tagnames being stripped

[MagnumOpus]

I read a post here on the fot modding forums while looking for various information that has me concerned about my future plans for a fot campagn. I have quoted a part of the post here.

One of the main problems is that tagnames assigned to characters can get stripped by traveling to the world map and by reloading. This makes scripting for individual characters difficult and virtually impossible beyond the first map, where you encounter them..

Does this apply to every entity in the campagn, or just the characters in your squad? Would it effect situations where the player needs an item from map b to complete a task on map a?

I created a system where I assigned items to represent yes and no. when an npc asks a question that requires a yes/no answer, the player thrades the npc one of the items (in this case its two clipboards that are placed in the inventory of the character i created to be the protagonist in my story. one clipboard is green, and is tagged as yes, and the other is red and is tagged as no via the entity editor.) and the npc responds according to the item given. would this tag stripping effect my system? if the player exits to the world map and then comes back would the triggers i set up for npc dialogue still work, or would the item tags be stripped? If so could we possibly discuss some of those work arounds that you refered to in your post?

I also read a part of that thread stating that it would take two to three times as much work to create a respectable rpg using the fot engine. this doesn't bother me because I don't mind putting in the extra work.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Does this apply to every entity in the campagn, or just the characters in your squad? Would it effect situations where the player needs an item from map b to complete a task on map a?

Only characters, the only way to strip tagnames from items (in game) is to trade them to a QM.

I created a system where I assigned items to represent yes and no. when an npc asks a question that requires a yes/no answer...

Too complicated, and trading items means you'll have to get them back or make loads of copies. Just have the player equip either the yes or no item to change dialogues. Try and read these threads.
http://duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12474
http://duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12481

 

[MagnumOpus]

Only characters, the only way to strip tagnames from items (in game) is to trade them to a QM.]

ok great . thats good news about the items. Just to clarify, when you say characters do you mean squad members only, or all entities in the game that are people? For instance, an entity on map A wants the player to collect an item that is located on map B. when the item is given to the entity on map A the player will recieve a reward. will the entity on map A lose their tagname once the player exits to the worldmap thus disconnecting it from the trigger that would give the player their reward?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Check out the bunkers. If other characters are affected none of the triggers to change click/random speech will continue to work.

 

[MagnumOpus]

thank you for the dac links. they were very very informative.

i don't currently have any variable scripts runningon the map i'm building. it looks like i'm going to have to change that.

the tagged equipped system seems like the way to go. with the use of variables as described on the dac forums it will save me a load of extra scripting in the long run.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

You managed to understand Izno? He lost me for large parts of those threads.

I got very frustrated and took it out on him a bit.

 

[MagnumOpus]

You managed to understand Izno? He lost me for large parts of those threads.

I got very frustrated and took it out on him a bit.

lol! I got the gist of it, but he lost me in the same places he lost you I think. the post was pretty hard to follow in places. I went over the thread, and referenced back to jj86's tutorial on variables. I realised that for my purposes most of Izno's system would be overkill, but reading that thread helped me straighten out my ideas about dialogue.

I came up with one solution for dialogue options, and an idea for another involving the use of remote detonators, but i'll need to look into that one more.

(i'm about 90% sure this system would work, and it would eliminate the need to drop a bunch of notes in the player's inventory for each dialogue situation.) for the purpose of this hypothetical situation lets assume that the player will only ever need 4 dialogue options at once.

with the entity editor create 4 items (i would probably use clipboards) that would represent choices in a dialogue situation, name them choice A, choice B, choice C, and choice D, and make each item a different bright color so as not to get them confused.

on the desired map set up 4 variables named choice A-D that are all equal to false when items tagged equipped are less than 1, and become true when item tagged equipped is more than 0.

set up an an instance with an npc that has a beginning dialogue with 4 choices that have 4 different answers, and list the players choices in the npc's dialogue. the dialogue could read as follows with the player's choices listed:

Hey there stranger! My name is Kurt and I love to eat deathclaw eggs! How bout you? Do you like deathclaw eggs as much as I do?

A. Why yes, yes I do Kurt! Deatclaw eggs are the bee's knees!

B. Can't stand em Kurt. Deathclaw eggs give me indigestion.

C. Deathclaw eggs are for chumps Kurt. Real men eat brahmen guts.

D. Give me all your money right now or I'll blow you'r head off!!

having heard the choices, the player can now equip one of the dialogue items appropriate to the choice they wish to make. the trigger for each choice would be something like this:

Conditions: variable (choice A-D) is equal to true, speech event occoured

Actions: change clickspeech for unit (kurt) to (whatever).

the speech event occoured is important so that the triggers won't get confused about which dialogue to use. you would'nt have to use it if you only wanted to have one set of choices i don't think, but for a complex dialogue that would have more speech choices after you make your innitial choice you'd definately need to use speech event occoured.

