The truth behind 9/11

Dr. Jerkoholic

First time out of the vault
Sometimes it seems very hard not to be cynical - especially so, when someone is trying to serve you phantasms for breakfast. What am I talking about? Namely the fact that the official story regarding the 9/11 terrorist attacks cannot possibly be anywhere near the truth. I tried to believe. I watched those quarter mile high buildings fall through their jaw-dropping catastrophes over and over again, but I simply couldn’t the cross the dots I’ve been given to play with. It seems as if we are to believe that laws of physics don’t apply when terrorist attacks are the focus of our attention. When you take in account the WTC 7, it seems no building in the area, regardless of design, is immune to WTC collapse-itis. It never happened in the 20th Century, but welcome to the physical universe laws of the Third Millennium.

Both you and I are aware that there is a whole load of conspiracy theories circulating the net: some of which make sense, but most of which are just plain bullshit. What I’m interested in, before sprouting any serious discussion, is how many of you actually believe that the official story backed by the US government is the true account of events that had taken place on that ominous morning of September 11th, 2001.?

I believe in the President, the Flag, and the Statue of Liberty. I believe in the honesty of the FBI and the humility of military men. I believe in the network news anchor-persons, who strive to learn the truth, to know the truth, and to tell the truth to America. And I believe all Americans are so well educated in basic physics that they would rise up in fury if someone tried to pull a cheap Hollywood trick on them.
Hand me that remote, will you? I believe <clonk>. I believe <clonk>. I believe ...
 
Seconded. I don't really get what you mean, except stating that:

a) The official 9/11 story isn't anywhere near the truth.

b) There are a lot of conspiracy theories around.

...



And?
 
Agreed, we all know this.

That said, for conspiracy theorist- check out the pilot for the X-files spin-off The Lone Gunmen. Note that this pilot came out about 6 months before the World Trade Center attacks.
 
Conspracy theroies are the dregs of magical thinking. God, how stunningly pathetic a world this is when people make excuses for terrorists by blaming incompetent goverment agencies.
 
Claiming agencies "incompetent" is the official standoff for the issue, not a conspiracy theory.

:roll:
 
I believe he is trying to say the agencies are too incompetent to even do their official duties right, let alone come up with elaborate schemes.
 
either that or he's trying to say that the WTC towers couldnt have collapsed like they did.
 
Hahahah, this thread is quickly becoming a Babel of misunderstanding.
 
Wooz said:
Hahahah, this thread is quickly becoming a Babel of misunderstanding.

Ironic, isn't it? :)

Check this out:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

It's old stuff though. People have been preachin' this years ago, but for the first time someone has done a decent scientific aproach to the subject, without the preposterous babbling of the so called POD PEOPLE (the ones who believe that no Boeings in fact have hit the WTCs, but some military mock ups with napalm bombs attached + they fired missiles at the towers before crashing...)

Anyways, the link is a good place to start from if you're new to this. The guy is a university professor and has been having some pretty interesting public attention lately.

Here's a lil' somethin' by James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. Complementary to the link I've given above. Though his writing style warrants suspicion... as he basically fails to stand up to the criteria he himself therein proposes.
We need to come to grips with conspiracies. Conspiracies are as American as apple pie. All they require is that two or more persons collaborate in actions to bring about illegal ends. When two guys knock off a 7/11 store, they are engaged in a conspiracy. Most conspiracies in our country are economic, such as Enron, WorldCom, and now Halliburton as it exploits the opportunities for amassing profits in Iraq. Insider trading is a simple example, since investors and brokers collaborate to benefit from privileged information. Ordinarily, however, the media does not describe them as "conspiracies".1 The two most important conspiracies in our history are surely those involving JFK and 9/11.

One fascinating aspect of 9/11 is that the official story involves collaboration between some nineteen persons in order to bring about illegal ends and thus obviously qualifies as a "conspiracy theory". When critics of the government offer an alternative account that implicates key figures of the government in 9/11, that obviously qualifies as a "conspiracy theory", too. But what matters now is that we are confronted by alternative accounts of what happened on 9/11, both of which qualify as "conspiracy theories". It is therefore no longer rational to dismiss one of them as a "conspiracy theory" in favor of the other. The question becomes, Which of two "conspiracy theories" is more defensible?

Then there's the whole other deal with the Pentagon...
 
Ratty said:
I believe he is trying to say the agencies are too incompetent to even do their official duties right, let alone come up with elaborate schemes.
Exactly it. Exactly the reason stuff like Syriana is just a big fucking joke.

The 9/11 Attacks where too well coordinated, too successful in their terrible mission to have anything to do with the CIA or any government 'intelligence' agency.
 
John Uskglass said:
The 9/11 Attacks where too well coordinated, too successful in their terrible mission to have anything to do with the CIA or any government 'intelligence' agency.

