V.A.T.S. is NOT a combat system

H

HoKa

Still Mildly Glowing
For the last time, stop referring to V.A.T.S. as an alternative to real-time, as a combat system, because it isn't: it's a glorified cheating menu.

The reason? It's pretty obvious: you can use it, while your enemies can't.

So drop it.
 
What? How is "NPCs can use it" a requirement for a combat system? Combat systems are about the player interacts with the world in combat, nothing more or less.

VATS is just RTwP, a well-known combat system.
 
V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.
 
total BS

i have been shot in the face many a time by raiders druing a vats sequence and have seen super mutants taken down by BOS bofore i could even fire my fist shot in vats

it provides the exact same features as rtwp in that it allows you time to take stock on the fight gauge your foe and take an action accordingly

and it is part of the combat mechanic and has been factored into the game by the creators.

but fine if you find its cheating then meh your the one missing out not me
 
HoKa said:
V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.
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So I take it you would refuse to play Max Payne on moral grounds?
 
Vats is a good combat system. I use it when an enemy throw a grenade. Open vats and blow it up in mid air. A Super Mutant with a high powerful weapon? Use vats to blow the weapon out of it's hand.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
TheFlyingBuddha said:
So I take it you would refuse to play Max Payne on moral grounds?
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+1 :clap: :clap: :clap:

P.S. B5C, i really hope that was sarcasm
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I'm sorry I was not doing sarcasm. I survived a lot of attacks by doing what I did.
 
Well, imo the ability to do those things makes the character overpowered. I guess I'd be fine if it was available on later levels, depending on character agility or perception, but not by default. I mean, what average person would be able to shoot a grenade down in flight?

As for shooting the weapon out, it's fine, but oftentimes the chance is a bit too high, and also AI doesn't normally pick the weapon back up. I mean cmon, it's lying RIGHT THERE!

I know what you mean though, it's a cool thing to have.
 
HoKa said:
V.A.T.S. is most definitely not RTwP; it's more akin to bullet-time, a form of cheating, since only the player can shoot during that period.
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Bullet time is also a combat system. You have a wonky definition of the term, I wager.

Also, I'm guessing you haven't played the game? You most definitely do get shot at when in VATS, in fact they had to tweak down damage while the VATS cinematic plays out (the cinematic stretches on a bit at times while three guys are unloading their assault rifles in your head).

Is it a "cheat" in the sense that it makes the PC a bit more powerful than the average NPC? Pretty much. That does not make it "not a combat system"

I'm glad it's there if only because the third-person shooting action is atrocious.
 
TheFlyingBuddha said:
So I take it you would refuse to play Max Payne on moral grounds?
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Max Payne is a third person shooter.

Fallout 3 is a...Oh.

Well, whatever, the point's still there though: the rest of the world slows down as you squeeze in a couple of extra shots. If, after shooting, my enemies would perform their own additional actions, then we would have ourselves a combat system. Otherwise, it's just fancy bullet time.
 
I would agree, VATS itself is not a system, rather the system includes things like weapon codition, skill scaling of weapon damage and accuracy, the effects of crippled limbs, etc. But VATS is also hardly 'cheating.' Any single-player game is simply an exercise in a person versus a system, and most single player games function by the player being able to do things that violate that system.
 
Just like Brother None said, bullet time is also a combat system (a very enjoyable at that). Just because VATS is not a combat system of your/our dreams, doesn't mean it isn't one. It's just poorly balanced.

TheFlyingBuddha said:
Any single-player game is simply an exercise in a person versus a system, and most single player games function by the player being able to do things that violate that system.
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Agreed on the first statement, disagreed on the second. Good RPGs make you act within the system, your enemies generally having the same actions available to them.And the better the AI, the less "violation of the system" (that sounded horrible, I know) cna one be allowed.
 
HoKa said:
TheFlyingBuddha said:
So I take it you would refuse to play Max Payne on moral grounds?
Click to expand...
Max Payne is a third person shooter.

Fallout 3 is a...Oh.

Well, whatever, the point's still there though: the rest of the world slows down as you squeeze in a couple of extra shots. If, after shooting, my enemies would perform their own additional actions, then we would have ourselves a combat system. Otherwise, it's just fancy bullet time.
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Fancy bullet time while you are still being shot/stabbed/mauled by a death claw.
 
At least you lost damage while you were in bullet time. Vats is like temporary god mode + autoaim in one tidy package.
 
^ Well, you still can lose health in VATS, but the damage is greatly reduced, because you have no control over the character in VATS. For example, I got hit for like 30 damage with a head-on blast from a flamethrower in VATS.

I do think that FO3 would be more fun with a more simple bullet time though.
 
Ausdoerrt said:
Well, imo the ability to do those things makes the character overpowered. I guess I'd be fine if it was available on later levels, depending on character agility or perception, but not by default. I mean, what average person would be able to shoot a grenade down in flight?

As for shooting the weapon out, it's fine, but oftentimes the chance is a bit too high, and also AI doesn't normally pick the weapon back up. I mean cmon, it's lying RIGHT THERE!

I know what you mean though, it's a cool thing to have.
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Well at the beginning I could not, but now im near level 10 with high stats with perception and small guns skills. I'm better at doing that. Also when the AI loses it's gun. The AI brings out an secondary weapon ie pistol or melee weapon.
 
B5C said:
[ Also when the AI loses it's gun. The AI brings out an secondary weapon ie pistol or melee weapon.
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I mean, yeah, sure, but what if they have none left? There should be a mod fixing AI to be smart enough to interact with objects like weapons lying around.
 
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