You could use the same four variables over and over again for any npc on that map.

i'm pretty sure all this would work. I have only tested it for yes, and no, but I don't see why it wouldn't work with four options.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

the dialogue could read as follows with the player's choices listed:

Hey there stranger! My name is Kurt and I love to eat deathclaw eggs! How bout you? Do you like deathclaw eggs as much as I do?

A. Why yes, yes I do Kurt! Deatclaw eggs are the bee's knees!

B. Can't stand em Kurt. Deathclaw eggs give me indigestion.

C. Deathclaw eggs are for chumps Kurt. Real men eat brahmen guts.

D. Give me all your money right now or I'll blow you'r head off!!

Make sure you use tags to change the font colours to make the player's replies stick out from the npcs speech. http://duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1622

the speech event occoured is important so that the triggers won't get confused about which dialogue to use. you would'nt have to use it if you only wanted to have one set of choices i don't think, but for a complex dialogue that would have more speech choices after you make your innitial choice you'd definately need to use speech event occoured.

If you are using the speech occurred you probably won't need to use variables at that stage. My take on what Izno was saying was he wanted to have generic dialogue (for example to say hi) and then specific dialogue that the player chooses before clicking on someone. Then resetting the click speech afterwards.

The way you are doing it shouldn't need a variable if you are just responding to the initial click speech. The speech occurred is basically just a true/false variable anyway.

Try having the conditions: speech occurred, player has more than 0 tagged 'A' equipped.

 

[MagnumOpus]

Make sure you use tags to change the font colours to make the player's replies stick out from the npcs speech.

brilliant. I hadnt thought of coordinating the colors of the dialogue choices to the items in the player's inventory.

the part about inserting images is pretty interesting too. I could do a lot with a little in game visual aid.

If you are using the speech occurred you probably won't need to use variables at that stage. My take on what Izno was saying was he wanted to have generic dialogue (for example to say hi) and then specific dialogue that the player chooses before clicking on someone. Then resetting the click speech afterwards.

ah that flew over my head then. not nessecery for how i want to do dialogue.

The way you are doing it shouldn't need a variable if you are just responding to the initial click speech. The speech occurred is basically just a true/false variable anyway.

Looks like I overdid it a bit. not too bad though, at least it works . shouldnt take me very long to remove the variables.

Try having the conditions: speech occurred, player has more than 0 tagged 'A' equipped.

i think thats how i basicly had it before i went and changed everything lol, but hey i was able to pick up on the multiple choice dialoge idea by reading what you guys posted rather than just a yes / no system.

since we're discussing dialogue i might as well ask. how well do you think a multiple choice dialogue system would work with a remote detonator?

i'm busy for the next few days, and won't have time to do much more than check the forums here periodicly otherwise i'd hopefully be showing you some sort of testing results.

i thought that the player could use their pipboy to make dialogue choices via remote mines that aren't destroyed upon use and cause no damage. frequentcies 1-4 could be reserved for dialogue.

what i was wondering is about the reusable box for remote explosives in the entity editor. does that mean that the remote mine doesn't explode, and if not does it remain activated after detonation? if so you could pretty much use the same tagged remote detonator item to enter security codes, and select dialogue choices couldn't you?

I'm about to collapse due to the sleeping aid i took an hour ago. hopefully we can discuss this stuff more tomorrow when my head isnt swimming.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Looks like I overdid it a bit. not too bad though, at least it works . shouldnt take me very long to remove the variables.

Don't worry about it, you should of seen the complicated triggers I came up with to try and make a door open and close from two different switches which weren't needed.

i think thats how i basicly had it before i went and changed everything lol, but hey i was able to pick up on the multiple choice dialoge idea by reading what you guys posted rather than just a yes / no system..

Sorry, your initial idea sounded very close to Izno's initial idea. So I pointed you to those threads to show you didn't need to trade your tokens, you can just equip them.

iwhat i was wondering is about the reusable box for remote explosives in the entity editor. does that mean that the remote mine doesn't explode, and if not does it remain activated after detonation? if so you could pretty much use the same tagged remote detonator item to enter security codes, and select dialogue choices couldn't you?.

