Working for the Bad Guys

I

IOError

First time out of the vault
Howdy. :)

Have you ever played a game where, despite the game attempting to demonstrate to you that you were a Good Guy, you instead felt that your character was a Bad Guy doing Very Bad Things Indeedtm?

This is NMA, so I'll start off with a (just barely, allegedly, only slightly :D) Fallout-related game: Fallout Tactics. Now FOT was a dog in many ways, but regardless of its high suck factor I have to say I felt like a true-blue good guy in that game. HOWEVER, many gamers have said with some truth that they felt more like murdering fascists in FOT than anything else. A valid point.

Another example might be, say, Morrowind. Did you perhaps think the whole "working for the Empire" thing was just bad, bad bad? It's always possible that someone might feel that way.

Another great example, all the Star Wars games. Personally I was always a great admirer of the Galactic Empire, so I felt much more at home playing Tie Fighter than I ever did playing X-Wing. :D Again, other players disagreed. I knew one guy (taking it too seriously, but hey) who almost refused to play Tie Fighter at all, because you were playing for the Empire.

Or Jagged Alliance? Does working as a mercenary, effectively morals free, make you a bad guy?

Or an obvious example, good ol' Panzer General I & II. Clearly you were playing as the Germans, a recognized bad guy of world-reknown. (Not really a good example for this thread; I think SSI recognized that you were working for the bad guys, and weren't really saying otherwise. But still, it's an example.)

So basically, have your own personal beliefs or feelings ever run contrary to what the game developers wanted most players to feel? And as a follow-on question, have you ever minded feeling that way? Did you enjoy it as just another game, or did it itch at you in a way?

Personally I just go with the flow, but I think it's an interesting question!
 
That is an interesting point. Though it IS a rarity in games, there are quite a few times where you really are working for the bad guys. To add to your Fallout examples, you can stretch the fact that working for the Overseer in Fallout 1 is a bit of helping the dark (or just not so good) side. A lot more games, though, use it as a plot twist: Freespace 2, Dark Cloud 2, and Deus Ex all come to mind as games where you work for the baddies as a plot point. And don't forget Final Fantasy VII; even though your intentions are good, you do some pretty low down and dirty things to reach your goal.

Still, speaking of Morrowind, it's quite frustrating for a game that prides itself on being so open-ended and letting you be anybody you want, that you can't really play a "down with the Empire" type of character (I know most ex-prisoners are quite patriotic, but still). However, that's a pitfall that ALL games run into...there's no option in Fallout 1 to sell out Vault 13 in exchange for psychic powers and first dibs on the women, for example.

Okay, back on topic here. There are a few games I've played where I really felt like I wasn't working for the people I wanted to. As I said before, Freespace 2...I much rather would have been working for Bosch and the NTF than the GTVA (something about how the GTVA sends so many pilots to fight and die in battles when they don't even know who, what, or why they're fighting). Another game that didn't sit right with me was Neverwinter Nights...there's no way around helping Lady Aribeth, even though I'd rather give her and her holier-than-thou attitude five across the eyes the minute I talked to her.
 
Well, oddly enough this relates just a bit to my Mechwarrior thread... I've been playing Mech 4, and in Mech 4 you play as Ian Dressari, the son of a murdered duke. You take vengeance on the Duke's killers, and are more-or-less a "good guy" throughout the whole game. There is one point where you get the choice to either rescue your sister, or get more resources. Neither one is immediately "good" or "bad".

This becomes relevant in the expansion pack, "Black Knight". It takes the plot as if you went for the resources and became Duke yourself (If you save your sister she becomes Duchess and you go out to clean out more "bad guys") and apparently turn into a major asshole. It's a little weird at first playing for a mercenary company hired by the Steiners (The villains in Mech4) and trying to bring down all you brought about in Mech 4...

There are lots of amoral things to do in most Mechwarrior games, though. Changing sides seems to be the norm in Mech'... In 2 you were a Clanner, in 3 you were an Inner Sphere "Freebirth". etc. etc. etc.
 
In Starlancer I couldn't help but feel cheated by not being allowed to play as the "bad guys" Coalition aka the Russians (We all know the Russians will be bad guys, even in the far flung future). The Alliance was just as bad, but through obvious propaganda was trying to make it look like they were the good guys. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not.


