Rooting for the Empire

[Prone Squanderer]

I keep thinking this topic or a topic similar to this has already been made, but I can't find it via search so apologies in advance and please merge this with it if it has.

Whether it's a movie, game or book, have you ever found yourself supporting the antagonists or at least their ideals?

One example I think of is the military from The Last of Us (yeah yeah I know, overrated game blah blah blah). They are authoritarian; they enforce a curfew, they execute infected people on the spot and they restrict freedom of movement. No one is allowed to leave the zone nor does the civilian population have a say in anything regarding the administration of the zone.

Yet as poor as life may be inside the quarantine zone, people keep trying to get in as it's a hell of a lot better than the outside. The military (at least in Boston) do a good job of keeping the majority of the zone safe from infected and they do supply the populace with food (although they may keep most of it themselves). I'm probably meant to see the Fireflies as the better faction, but I see them as risking more lives than saving. We're not told enough about what FEDRA (the game's version of FEMA) and the military is actually doing, for all we know they could still be trying to research a cure or working on something else.

Plus Rule of Cool, they do have the best equipment and weapons after all.

 

[Jogre]

Arcanum Spoilers Ahead:

Spoiler

Kerghan

You don't usually think of the villains who want to destroy the world as being a good guy, but this guy makes such a compelling case that it's difficult to fault him.

 

[CT Phipps]

I support the Principality of Zeon. INDEPENDENCE FROM EARTH TYRANNY!

Ditto Char.

Grand Admiral Thrawn's Empire.

Baron Zemo when he's trying to conquer everything but no longer a Nazi/Hydra person but a weird aristocrat.

Kane from Command and Conquer.

OCP - Because Detroit isn't going to get better on its own.

I'm also a big fan of certain incarnations of Cobra.

Oh and these guys.



I admit Cerberus had some points in ME2. Bluntly, I see no reason to keeping an ace up your sleeves than dealing fairly with the Council.

 

[Charwo]

Well, I've never played the Assassin's Creed series because I'd be rooting for the Templars. Part of this is because they fight for causes I see as worthy, the Crusader states, and the Byzantine remnants. I was seriously thinking of trying to get Assassins Creed 2 when I discovered the main character HELPS the Ottomans, a force I consider only slightly better than Communists. Also, they like order, I like Order. If they weren't atheistic power-hungry nihilists I'd be all for them.

In Wolrd of Darkness, I'm actually on the side of the Technocracy. In fact, I want the Weaver (the personification of order stasis and science) to succeed in its goal to completely separate the Umbra from the material world, thus effectively killing all magic and magical creatures. It's the only way humanity will ever be free from predation.

And in Fallout, I'm sympathetic to almost all the antagonists: the Enclave's plan is smart in the most Darwinistic sense of the word, as wiping out the rest of humanity assures the Enclave will never be challenged in it's dominance, Ceasar's Legion creates needed security for people to actually rebuild and engage in trade unmolested. If the Master's plan hadn't involved the neural link, and the FEV didn't turn people into 10 foot tall green incredible Hulk rejects and instead turned people into seven foot tall, beatiful, immortal, intelligent amazons and Schwarzeneggers, both me and my Vault Dweller would have embraced it. Sterility can be worked around with artificial wombs and stem cell therapy. It was the effective disfigurement that was unacceptable.

 

[CT Phipps]

Well, I've never played the Assassin's Creed series because I'd be rooting for the Templars. Part of this is because they fight for causes I see as worthy, the Crusader states, and the Byzantine remnants. I was seriously thinking of trying to get Assassins Creed 2 when I discovered the main character HELPS the Ottomans, a force I consider only slightly better than Communists. Also, they like order, I like Order. If they weren't atheistic power-hungry nihilists I'd be all for them.

It should be noted that the leader of the Templars in Constantinople is the Ottoman Sultan's brother. However, the attempts to make one faction Templars or Assassin aligned is a fool's errand as Ubisoft keeps fucking up. For example, they ran into a lot of trouble trying to make Washington and Churchill Templars so they were retconned as regular politicians. Then they made Columbus a friend of the Assassins, seemingly forgetting Columbus was guilty of slavery and genocide.