Yeah, the CIA tries to missile assassinate someone and fails, killing many innocents in a war crime against a country not officially part of the conflict (Pakistan), while one of their members' roles is compromised (the CIA op who was looking for evidence of nuclear deals with Iraq and found none, which was turned around completely by apparently the Shit House's Offal Office for the Iraq Invasion) - and people expect them to be competent enough to come up with the kind of orchestration required for 9/11? HA!
 
Just read through the page I've given a link to, then you'll have a grasp of what I'm talkin' here. For the sake of this argument it doesn't really matter who was behind this, as long as someone was. Clearly the WTC towers could not have collapsed in nature described by FEMA, i.e. because of aircraft impact and subsequent fires. All evidence seems to point to the fact that the buildings have collapsed in a perfectly controlled manner with minimum collateral damage to nearby infrastructure (they practically imploded into their own footprint). Something that can be achieved only with demolition charges employed to level down a building.

The official theory is rendered implausible by two major problems. The first is the simple fact that fire has never---prior to or after 9/11---caused steel-frame high-rise buildings to collapse. Defenders of the official story seldom if ever mention this simple fact. Indeed, the supposedly definitive report put out by NIST---the National Institute for Standards and Technology (2005)---even implies that fire-induced collapses of large steel-frame buildings are normal events (Hoffman, 2005). Far from being normal, however, such collapses have never occurred, except for the alleged cases of 9/11.
There is a reverse truth to the fact that, aside from the alleged cases of 9/11, fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse. This reverse truth is that every previous total collapse has been caused by the procedure known as “controlled demolition,” in which explosives capable of cutting steel have been placed in crucial places throughout the building and then set off in a particular order. Just from knowing that the towers collapsed, therefore, the natural assumption would be that they were brought down by explosives.

This a priori assumption is, moreover, supported by an empirical examination of the particular nature of the collapses.
 
You're asking the wrong questions!



The real question would be why would someone whose calls himself Dr. Jerkaholic join a Fallout fan forum to post inconsistencies concerning 9/11?


ZOMG! Brainwashing!
 
My dog is an alien, watching over me, making sure I don't step out of line...

We are computer programs...

Elvis is alive...

Bush is the best leader ever...

Conspiracy theories, though fun to think about, sometimes, people are just so fucking dumb, they fall for every one.

Yes, some conspiracy theories make sense, and some even are plausible, but don't forget, sometimes, things are as simple as they seem. Why did the 9/11 attacks happen? Because one sick, twisted man half-a-world away decided that killing thousands of innocent people will earn his pawns a place in heaven. Because that someone didn't think he caused enough damage the first time around. Because we crossed his line when we began to tell the world how to live, so he got pissed and decided the best thing to do is kill people who don't even know what fucking day it is, much less only go after a military installation (I'm refering strictly to the WTC, not the Pentagon). Instead of trying to understand why things don't make sense, try to reason why they do. But hey, who knows, maybe we did fuck ourselves over. After all, we apparently like to be trillions of dollars in debt.

The war in Iraq is actually a coverup for an alien invasion...

Money is chemically implanted with nerve agents that control your thoughts...

Clouds are plotting to wipe out humanity...

China has secretly invaded Mexico, and is poised to invade the U.S., illegal immigrant style (hey, they do look sometimes look alike)...

We are all clones on an island waiting to be slaughtered for spare parts...

The Raliens do know what the fuck they're talking about...

The Tsunami was staged by American scientists to divert attention from Iraq...

Get it?
 
How hard can it be to at least critically evaluate simple circumstantial evidence before a priori denouncing and to a great degree failing to grasp what this thread is about?

How do you explain that the collapses had at least ten features that would be expected if, and only if, explosives were used. I will briefly mention these ten features:

Sudden Onset of Collapse
Collapsing straight Down
Almost Free-Fall Speed
Total Collapse of the buildings
Evidence of Sliced Steel
Pulverization of Concrete and Other Materials
Observed Dust Clouds
Horizontal Ejections of gases
Sounds Produced by Explosions
Molten Steel
 
My friends, the problem with conspiracy theory is not that they beleive that conspiracies happen.

Conspiracies do happen. If there were no conspiracy than Conspiracy to commit a crime would not exist.

To assume there are no conspiracies would suggest that the assassination of the Arch Duke was not a plot? That the German government used that occassion to launch a war at a time it felt was most convenient. It would assume that certain political events that have occurred where not orchestrated by individuals fully intending the consequence of their goals.

Conspiracies do occur. TO deny that would deny the role of agency- that human beings working together can achieve both remarkable and terrible ends.

The problem with Conspiracy theories is not the conspiracy per se, rather it is in the determinism that makes conspiracy the necessary of events.

I have not read the article, but from my understanding what occurred at the World Trade Center was quite a surprise even by those we believe to have planned and orchestrated the attack. Osama said that he had thought this would happen (because of his engineering background) but I basically doubt it.

It had believed, prior to 9/11 that the World Trade Centers might even survive a nuclear strike.

However, my understanding of the destruction (and sorry but no I did not read the link) was that the fire at the World Trade Center was so hot that it essentially destroyed the steel. Steel does melt at extremely high temperatures. Airplane fuel is especially flammable and requires special agents to put out those fires.