The reusable box just means that the trap doesn't disappear after being triggered. It can then be picked up and reused by a player (useful for non explosive traps) it doesn't stay activated.

If you used the detonator item to enter the dialogue choices you'd need different traps set up on different frequencies with different tagnames for every possible conversation.

 

[MagnumOpus]

Sorry, your initial idea sounded very close to Izno's initial idea. So I pointed you to those threads to show you didn't need to trade your tokens, you can just equip them.

hey don't be sorry. as i said i got a lot out of the information there even if some of it wasn't relevant to what i want to do. I've read or skimmed just about every fot thread on NMA twice so new info is always welcome.

The reusable box just means that the trap doesn't disappear after being triggered. It can then be picked up and reused by a player (useful for non explosive traps) it doesn't stay activated.

If you used the detonator item to enter the dialogue choices you'd need different traps set up on different frequencies with different tagnames for every possible conversation.

oh well. At least I can do my passwords. I can use the tokens for computer dialogue, and the pipboy (remote detonator) for access codes.

its looking like im going to be able to make the kind of campaign i want to with the fot editor. i can give it some rpg elements as well as create some nice action packed tactical situations. i've been looking for an editor that would suit my needs for quite some time. i do believe this is it.

i'm going to try and get some mapping done this weekend, and perhaps next week we can have a discussion about general things related to combat and tactical situations.

again, thanks for all your help.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I've made you some inventory sprites, they are desaturated so you can colour them how you like. They should be less confusing than using clipboards.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=883

 

[MagnumOpus]

These are perfect! thanks so much. i owe you one.

 

[lisac2k]

Sorry for interrupting this lovely conversation... But I'd like to share some wisdom with you.

I used to try making a dialogue tree option myself, that was over a year ago. I never finished it, because modding Fallout 2 draw me away in totally other direction and I have abandoned FOT modding for good. Anyway, the idea was...

1) The idea is based on floaters.
2) Let's say we have one NPC reply (Reply) and the player has 4 answers to choose from (1, 2, 3, 4). Anyway, once the player tries to talk to the NPC, the floater (Reply) shows above NPC's head for a few seconds - I don't know exactly what amount of seconds, but let's say it's 5. We need a variable too (Var), and a timer (Timer)
3) Now, a timer starts (Timer=0). After 5 seconds (Reply) disappears, (Timer=5), and the variable (Var) becomes 1 (Var=1). Above the player's head shows floater representing answer 1 (1).
4) After 10 seconds (Timer=10), (Var=2), above the player's head shows floater representing answer 2 (2)...
5) After 15 seconds...
6) After 20 seconds (Timer=20), (Var=4), above the player's head shows floater representing answer 4 (4)...
6) After 20 seconds comes reseting (Timer=0), (Var=0)

Now, if player continue conversation (click on NPC) while the 2nd floater is shown (Var=2), then go to... Wherever you want. The same can be done for floaters (answers) 1, 3 and 4.

This all looks a bit complicated, but it's a good concept. Unfortunately, I've never finished it. Maybe it can be of use to you. If you have any questions, I'm here.

Greetings and best of luck!

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This all looks a bit complicated, but it's a good concept.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it's a terrible concept. For one thing it all hinges on the player having 100% concentration on the game. If the phone goes, there's a knock on the door, they need a pee etc and they've already clicked on a character then they might miss the right time to reply. Plus you've got to get the delay just right, too fast and the player might not get a chance to choose the reply they want and too slow you'll put people to sleep waiting for the option they want. That's all assuming that the player understands the whole thing anyway.

Then there's all the triggers needed, timers, variables, speech occurred etc. I think you've failed to see the simplicity of MagnumOpus' system, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it 5 years ago. I had an idea to use the item equipped triggers to change speech for having happy/sad masks in your inventory (though I couldn't make the sprites back then) but it never occurred to me to use abcd.

When you set up a speech node you have a default speech event (they should of added a default pull down list as well but it was rushed), for each speech event that requires a reply you just need 4 triggers. No timers, no variables, no set up trigger, no clones, no deactivating player indexes or moving units between waypoints. Just two conditions per trigger, speech event occurred and item tagged equipped.

This whole concept has just revolutionized FOT modding, if someone had of thought of it 5 years ago we'd have half a dozen or more big rpg campaigns by now not just Awaken.

 

[MagnumOpus]

This whole concept has just revolutionized FOT modding, if someone had of thought of it 5 years ago we'd have half a dozen or more big rpg campaigns by now not just Awaken.