It's kind of a note I'm an anarchist crazy person in real life and think the Assassins are full of shit.

In Wolrd of Darkness, I'm actually on the side of the Technocracy. In fact, I want the Weaver (the personification of order stasis and science) to succeed in its goal to completely separate the Umbra from the material world, thus effectively killing all magic and magical creatures. It's the only way humanity will ever be free from predation.

The Technocracy is fun to play as I love the moral ambiguity and MIB thing but they're a bunch of pathetic idiots who don't know how to properly run the world.

But then again, I love Pentex and am always annoyed they run it as a 100% Wyrm-based group versus something which is more interesting like a bunch of humans who use evil magic to get rich as well as dominate the economy. I think, honestly, Pentex is far more interesting than the Union.

Camarilla forever too.

 

[Charwo]

Camarilla forever too.

It could be a bad LARP, but in my experince the Cam is utterly fucking evil they couldn't tempt my Caitiff. They were so awful, so obviously morally bankrupt and without a shred of compassion or sense of responsibility, my character walked off on me, addressed me fourth wall style in my head saying, 'You can continue to pretend I'm there, but I'm gone. These are wicked people and they will take my soul if I let them. My soul is not for sale, it's the only thing I left. I must leave vampire society and never come back.'

I've since learned that it's somewhat normal for a character to talk to an author in the writing process, but I thought I was going psychotic. It was amazing...in the worst way possible. Then I compounded the error by playing her sister in Werewolf, which is sorta like going from having gallstones to working in a call center. I love roleplaying, I loved the LARP format but that was one of the worst years of my life, and I once spent an entire year suicidal. I will never play World of Darkness again. I don't deserve it.

 

[CT Phipps]

It could be a bad LARP, but in my experince the Cam is utterly fucking evil they couldn't tempt my Caitiff. They were so awful, so obviously morally bankrupt and without a shred of compassion or sense of responsibility, my character walked off on me, addressed me fourth wall style in my head saying, 'You can continue to pretend I'm there, but I'm gone. These are wicked people and they will take my soul if I let them. My soul is not for sale, it's the only thing I left. I must leave vampire society and never come back.'

I'm sorry, though that's pretty much the way you're supposed to play it. The Camarilla IS the Man and 1st Edition was all about being anarchs trying to overthrow the Elders.

Be a Brujah or Caitiff fighting the rich and powerful parasites who rule the world.

ALbeit, do you have anything better?

I've since learned that it's somewhat normal for a character to talk to an author in the writing process, but I thought I was going psychotic. It was amazing...in the worst way possible. Then I compounded the error by playing her sister in Werewolf, which is sorta like going from having gallstones to working in a call center. I love roleplaying, I loved the LARP format but that was one of the worst years of my life, and I once spent an entire year suicidal. I will never play World of Darkness again. I don't deserve it.

Yeah, the conceit of Vampire: The Masquerade is basically being in prison....or hell.

You're a monster and you will kill people.
However, you can try to not kill yourself and maybe find some way of living with being a monster.
However, the only people you can hang out with are other monsters who will probably make you worse for association
But the other option is solitude, which will make you a monster worse

Is suicide an option? Yes but that has the other thing--you will just be leaving behind a society of monsters instead of affecting them.

It was very popular with Goths, nihilists, anarchists, and middle class rich kids trying to be edgy.

In any case, I'm sorry you experience something so terrible from something I enjoyed.

 

[MutantScalper]

I keep thinking this topic or a topic similar to this has already been made, but I can't find it via search so apologies in advance and please merge this with it if it has.

Whether it's a movie, game or book, have you ever found yourself supporting the antagonists or at least their ideals?

One example I think of is the military from The Last of Us (yeah yeah I know, overrated game blah blah blah). They are authoritarian; they enforce a curfew, they execute infected people on the spot and they restrict freedom of movement. No one is allowed to leave the zone nor does the civilian population have a say in anything regarding the administration of the zone.

