90% of Hong Kong residents 'would vote for UK rule'

R

Radman

It Wandered In From the Wastes
Seems the Falklands referendum has caused some interesting reactions around the planet, namely the former British Territory of Hong Kong that was given back to China in 1997 - The South China Post (one of HK's largest newspapers) put up a poll on its website asking Hong Kongers if given the opportunity they would return to UK Rule as a Territory - to avoid the wrath of the PRC this was labelled as 'Just for fun.'

The question:

Would Hongkongers vote to return to a British overseas territory, given the option?

The results are staggering:

Over 90% voted YES - the final score is at 91%

Link

In my opinion Hong Kong should NEVER have been given back to the PRC it should have become an independent City state with its parliamentary powers and welcomed into the wider Commonwealth, it is a subject that rests close to my heart though ;)

This is of course just my opinion...

Any NMA'ers have anything to say on the subject or matter?
 
By saying the words "given back" you openly admit Hong Kong was never a property of the UK (not that denying this fact would serve any purpose, since there was even a contract between China and UK saying it would be given back in 1999).

To admit it was not UK property to begin with, and still advocate that what was taken should not be given back... uncool bro, un-cool...
 
The only possible way for it to have stayed Not a part of the PRC would have been to say that the contract was voided when the PRC took over china.

Of course stating that the UK was keeping HK or saying they were going to make it an independent nation state would have been pretty stupid because the PRC would have just taken it by force.
 
WillisPDunlevey said:
Of course stating that the UK was keeping HK or saying they were going to make it an independent nation state would have been pretty stupid because the PRC would have just taken it by force.
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This sadly, independancy haven't stopped them from doing so before.
 
Makenshi said:
By saying the words "given back" you openly admit Hong Kong was never a property of the UK (not that denying this fact would serve any purpose, since there was even a contract between China and UK saying it would be given back in 1999).

To admit it was not UK property to begin with, and still advocate that what was taken should not be given back... uncool bro, un-cool...
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Hong Kong island was ceded to Britain in 1841 and the new territories held on a 99 year lease - China as a nation wasnt established until 1912 before that it was still a Dynasty the majority of the country ruled by War Lords with the odd imperial outpost.

What we know as China today wasnt founded until 1949 when Chairman Mao (you may have heard of him) led a bloody and brutal take-over - what WAS the original Chinese Republic is now Taiwan.

Its not as simple as saying 'well the Hong Kong people should never have been British' the question should be:

"Was it morally right to give Hong Kong back to Communist China"

or

"What did the Hong Kong people want?"

China has one of the worst human rights records on the planet and still places thousands of people into horrific conditions and restricts freedom of press and speech.

Most Hong Kongers agree that life is going down-hill under the communists and the only thing stopping the slide ever quicker was the 'Basic Law' that we ensured was enacted before the territory was handed back - this was to last for fifty years.

When you consider Hong Kong doesnt even speak the same language as Mainland China and has very different customs and ethics it certainly isnt as simple as 'Well it should never have been yours in the first place' - No it shouldnt have been but sadly thats how colonies work - Brazil your own nation was a colony of Portugal and didnt properly become a republic until the 1930's and even then a proper elections werent held until 1950.

If that was the case then Texas and California should go back to Mexico or perhaps a better look for your own nation should Brazil give back great expanse of land to the native people that still live within your nations rain forests?

It certainly isnt as simple as people would like it to be.

WillisPDunlevey said:
The only possible way for it to have stayed Not a part of the PRC would have been to say that the contract was voided when the PRC took over china.

Of course stating that the UK was keeping HK or saying they were going to make it an independent nation state would have been pretty stupid because the PRC would have just taken it by force.
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Thatcher actually went down these lines during initial negotiation stage and the PRC simply told her that Britains gives the entire territory back OR China would simply walk in and take it by force, which never happened.

The sad part about it all was Hong Kong was never given the chance to ask them what they wanted, instead they were traded to one of most brutal regimes on the planet.
 
China did not cede Hong Kong, it was forced to do it. Just like Japan was forced by US Comodore Perry to open their ports.

Interesting how eager the british are to listen the will of the people that say "we want to stay with the UK", yet repressed hard the people that said "we want to separate from the UK". Examples? Scotland in the middle ages, the 13 Colonies (now USA) and Ireland.

Using power shifts to say that a nation as old as China exists only since 1912 is preposterous. To do the same to justify a takeover and the will to enforce it is utterly ridiculous.

I will not lose my time in such a discussion.
 
Makenshi said:
China did not cede Hong Kong, it was forced to do it. Just like Japan was forced by US Comodore Perry to open their ports.

Interesting how eager the british are to listen the will of the people that say "we want to stay with the UK", yet repressed hard the people that said "we want to separate from the UK". Examples? Scotland in the middle ages, the 13 Colonies (now USA) and Ireland.

Using power shifts to say that a nation as old as China exists only since 1912 is preposterous. To do the same to justify a takeover and the will to enforce it is utterly ridiculous.

I will not lose my time in such a discussion.
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Your comparing modern Britain to 13th century repression of the Scots? You mean the same Scots who are having a vote whether they wish to remain within the union?

