Charisma - how it really works?

[Sanabuka]

So, peeps. As you heard for sure, CH modifies NPC reactions, but what the bloody, bloody, bloody hell it really means?
Similarly to IN gives more dialogue options in general?
Defines chance of walk through things in a cool way? I mean - in critical situations high CH adds dialogue options, which enable you to prevent things from being fcukd up like getting bullet in your head.
It doesnt add any dialogue options but when you pick up the line which can make NPC mad, the higher CH you have - the higher chance that he won't get mad.
What is your knowledge guys in this matter?

 

[zegh8578]

Some dialogue options require a certain Charisma stat to even appear, so if you want the best outcome (most xp) for some of the quests, a high Charisma is required.
Also, your Charisma divided by 2 = the number of companions you can bring with you.

 

[Per]

It's kind of different in the first two games. In Fo1, there's a reaction level system where CH is weighed in as one factor of several (karma, reputations), but it's not used to a significant degree. It matters more that CH affects bartering. In Fo2 there are some dialogue options that are open to people with a certain CH (typically 6), but I think you can most often get these by having enough Speech or Barter.

 

[Sanabuka]

So it gives more dialogue options anyway, but what interests me is does it happen in certain situations (e.g. like I mentioned in my first post - you can chill out some NPCs when things went wrong way), or it adds more options in general? From your post Zegh results that CH affects quests for sure.
Per, are you sure that Speech and Barter can be substitute for CH when your CH isnt enough to walk through some checks? So when there is CH check in certain dialogue and my CH is too low, I can pass it if my Speech or Barter is high enough?
BTW, I didnt even know there are some Barter checks in FO2. Can you guys give some example? For me that skill should be far more exploited in such a post nuclear universe. That quest in FO1 where you can get water supplies for Vault from Water Merchants should be limited by very high Barter check, also decent CH and Speech.
About that reaction system mentioned by Per. What really is a part of CH in it? The game mechanic defines that negative repution has bad effect on good natured NPCs and inversely with bad natured NPCs. So does high CH can help when your reputation is too bad or too good? And I think that system appears also in FO2, not only in FO1.

 

[Per]

Per, are you sure that Speech and Barter can be substitute for CH when your CH isnt enough to walk through some checks? So when there is CH check in certain dialogue and my CH is too low, I can pass it if my Speech or Barter is high enough?

It depends entirely on how the script is written. For instance, here's a conditional from Vault City about getting combat implants with a discount:

if( (item_caps_total(dude_obj) >= 8000) and (obj_is_carrying_obj_pid(dude_obj, PID_COMBAT_ARMOR) > 0) and ( (dude_charisma > 5) or ( has_skill(dude_obj, SKILL_BARTER) >= 75 ) ) ) then

Here you need either Barter 75% or CH 6 to get the dialogue option.

About that reaction system mentioned by Per. What really is a part of CH in it? The game mechanic defines that negative repution has bad effect on good natured NPCs and inversely with bad natured NPCs. So does high CH can help when your reputation is too bad or too good?

There's a fairly detailed description of this in my Fo1 guide. As noted there, the good/bad NPC system is also broken by the fact that no NPCs are flagged as bad.

And I think that system appears also in FO2, not only in FO1.

Yes, but they broke it. It calculates a reaction value but doesn't convert it to a reaction level. You can see this in the MODREACT.H file; the old GetReaction routine which has been commented out ends with a ReactToLevel call, but the new one doesn't, so the new and updated ReactToLevel goes unused unless a script happens to call it indirectly through some other reaction function. I think a handful of scripts in the game do, to limited effect.

 

[Sanabuka]

It depends entirely on how the script is written. For instance, here's a conditional from Vault City about getting combat implants with a discount:

if( (item_caps_total(dude_obj) >= 8000) and (obj_is_carrying_obj_pid(dude_obj, PID_COMBAT_ARMOR) > 0) and ( (dude_charisma > 5) or ( has_skill(dude_obj, SKILL_BARTER) >= 75 ) ) ) then

Here you need either Barter 75% or CH 6 to get the dialogue option.

Good to hear that. Its nice developers recognized there can be a person with low charisma but skilled in conversations and making business. And inversly a person who have great charisma and leadership talent but trading and talking with people arent her strong sides. Unlike to Perception (what I consider here) which unfotunatelly is the sum of environmental perception (a general orientation) and emotional perception (empathy). Looks like for developers ability to finding path in the mountains is exactly the same what reading feelings from interlocutor's face...