Wow really? thats awesome! the credit belongs to you, jj86, the fot forums here, and the dac forums. i merely put a few pieces together. perhaps now that this system is available, we'll see more rpg style fot campaigns come out.

i bet if we put our heads together we can create even more ways to bypass the obsticles that hinder fot's ability to function as an rpg.

 

[lisac2k]

Sorry to burst your bubble but it's a terrible concept. For one thing it all hinges on the player having 100% concentration on the game. If the phone goes, there's a knock on the door, they need a pee etc and they've already clicked on a character then they might miss the right time to reply.

Not true. I didn't write it in the previous post, but the conversation would stop at the last conversation "node", meaning the last reply (and players answers) would be repeated if player would do nothing. Anyway, I never said it's excellent nor it's better than the Magnums way, just "good".

Then there's all the triggers needed, timers, variables, speech occurred etc.

True, that's why I abandoned the whole thing. It was (and still is) complicated, but I thought some of it might be of use.

This whole concept has just revolutionized FOT modding, if someone had of thought of it 5 years ago we'd have half a dozen or more big rpg campaigns by now not just Awaken.

True again, one of many things which the game needed was a decent dialogue system. Hope someone (MagnumOpus) is going to make one.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Not true. I didn't write it in the previous post, but the conversation would stop at the last conversation "node", meaning the last reply (and players answers) would be repeated if player would do nothing.

I gathered that, from when you said after 20 seconds the timer resets. But can you not imagine how frustrating it would be to miss the reply you want and then have to sit through them again. Then there's the fact human reflexes are slower than a computers, what if you want to choose the second reply and click just as the timer ticks over and you make the third reply? I'm not saying you'd need twitch gamer's reflexes but if you aren't paying attention 100% when talking to a character the system can break.

perhaps now that this system is available, we'll see more rpg style fot campaigns come out.

Unfortunately there's not a lot of people still working on FOT modding.

You might want to right this out as a short tutorial though, giving examples of two or three conversation branches. Then perhaps some kind person might translate it to Polish and send it to the Darkfall team.

One other thing I've thought of, if in your example the first dialogue (call it node kurt1) would get repeated when the player equips their choice and clicks again on the npc. On the first map of the campaign or at least the first map you meet an npc have an extra trigger and speech node. So the first time they talk to Kurt have the click speech changed to Kurt2. Kurt2 would just be a generic "So what will it be?" with an out of character note to remind the player to unequip any letters before talking to Kurt again. With the speech occurred item tagged trigger using Kurt2.

That way the player would inadvertently trip one of the dialogue choices of the next branch before they get used to the system.

 

[MagnumOpus]

True again, one of many things which the game needed was a decent dialogue system. Hope someone (MagnumOpus) is going to make one.

most of the fundamentals of the system are right here in this thread, however when i get the time i will create a detailed tutorial with screenshots, and examples of how it would be scripted.

You might want to right this out as a short tutorial though, giving examples of two or three conversation branches. Then perhaps some kind person might translate it to Polish and send it to the Darkfall team."

i'll do just that. I have a website that was origionaly going to be for a wasteland sequal. i'm in the process of converting it to a site about my FOT campaign, and other Fallout related stuff.

I'ts a mess at the moment, but in a week or less it should be in much better shape. my fiance is fixing all my grammarical errors, and poor paragraphing. she's a doll.

when everything is in order i will create a page with a tutorial about the dialogue system on my site, and post a thread about it here. here is a link to my site.

http://magnumswastelandprojects.wikispaces.com/

One other thing I've thought of, if in your example the first dialogue (call it node kurt1) would get repeated when the player equips their choice and clicks again on the npc. On the first map of the campaign or at least the first map you meet an npc have an extra trigger and speech node. So the first time they talk to Kurt have the click speech changed to Kurt2. Kurt2 would just be a generic "So what will it be?" with an out of character note to remind the player to unequip any letters before talking to Kurt again. With the speech occurred item tagged trigger using Kurt2.

That way the player would inadvertently trip one of the dialogue choices of the next branch before they get used to the system.

ah cool thanks. i'll be sure to include the appropriate fixes when i write everything out. I'll also test it for errors. If you or anyone else finds any more areas that need improving please let me know.

 

[MagnumOpus]

is there code i can put into a string of dialogue that will recognize and display the name of the player that clicks on the entity giving the dialogue? for instance: the player clicks on an entity, and the entity says " hey there (player name) how ya doin?