain dead.

Have to sift through my manuals.. dammit all!

edit: ok, found it. Here's a direct quote from the manual.

A semi intelligent character (Int 3 or 4) can speak (with difficulty) and is apt to react instinctively and impulsively. He is not hopeless as a player character, but playing such a character correctly is not easy.

See? Retarded!

 

[Deleted member 53669]

I think you guys have forgotten the fact that mental-retardation and low intelligence are not the same thing. Retardation impedes normal brain function. Low intelligence is just a lack of using brain function.

 

[Tagaziel]

Given the scope of the game, I prefer that they stuck to writing for generally intelligent characters rather than waste time and effort on an option that would go unseen by 95% of gamers.

Do what? Virtually every character creation guide I've seen recommends (except for magic users of course) dumping intelligence to raise agility and constitution. Probably just as many people play fighters and/or thieves as mages. Personally I prefer Paladins but even there there's quite often no noble choice. The only good path often ends in conversation choices, that if actually role playing, a Paladin would never say.

How often did you dump intelligence in favour of other stats in Fallout? I can, with 90% certainity, say that you played a character with at least 4 intelligence, just to get normal dialogues.

The same would apply in BG - if there indeed were "retard" dialogue options, most players would get their intelligence/wisdom at least to a level where they can get normal dialogues.

That's not really the point. The point is, divine heritage don't mean jack shit about how smart or stupid a creature is. Divine heritage is a measure of a creature's power and stretch of abilities.

Find me a rule that explicitly states otherwise, and i'll yeld.

So basically, you claim that one exception to the general rule is enough to form a rule that "divine heritage doesn't mean jack"?

There was not a single retarded child of Bhaal in any of the Baldur's Gate games. Enough proof that divine heritage prevents retardation.

Though there might be exceptions to that rule. Few and far in between, just like a girl with her sister's torso and limbs attached to her is an exception in the general homo sapiens populace.

It definitely would not be a wasted effort. At the very least, it would stop people from dropping intelligence way down to 3. They could make intelligence's ground limit a 9, and make several more sophisticated dialogue options available to only very high INT characters (it was done so in Torment, and it worked good).

I missed stat checks in BG, that's true. Though I always play a high intelligence character, so that's pretty much a moot point in my case.

A semi intelligent character (Int 3 or 4) can speak (with difficulty) and is apt to react instinctively and impulsively. He is not hopeless as a player character, but playing such a character correctly is not easy.

Low intelligence, not retardation. (kudos DC)

See? Retarded!

DC answered it better:

I think you guys have forgotten the fact that mental-retardation and low intelligence are not the same thing. Retardation impedes normal brain function. Low intelligence is just a lack of using brain function.

Damn, I constantly forget to make that point.

You earn a digital cookie!

 

[Madbringer]

So basically, you claim that one exception to the general rule is enough to form a rule that "divine heritage doesn't mean jack"?

There was not a single retarded child of Bhaal in any of the Baldur's Gate games. Enough proof that divine heritage prevents retardation.

And how many of Bhaal's children have we seen, really? Ten, tops? Out of hundreds he spawned? Not really a representative group, to be honest, especially if you take into account the fact that you actually have to fight most of them, and fighting a drooling idiot isn't anyone's idea of heroic fantasy (i hope ;D).

Also, don't forget that some (or perhaps, most) of the children of Bhaal were, in one way or another, mentally ill. They were megalomaniacal, psychopathic, paranoid, and inclined towards the ways of Chaos. That and some "special magic powers" is what Bhaal gave his children, not permanent "protection from idiocy".

Though there might be exceptions to that rule. Few and far in between, just like a girl with her sister's torso and limbs attached to her is an exception in the general homo sapiens populace.

No, actually, i would say, like stupid people among normal people. Explicit stupidity is not so rare, although, rare enough to serve as a sparkling contrast to the rest.

Low intelligence, not retardation. (kudos DC)

(..)

DC answered it better:

I think you guys have forgotten the fact that mental-retardation and low intelligence are not the same thing. Retardation impedes normal brain function. Low intelligence is just a lack of using brain function.

Damn, I constantly forget to make that point.

You earn a digital cookie!

For the sake of the point we're discussing, i'd say it doesn't really matter. Low intelligence can be caused by a mental illness, genetic predispositions, whatever the reason, the result will be the same. A slow person is a slow person, and a slow person having exactly the same dialogue choices as a person that's practically a one-in-a-million genius (score 18 or more) IS SILLY.

It is! Divine heritage or not.

 

[HoKa]

Grizzly are you trolling?

 

[xdarkyrex]

Grizzly are you trolling?

No hes not, lrn2internet

thats not what trolling is

 

[HoKa]

So he's just being obnoxious?

 

[Tagaziel]

So basically, you claim that one exception to the general rule is enough to form a rule that "divine heritage doesn't mean jack"?

There was not a single retarded child of Bhaal in any of the Baldur's Gate games. Enough proof that divine heritage prevents retardation.

And how many of Bhaal's children have we seen, really? Ten, tops? Out of hundreds he spawned? Not really a representative group, to be honest, especially if you take into account the fact that you actually have to fight most of them, and fighting a drooling idiot isn't anyone's idea of heroic fantasy (i hope ;D).