Yet as poor as life may be inside the quarantine zone, people keep trying to get in as it's a hell of a lot better than the outside. The military (at least in Boston) do a good job of keeping the majority of the zone safe from infected and they do supply the populace with food (although they may keep most of it themselves). I'm probably meant to see the Fireflies as the better faction, but I see them as risking more lives than saving. We're not told enough about what FEDRA (the game's version of FEMA) and the military is actually doing, for all we know they could still be trying to research a cure or working on something else.

Plus Rule of Cool, they do have the best equipment and weapons after all.

I cheer for the baddies so many times I've lost count. It's almost 100% like that when I'm watching a US movie or tv series, something I do less and less every day. Especially if it's some overrated, plastic hollyweird actor like Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt or whatever I always wish there would be some gruesome real life accident on set and the movie cameras would capture it and they would just show that and that would be the end of the movie.

I've just seen too many movies where John Wayne shoots natives like they are some screaming card board cutouts on a shooting range or Sly Stallone is shooting Russians in Afghanistan in defence of his Taliban buddies etc.

 

[CT Phipps]

I cheer for the baddies so many times I've lost count. It's almost 100% like that when I'm watching a US movie or tv series, something I do less and less every day. Especially if it's some overrated, plastic hollyweird actor like Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt or whatever I always wish there would be some gruesome real life accident on set and the movie cameras would capture it and they would just show that and that would be the end of the movie.

I've just seen too many movies where John Wayne shoots natives like they are some screaming card board cutouts on a shooting range or Sly Stallone is shooting Russians in Afghanistan in defence of his Taliban buddies etc.

While that's a funny joke, the real life story was pretty tragic. The Alliance of Tribes put all of their children in the care of the (extremist) Muslim clergy of the country who raised them all as a bunch of fundamentalist sociopaths and when they returned from the war, their kids were all indoctrinated and turned on them.

Which is just....wow, that's awful.

I will say, Call of Duty: Black Ops felt like, "Let's have some of the most ignorant Americans of all time act like they're heroes."

 

[DarkCorp]

Well, tv tropes is one place I would suggest for a good read. I would never root for 'The Empire', but I WOULD root for the 'Hegemonic Empire'.

If Fallout taught me anything, it is the world and the people who live in it, are not black or white, but grey. Humans really do not work well in 'The Empire', which the closest equivalent to is Communism. The West on thither hand, exemplifies what the Romans do so well, a Hegemonic Empire. It doesn't rule through coercion, at least through its own citizens as that draconian method is incredibly inefficient.

Bread and circuses, lesser of the two evils, cultural assimilation, etc. The Romans for example, would rather assimilate than dominate through direct means. The Persians did the same with the Satrapies. Friendly governments can do so much more that flat out occupation will not do.

The U.S. absolved the emperor for efficiency even though he would technically be the one to blame for EoJs bid for domination. Instead of punishing Germany again for crimes, we avoided the problems of Versailles by utilizing the Marshal Plan, while also making an insurgency much less attractive.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

However, the attempts to make one faction Templars or Assassin aligned is a fool's errand as Ubisoft keeps fucking up. For example, they ran into a lot of trouble trying to make Washington and Churchill Templars so they were retconned as regular politicians.

Wow really? I've only played AC1, 2 and Liberation so I've missed that.

I actually liked how the Templars were portrayed in the first game, including Abstergo. They weren't one dimensional bad guys (aside from Majd Addin) and I like how they were very much like the Assassins in their desire to achieve peace.

Call me crazy but thinking about it now I reckon Assassin's Creed could have been better if it was just the one game (if the gameplay was improved a bit more). It would have been different to have the antagonists ultimately win despite everything the heroes tried to stop them.

EDIT: Changed a little wording.

 

[Steve the Enclave grunt]

Most of the time I find antagonists to be more fleshed out as a characters/faction than protagonists, and they are more enjoyable to watch/read/play as. This applies to all fiction media I've come to contact with (with relatively few exceptions). Brotherhood of Nod (C&C), Galactic Empire/Sith Empire (Star Wars), Sinestro Corps (DC), Sandro (M&M), The Enclave (Fallout) etc. etc.