There's a fairly detailed description of this in my Fo1 guide. As noted there, the good/bad NPC system is also broken by the fact that no NPCs are flagged as bad.

Then I did read that parts in your guides and I have a few questons about that system.

Looks like in FO1 you can be Champion and Childkiller at same time, am I right? Regarding to your point about Childkiller anyway. I think killing one kid rather than being bad ugly madafaka who kills kids whenewer he sees them, doesnt make you a Childkiller yet. But that about FO2 when NPCs see you as Childkiller after killing two kids. In FO1 you need to kill three of them and thats I think one too many

In FO1 you dont get karma titles like Shield of Hope? I can't remember if there were some in first Fallout and you didnt mention them in your guide. Same thing about town reputations.

And looking at the factors involved in reputation system:

Seems like Charisma in FO1 is a trash stat if there are no Charisma checks in dialogue options and if it doesnt define how many companions you can take with you, 'cause her part in reputation system in view of other factors (especially Karma) is too low. If you can get 1000 reputation points, any 5 points per 1 CH point is funny.
Presence perk is also useless. Three perks for 30 reaction points? Gosh...

Regarding to Cult of Personality, The Vault writes its broken and has no effect in both Fallouts. So looks like its useless even playing evil character. Or maybe The Vault is wrong about that?

Do quests can raise up or lower reputation pionts level?

If my reaction points level is extremely high, discounting NPCs who look at ceartain factors of your reputation rather than your generl reputation, I can insult people, kill them, shoot their brahmins and do many mnay many bad things and they will still treat me like a cool guy till my reputation points wont get 0 or below? Anyway, favorable reaction threshold should be much higher than 51 points.

Yes, but they broke it. It calculates a reaction value but doesn't convert it to a reaction level. You can see this in the MODREACT.H file; the old GetReaction routine which has been commented out ends with a ReactToLevel call, but the new one doesn't, so the new and updated ReactToLevel goes unused unless a script happens to call it indirectly through some other reaction function. I think a handful of scripts in the game do, to limited effect.

You said "the new one" and "updated", so that means latest developer's patch doesnt fix this bug? Is there any fan made patch fixing it then? But maybe its fairly good that NPCs - as you wrote in your guide - look at certain reputations instead of treating you in relation to general sum of everything you do because of this bug, doesnt it?

 

[Per]

Looks like in FO1 you can be Champion and Childkiller at same time, am I right?

My guide doesn't say otherwise so I'm just going to assume this is so.

In FO1 you dont get karma titles like Shield of Hope? I can't remember if there were some in first Fallout and you didnt mention them in your guide. Same thing about town reputations.

Correct and correct.

Seems like Charisma in FO1 is a trash stat if there are no Charisma checks in dialogue options and if it doesnt define how many companions you can take with you, 'cause her part in reputation system in view of other factors (especially Karma) is too low.

Pretty much.

If you can get 1000 reputation points, any 5 points per 1 CH point is funny.

The karma point scale is much more compressed in Fo1 than in Fo2 though. But yeah.

Presence perk is also useless. Three perks for 30 reaction points? Gosh...

In theory it could have been a good idea - if the game had been designed to make reaction and interaction more important. There are other things about the system that kind of make sense from a general RPG design perspective but the computer games just don't have the content to justify them.

Regarding to Cult of Personality, The Vault writes its broken and has no effect in both Fallouts. So looks like its useless even playing evil character. Or maybe The Vault is wrong about that?

As noted in my Fo1 guide there is one very situational use in Fo1 for it. So it does have "some effect" in one game but I would still call it useless.

Do quests can raise up or lower reputation pionts level?

At least in Fo2 quests often have karma rewards, don't remember too much about Fo1. You can probably find the decompiled scripts somewhere if you want to check this out closer.

If my reaction points level is extremely high, discounting NPCs who look at ceartain factors of your reputation rather than your generl reputation, I can insult people, kill them, shoot their brahmins and do many mnay many bad things and they will still treat me like a cool guy till my reputation points wont get 0 or below?

Well, in practice if you do really bad things somewhere people will turn hostile and then reaction won't be a factor any more. As for what people think elsewhere, it's probably best to regard karma as something very abstract and not think too hard about it.