Also, don't forget that some (or perhaps, most) of the children of Bhaal were, in one way or another, mentally ill. They were megalomaniacal, psychopathic, paranoid, and inclined towards the ways of Chaos. That and some "special magic powers" is what Bhaal gave his children, not permanent "protection from idiocy".

Saradush was crawling with Bhaalspawn, and you couldn't throw a rock in Throne of Bhaal without hitting one.

I have to remind you that we're on the topic of "Divine heritage prevents retardation (yes/no)", not "Divine heritage doesn't cause any personality disorders, no sir". Because that would be a lie.

Dude.

In ToB we encounter an adventuring party of Bhaalspawn composed of a rabbit, a xvart and other amusing miscellanea. And if a fucking rabbit can be a member of an adventuring party, it kind of tells of the nature of the bonuses.

Though there might be exceptions to that rule. Few and far in between, just like a girl with her sister's torso and limbs attached to her is an exception in the general homo sapiens populace.

No, actually, i would say, like stupid people among normal people. Explicit stupidity is not so rare, although, rare enough to serve as a sparkling contrast to the rest.

There you have it.

Low intelligence, not retardation. (kudos DC)

(..)

DC answered it better:

I think you guys have forgotten the fact that mental-retardation and low intelligence are not the same thing. Retardation impedes normal brain function. Low intelligence is just a lack of using brain function.

Damn, I constantly forget to make that point.

You earn a digital cookie!

For the sake of the point we're discussing, i'd say it doesn't really matter. Low intelligence can be caused by a mental illness, genetic predispositions, whatever the reason, the result will be the same. A slow person is a slow person, and a slow person having exactly the same dialogue choices as a person that's practically a one-in-a-million genius (score 18 or more) IS SILLY.

I never said it isn't, I also don't like the lack of stat checks.

My point was that low intelligence doesn't hamper your ability to communicate, as being slow doesn't mean you can't piece sentences together coherently.

It is! Divine heritage or not.

Oh shut up and make me some pancakes.

Oh, and HoKa, this is a troll.

 

[Wooz]

So he's just being obnoxious?

Dude. If you've got something to add to the discussion at hand, please do so.

If you don't, and post useless one-liners, have a nice cup.

Right, proceed.

 

[xdarkyrex]

It's fair to say that intelligence does not correlate with speaking ability.
There are some very intelligent incomprehensible people, and some retarded sweet talkers.

Also, in the DnD world, 3 intelligence doesnt make you illiterate, as intelligence has very little do do with literacy in DnD. This is not SPECIAL, guys. Just because they are both called inteligence does not in any way mean that they ARE infact the same thing.

Oh, and HoKa, this is a troll.

Holy shit.
Now THAT is trollish.
In his defense though, I would debate over the color of a box art

 

[Deleted member 53669]

For the sake of the point we're discussing, i'd say it doesn't really matter. Low intelligence can be caused by a mental illness, genetic predispositions, whatever the reason, the result will be the same. A slow person is a slow person, and a slow person having exactly the same dialogue choices as a person that's practically a one-in-a-million genius (score 18 or more) IS SILLY.

That being said, Mental retardation is still different from stupidity. And neither SPECIAL or DnD has calculated the difference. The only game in history that has would be Arcanum.

 

[Madbringer]

Saradush was crawling with Bhaalspawn, and you couldn't throw a rock in Throne of Bhaal without hitting one.

I have to remind you that we're on the topic of "Divine heritage prevents retardation (yes/no)", not "Divine heritage doesn't cause any personality disorders, no sir". Because that would be a lie.

Dude.

In ToB we encounter an adventuring party of Bhaalspawn composed of a rabbit, a xvart and other amusing miscellanea. And if a fucking rabbit can be a member of an adventuring party, it kind of tells of the nature of the bonuses.

Saradush was indeed crawling in Bhaalspawn, and there's mention of them here and there, but i meant, how many you meet, talk to, and who of them are depicted more in-depth.

Touche on the "adventuring party", but this only proves that divine heritage can make a creature much smarter than an average representative of it's species, but doesn't necessarily has to.

I never said it isn't, I also don't like the lack of stat checks.

My point was that low intelligence doesn't hamper your ability to communicate, as being slow doesn't mean you can't piece sentences together coherently.

But it does, as proven by the manual quote! It doesn't prohibit a creature from speaking (like it is in the third edition), but it makes it talk funny.

Since we both agree that no stat-checks = fail, i think we can bring this discussion to a closure. I still, however, am not convinced that divine heritage must automatically mean that someone cannot be a moron.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

How often did you dump intelligence in favour of other stats in Fallout? I can, with 90% certainity, say that you played a character with at least 4 intelligence, just to get normal dialogues.

The same would apply in BG - if there indeed were "retard" dialogue options, most players would get their intelligence/wisdom at least to a level where they can get normal dialogues.

Then you'd be wrong, I played BG before I discovered Fallout so I built my first character along BG lines, and it was hilarious. Any body who is actually into role playing would welcome different converstions for different characters but in BG race, class, sex, alignment, intelligence only seem to affect what people say to you not what you can say to them.