Also in Warlords Battlecry when you have to choose which side to follow I was a little confused. The Evil General is obviously the "good" choice, even if he is a murdering bastard, while the vengeance path is clearly the intended "bad" choice. It was interesting to see how following the "good" path left a bad taste in your mouth from the actions of you evil leader, while you commit worse acts as the "bad" rebels, but it always feels justified.

I also hated playing as rediculously effective partisans in Freedom Fighters against the Soviets. Only one Soviet tank in all of New York? Who's brilliant idea was that?! I still felt a little ping of patriotic ferver when we took over the propaganda center and broadcast our message of defiance, but still.
 
When playing Starcraft as Terrans, I never felt like I was one of the good guys, even though I did many heroic deeds while saving the Confederacy from a brutal alien race. Even after joining the rebels led by Arcturus Mengsk I still felt the same way - like I was just a pawn of unscrupulous power mongers. When Mengsk proclaimed himself Emperor, it left such a bitter taste in my mouth that I no longer felt like playing the game as the Zerg as well. Another game with similar context would be Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War - orcs may be cruel barbarians, but at least they are free, unlike you, the humble servant of the fascist empire.

It may be a little off-tangent, but while playing Planescape: Torment I felt immense guilt as I discovered more about my past and learned about some ill deeds of my previous incarnations. This alone proves what a billiant game PS:T is: no other game has ever been able to invoke so much emotion in me. This is mainly due to excellent, remarkably vivid writing that no fancy shaders, bump mapping and facial animation can match. When I recalled how I mercilessly beat Morte after learning that he lost most of his knowledge once I removed him from the Pillar of Skulls, when I had a flashback of some of the torments Ignus had to endure as my apprentice, when I looked into that sensory stone which contained one of Deionarra's memories, I was almost ready to break down in tears. After each of these events, I was even more determined to find out what was going on and make things right at any cost. Once I almost ditched my followers, because I didn't want any harm to come to them like it did to all those other poor souls who followed me before. In most games I have some qualms about playing evil or unscrupulous characters, but in PS:T I think it would be unbearable.

*throws the Grimoire of Pestilential Thought out the window*
 
I agree about Planescape Ratty. Remembering those moments of revelation still sends shivers down my spine. The grim determination I had to finish that game and right my past wrongs is something I've rarely experienced in a game before on that level of seriousness.
 
You have Starlancer Lauren ?

I havent played that in years


That game would so own if you could create and scriptcustom MP maps.



playing FO:Craptics made me feel like playing for the bad guy, one I couldnt even leave due to the linear nature of that crapfest.
 
Lord 342 said:
Well, oddly enough this relates just a bit to my Mechwarrior thread...
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Yeah, your story of the plot shift really bugged me about the Black Knight expansion. It just seemed like sloppy story telling to me, and I wasn't impressed. Especially since I bought Black Knight & MW4 at the same time, so I transitioned immediately from one to the other. I was left thinking, "I beg your pardon? Excuse me Mr. Game, I know the Duke was a good guy, I just finished BEING him." :lol: I wasn't impressed by that at all.

This thread reminds me, for about the zillionth time, that I really MUST grab a copy of PS: T one of these days, preferably soon. On that subject, does anyone know of an online retailer that has a few copies? Ebay is always an option of course, but I don't mean them. It's a pity that CDAccess doesn't have any, and neither does Amazon (outside of auction, that is). Any leads?
 
IOError said:
This thread reminds me, for about the zillionth time, that I really MUST grab a copy of PS: T one of these days, preferably soon. On that subject, does anyone know of an online retailer that has a few copies? Ebay is always an option of course, but I don't mean them. It's a pity that CDAccess doesn't have any, and neither does Amazon (outside of auction, that is). Any leads?
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PS:T is an Interplay release. Statistically, you are more likely to find intelligence in Australia than a copy of Torment in a video game store. Don't give up, though.
 
I have several used copies at work actually. What fools would RETURN such a game I do not know, but there they are.

Thats the only place I've seen a copy recently though.
 