You said "the new one" and "updated", so that means latest developer's patch doesnt fix this bug? Is there any fan made patch fixing it then? But maybe its fairly good that NPCs - as you wrote in your guide - look at certain reputations instead of treating you in relation to general sum of everything you do because of this bug, doesnt it?

The official patch only fixes a relatively small amount of obvious bugs, that's usually the way of things. (If you're looking for a horror experience you can go and look for the Baldur's Gate 2 unofficial patch notes from Gibberlings Three, or the bug list in the Master of Magic complete strategy guide. When you think they can't go on and on any more, they keep going on and on.) I don't know if killap's patch does anything about this, but I don't think there's enough in the scripts to justify it anyway. It may well be they left it out intentionally, as they had to do with a great many other things.

 

[Sanabuka]

In theory it could have been a good idea - if the game had been designed to make reaction and interaction more important. There are other things about the system that kind of make sense from a general RPG design perspective but the computer games just don't have the content to justify them.

I was rather thinking you can get so much reaction points from Karma and other factors too, which makes Presence with her +10 points per level a big waste of perks.

Anyway, thanks for your answers. Its nice that such a legend of Fallout Community has time for just a random dude from the wasteland

If anyone has somthing to say yet about Charisma, may feel free.

 

[FOvet]

I will say this: while most consider Charisma a pretty trash stat, I like to have my characters with a high Charisma simply for RPing purposes. My character, she is supposed to be a looker and a charmer--and maybe it isn't a stat that will do much in game, but I want her character's stats to reflect my vision of her

In other words, it's best not to get too caught up in the details of "perfect builds" and instead just enjoy the game, regardless of whether a stat or perk is really "useful" in the end. It's hard to screw yourself in FO2 so bad that you can't progress eventually

 

[durstlimpbizkit]

I will say this: while most consider Charisma a pretty trash stat, I like to have my characters with a high Charisma simply for RPing purposes. My character, she is supposed to be a looker and a charmer--and maybe it isn't a stat that will do much in game, but I want her character's stats to reflect my vision of her

In other words, it's best not to get too caught up in the details of "perfect builds" and instead just enjoy the game, regardless of whether a stat or perk is really "useful" in the end. It's hard to screw yourself in FO2 so bad that you can't progress eventually

I do it just because I prefer being able to talk my way out of any situation and that gives it a boost. worth it to me.

 

[Sanabuka]

I will say this: while most consider Charisma a pretty trash stat, I like to have my characters with a high Charisma simply for RPing purposes. My character, she is supposed to be a looker and a charmer--and maybe it isn't a stat that will do much in game, but I want her character's stats to reflect my vision of her

In other words, it's best not to get too caught up in the details of "perfect builds" and instead just enjoy the game, regardless of whether a stat or perk is really "useful" in the end. It's hard to screw yourself in FO2 so bad that you can't progress eventually

When I was saying Charisma is a trash stat I was talking about FO1 where it really gives almost nothing.
But yeah, there was a time when I was crazy about finding supa dupa ultimate build. But now my characters in RPGs reflect my real "stats". Even if some particural stat is useless, I pick it up if it reflects some of my real characteristics. I found its way cooler and more immersive for me. And theres more fun to play intresting chars with untypical stats rather than ultimate chars, in general. Another reason is to not exploit a game mechanics like "Oh, that stat gives nothing so I put all those points to that most important stat in this universe...". Simply because its a bit lame and ruins role-playing and immersion.

I do it just because I prefer being able to talk my way out of any situation and that gives it a boost. worth it to me.

But looks like there are no Charisma checks in dialogues in FO1, and in FO2 they can be obtained - accordingly to Per's words - by Barter and Speech in most cases. Ofcourse you may dont want to pick up these skills.

 

[5545Trey]

On which game? Charisma works differently in each game in the series.

 

[naossano]

I thought that the charisma reduced the chances for the guy to be hostile if you pissed him off, or make people more afraid if you treatens them.

On the other hand, there are clearly multiple stat check to seduce some people. Angela Bishop would only accept strenght or charisma, if you try to seduce her with a stupid character.

Also, many characters would simply refuse to talk with you if you have a low charisma. Some of them might even refuse to have you around, like if you were a ghoul or a super-mutant.