It helps that in vast majority of cases, the Villains/antagonists look cooler

 

[CT Phipps]

Wow really? I've only played AC1, 2 and Liberation so I've missed that.

I actually liked how the Templars were portrayed in the first game, including Abstergo. They weren't one dimensional bad guys (aside from Majd Addin) and I like how they were very much like the Assassins in their desire to achieve peace.

Call me crazy but thinking about it now I reckon Assassin's Creed could have been better if it was just the one game (if the gameplay was improved a bit more). It would have been different to have the antagonists ultimately win despite everything the heroes tried to stop them.

EDIT: Changed a little wording.

Assassins Creed 4 and Rogue are probably the best of the franchise. AC 4 is at its best in large part because the Assassins and Templars are incidental in their conflict as well as it being an enormous waste. The Templars in the Carribean are the ONLY group among White Men in Christiandom which are anti-slavery. The Assassins are a renegade group of anti-slavers who STILL continue to fight the Templars.

Edward Kenway? Edward Kenway wants women, rum, and booty!

 

[naossano]

The main antagonist in Shadowrun Dragonfall has sympathetic motives, and has good arguments for whatever you tell him.

There is the Master, in Fallout, who want to save humanity by forcefully alter it.

Metro Series can sometime blur the lines between good and evil, but it depends on your gamestyle.

Blood antagonists are definitely bad guys, but you aren't better. Same for many GTA games. Or Hotline Miami.

Depending on your mindset and the informations you can gather, most Half-Life antagonist aren't quite as evil as they look. They do what they have to do.

In Hatred and Party Hard, you are the bad guys, and your enemies are regular bystanders.

 

[Charwo]

Is it Rooting for the Empire when I kind of root for the protagonists of Vice City and San Andreas? I don't root for them because I played them, I root for them because those cities need HEGEMONY, a hegemony the police can't provide. Someone needs to deal with the dirtbags and psychos, gang bangers permanently.

 

[CT Phipps]

Is it Rooting for the Empire when I kind of root for the protagonists of Vice City and San Andreas? I don't root for them because I played them, I root for them because those cities need HEGEMONY, a hegemony the police can't provide. Someone needs to deal with the dirtbags and psychos, gang bangers permanently.

I think that would only qualify if you rooted for the antagonists.

Tenpenny doesn't have my respect, but he's pretty awesome.
Same for Big Smoke.

That argument works for the Boss in Saints Row, though.

 

[MutantScalper]

In GTA games and San Andreas, the protagonist kind of is the bad guy. I mean, you're shooting folks, taking cars, etc. I did like the town, the areas in San Andreas, gets the 'LA ghetto' atmosphere right. I'd like to see a more serious game about the gang activity in that setting.

 

[naossano]

TV shows
- 24 has a lot of antagonists, but those in season 3, season 5, season 7 and season 8 are more sympathetic. (seasons are mostly self-contained, but there are still references to previous seasons)
- Angel season 3. It will be very hard to NOT root for one of the antagonists.
- Battlestar Gallactica (only saw the recent version) is basically a grey vs grey morality war.
- Lost could arguably be seen as the same kind, but the last season is extremely underwhelming to say the least.
- Dollhouse. There are definitely some bad antagonists, but most of the other characters are quite grey.
- The Shield, Oz, Sons of Anarchy, Breaking Bad and the Sopranos. Didn't see any of those shows yet. But the leads are mostly bad guys.
- Millennium and X-Files, didn't rewatch them since childhood, but i recall that they were some sympathetic antagonists sometimes.
- I intend to watch Justified and the Wire, for several reasons, including the one stated in the OP.
- Game of Thrones (And A song of ice and fire). Bad guys are usually bad guys, but they can be sympathetic or awesome. And there is quite a lot of grey characters in the middle. And the outright good character usually don't have a long life expectancy.

 

[cordelionreaver]

The Coalition from Rifts.

When I was a teenager it was because I liked how they looked. When I got older, I started thinking they kinda have a point. It also helped that they weren't written to be complete villains where they would save people from monsters and bandits.