Commissar Lauren said:
I also hated playing as rediculously effective partisans in Freedom Fighters against the Soviets. Only one Soviet tank in all of New York? Who's brilliant idea was that?! I still felt a little ping of patriotic ferver when we took over the propaganda center and broadcast our message of defiance, but still.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on this, Lauren. And the one tank you do see is an easy kill. I always got the feeling that more was going on in the background than just what you were doing though. Like your men occupied reclaimed territory (if you noticed the increasing number of tents in the sewer). Still, there should have at least been mention of the general populace rising up or something. If you take it at face value of a small squad of 12, at the most, people running around and taking over the entire city from the SOVIET ARMY... Well, it doesn't pan out. Still loved the game aside from the rediculous inaccuracy and weakness of some of the weapons. Got really old wasting hundreds of rounds of ammunition.

As far as being a bad guy in that game, I have killed my squadmates a few times on purpose for them getting in the way and being generally stupid. Plus it's fun using them as decoys and pawns. I felt bad for the Soviets.


Ratty, your description of Planescape: Torment makes me want to buy this game. I've only heard very little about it before but people seem to think very highly of it. Thinking about ordering it fromt he link IOerror provided. - Colt
 
Amazon.com has a number of Fallout and PS:T resellers of both new and used, as well as Arcanum and more.
 
Usually when I sleep with a prostitute in GTA3/Vice City, I light them on fire with a flame thrower to get my money back, or roll the car with her in it into the ocean.

But sometimes I let them live because I felt, well, guilty that I was killing them to get my money back after we had a fair and square business transaction.

But for the most part I don't care about what I'm doing might be wrong because it's not real life. I try to be a nice guy in RPG's because being evil is one thing, but being an asshole is another. :twisted:
 
You remind me of the mafia guys who will donate to charity and school fundraisers and then kill their neighbor for letting their dog crap on your lawn again... Or at least the dog. - Colt
 
Ratty makes a good point. While playing PS.T i regularily felt emotionly drained. But it felt good to express my admirance of my party members while talking to ravel puzzle well... God i need a life.
 
I would say Arcanum has a somewhat ambiguous plotline as well, really. You are basically just some schmuck being told you are the world's saviour, though you can do some pretty evil things in it. Even if the general ending is the same, it seemed somewaht like you could be substituting one major evil for a slightly lesser evil, based on some of the party members in your group (The Bane of Kree, etc). Also, the dark elves arent generally as "evil" as one would think in the game, and basically assisting Tarant, the old gnome man, etc seemed kind of annoying as well. Especially the cracks about the orc workers, etc
 
I might also add Wing Commander IV, the first few missions at least, where you have to kidnap people and capture stations and stuff, but you do learn eventually the real "evil-ish" purpose of the whole scheme and switch sides (it kinda sucked that you couldn't proceed all the way as the "evil" confed pilot and if you refused to switch sides the game was unbeatable...)

Starcraft missions are of course another example, with double-crossing, betrayal and evil schemes awaiting you at every mission...

And, ditto on the Galactic Empire and TIE FIGHTER. It has to be the greatest Flight Simulator game ever (along with the Wing Commander series, of course)
 
Colt said:
You remind me of the mafia guys who will donate to charity and school fundraisers and then kill their neighbor for letting their dog crap on your lawn again... Or at least the dog. - Colt
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I get so MAD when I'm speeding along the road, minding my own business, and some idiot turns into me or in front of me. I chase him down with an uzi drive-by and make his car explode. Then if he survives, I hunt him or her down like a dog and beat the SOB with a bat. :twisted:

Ok, so that last sentence was a lie, but I don't take shit from anyone! Unless I'm in a hurry to get somewhere that is. :wink:

By the way, if anyone here plays any of the GTA's, and are looking for a little fun do this:

1. Enter the cheat that makes everyone attack each other
2. Enter the cheat that gives everyone guns.
3. Enjoy the warzone. :twisted:
 
I started feeling bad after jumping on my hundredth goomba, or stealing the turtle dudes' shell to launch at his brother. or those gold coins! Some poor soul must have lost them, and here i was pilfering them as my own. The least I could have done was look for their owner!

I think killing period is a questionable thing. In so many games you just go on endless killing sprees. Even in KotoR, you end up killing thousands of misguided sith and still somehow manage to be of the lightest possible disposition.
 
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