There are a lot of folks who speculate that there was more about the WTC destruction than is publically known. I think that's probably true. One such story is that many people were contacted prior to 9/11 and told not to go into work.

That said, I think the destruction of those buildings was a result of the tremendous heat caused by those fires.

collateral damage? What are you kidding? The damn damage went as far as Trinity Church. The WTC complex was a huge area that people used to congregate and relax during the summer. I know. I used to work down the street. The damage was quite extensive.

Edit-
I knew people who worked on the World Trade Center. The WTC was essentially a metal structure surrounded by a steel curtain. Each layer was built atop the next. If you could bring down one central layers, than the weight of all the layers atop would come down atop it. The combined weight would collapse the other levels below. Essentially it was like building a house of cards and then withdrawing a central layer. It upsets all above and tumbles down all below. Much of what you raise questions about can be explained by the forces of melting steel, the weight of the structure, and the following collapse.
 
Ok. If you have read the article you would have seen how misinformed that which you have posted is.

Really, using jet fuel to melt steel is an amazing discovery, really. It is also amazing that until now, no one had been able to get it to work, and that proves the terrorists were not stupid people. Ironworkers fool with acetylene torches, bottled oxygen, electric arcs from generators, electric furnaces, and other elaborate tricks, but what did these brilliant terrorists use? Jet fuel, costing maybe 80 cents a gallon on the open market.

Just so that you know, steel melts at 1538 degrees Celsius and the fires that "raged" were hardly above 550 °C (as evidenced by thick black smoke). With Kerozene you can reach a maximum of 900 °C in optimal conditions, i.e. plentiful oxygen supply which will be indicated by white smoke.

Not to mention the 100,000 tons of steel each building had and that heating steel is like pouring syrup onto a plate: you can't get it to stack up. The heat just flows out to the colder parts of the steel, cooling off the part you are trying to warm up. If you pour it on hard enough and fast enough, you can get the syrup to stack up a little bit. And with very high heat brought on very fast, you can heat up one part of a steel object, but the heat will quickly spread out and the hot part will cool off soon after you stop.

Am I to believe that the fire burned for 104 minutes in the north tower, gradually heating the 100,000 tons of steel supports like a blacksmith's forge, with the heat flowing throughout the skeleton of the tower? If the collapse was due to heated steel, the experts should be able to tell us how many thousands of tons of steel were heated to melting temperature in 104 minutes it took for the building to collapse and how much fuel would be required to produce that much heat. Can a single Boeing 767 carry that much fuel?

Liquid fuel does not burn hot for long. Liquid fuel evaporates (or boils) as it burns, and the vapor burns as it boils off. If the ambient temperature passes the boiling point of the fuel and oxygen is plentiful, the process builds to an explosion that consumes the fuel.

Jet fuel (refined kerosene) boils at temperatures above 160 degrees Celsius (350 F) and the vapor flashes into flame at 41 degrees Celsius (106 F). In an environment of 900 degrees C, jet fuel spread thinly on walls, floor, and ceiling would boil off very quickly. If there were sufficient oxygen, it would burn; otherwise it would disperse out the open windows and flame when it met oxygen in the open air — as was likely happening in the pictures that showed flames shooting from the windows. Some New Yorkers miles distant claimed they smelled the fuel, which would indicate fuel vapors were escaping without being burned.

Note that jet fuel burning outside the building would heat the outside columns, but would not heat the central load-bearing columns significantly. Following this reasoning, the jet fuel fire does not adequately explain the failure of the central columns.

The terrorists apparently predicted the whole scenario — the fuel fire, the slow weakening of the structure, and the horrific collapse of the building — phenomena that the architects and the NY civil engineering approval committees never dreamed of.

Even as you righteously hate those men, you have to admire them for their genius.

As for your platter theory... If we suppose the platters fell as the report says, those quarter-mile high central steel columns (at least from the ground to the fire) should have been left standing naked and unsupported in the air, and then they should have fallen intact or in sections to the ground below, clobbering buildings hundreds of feet from the WTC site like giant trees falling in the forest. But I haven't seen any pictures showing those columns standing, falling, or lying on the ground. Nor have I heard of damage caused by them. Thus my stating that the collateral damage was minimal. Can you even imagine the extent of damage if the buildings lurched down sideways smashing themselves on neigbouring skyscrapers and probably initiating a domino effect which would have left whole blocks in ruble...

Now I know those terrorists must have been much better at these things than I am. I would take one look at their kamikaze plans with commercial jets and I would reject it as — spectacular maybe, but not significantly damaging. The WTC was not even a strategic military target.

But if I were given the assignment of a terrorist hijacker, I would try to hit the towers low in the supports to knock the towers down, maybe trapping the workers with the fire and burning the towers from the ground up, just as the people in the top stories were trapped. Even the Japanese kamikaze pilots aimed for the water line.

Again, read the article!
 
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