The Irish got their independence, N. Ireland isnt as simple as you are trying to paint it either.

In short are you being serious? You arent a native of Brazil as a Brazilian, you are a decendant of a former colonist. History is full of wrongs of the past, what matters is our FUTURE and what we do now - i'd ask you when the Native Tribes of Brazil are going to get their vote or land back but we know that aint going to happen is it? We can all make low blows with our nations pasts, lets not go there eh?

Also I suggest you check your facts fella, PRC didnt exist until 1949 - prior to that it was the Republic or China which was formed in 1912 and prior to that China was a Dynasty.

You cannot deny the figure that well over 90% of HK people are not happy with the way things are under the CCP regime, if you dont want to debate rationally or present a formed argument thats your loss mate.

This isnt an argument on whether UK should suddenly take over Hong Kong again (wont happen obviously) the discussion is what the HK people want - as i've said they should have become an independent state and welcomed into the Commonwealth - the free market of Hong Kong should have had nothing to do with the 'Communist' regime of China.
 
TheGM said:
What about Macao?
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No idea, Macau was run very poorly by the Portuguese anyway so life may well have improved.

A lot of organised crime took root in Macau when it was still a Territory of Portugal.
 
Would the peoples lives be better, I would say yes.

The difference with Ireland is different since the european continent had years of warfare based on 'religion', between catholics and protestants. Otherwise, a history of bad blood.


From what I have gathered, it seems the british initiated a type of 'benevolent neglect', where the status quo left very few restrictions on the development of businesses and finance in the colony known as hong kong.

Also the lack of a dominant religion and the pragmatic way business was handled in hong kong also contributed to a higher standard of living.

Not having an easy times looking for significant revolts against the british by folks in hong kong.



But now we go into the politics. HK was essentially annexed by the british after the first opium war. This alone makes it an illegal seizure in the eyes of the chinese government. Also, the rise of mainland chinas economic and military power made holding onto hk a very ugly option. The british who not only fought against imperialism, but started to view it as morally wrong, could not possible justify its continued dominance over an illegally gained colony.
 
Hah, surely you mean: 'the British who not only fought against the imperialistic ambitions of others getting in the way of their own, and started to view it but haven't yet quite focused their eye on it as morally wrong, were forced to comply with a 'deal' they apparently wanted to squirm out of to a militarily strong 'partner'?

As for the poll, not a difficult thing to believe... but are they sure it was not just a lot of poll trolling?
 
If I was the Chinese I would have flooded HK with 1,000,000 solders the day they gained independence, and kicked those white imperial dogs out of the glorious homeland. :roll:
 
x'il said:
Hah, surely you mean: 'the British who not only fought against the imperialistic ambitions of others getting in the way of their own, and started to view it but haven't yet quite focused their eye on it as morally wrong, were forced to comply with a 'deal' they apparently wanted to squirm out of to a militarily strong 'partner'?

As for the poll, not a difficult thing to believe... but are they sure it was not just a lot of poll trolling?
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Why would it be poll trolling?

It's no secret China has flooded the region with its own mainland population putting great strain on the Hong Kong infrastructure.

Healthcare
Schools

And even baby formula are being snapped up and taken by Chinese nationals.

Then you have the erosion of free speech and human rights, PRC is actively trying to remove the 'Basic Law' that we the British left behind.

Also not to turn this into a morality of colonialism debate but why is it so many of our former territories (Jamaica and Yemen for a start) their populations have stated life was better as a territory of the UK?

Look at many of our Commonwealth nations and they have gone to ruin since the people kicked us out or gained their independence?

Colonisation was an evil thing to have happened however we as the British developed many of our territories and brought the population:

Education
Healthcare
Free Press
Industrial Infrastructure
Roadways
Railways

Condemning us and our history merely as 'evil' is missing out the good we also brought to the table.
 
moral or human rights don't mean much in the real world of politics, the realpolitik (or in another word: power) is the only force that dictates the international relations

I kinda agree with you that it may be a bad moral choice to gave Hong Kong back to People's Republic but what do I think or what do you think DON'T MATTER!

Chinese leadership in Beijing wanted it back and they had every power to do so, we either handed it back peacefully or they would take it by force, no matter how many historical arguments you put up and no matter how ugly their human rights record is, I don't think anything or anyone could stop them.

China today is no longer that dynastic, backward country when we took the HK island from them a century ago, Chinese economy is now 6 times bigger than Britain (Yes, you heard me, its on wikipedia), and it is still growing at a speed that 8 times faster than ours, when they are testing their new aircraft carrier and stealth fighter jets, Brit Royal Navy has literally no aircraft carriers left at this particular moment, when our politicians are crying loud of abolishing our only remaining Trident nuclear arsenal, Chinese on another hand, have more than a thousand nuclear warheads.

Eventually, they don't even need to launch a single missile to make our politicians kneel, according to our own government's forecast, by the end of this decade, 20% of total British trade will be dominated by China, all Chinese government needs to do is simply threaten to apply a trade sanction on UK, that can drag tens of millions Britons out of job within few months, I bet our politicians in Westminster will immediately come down on their knees.

We did ask for Americans' help back to late 1980s, but they didn't give a shit, did they?

History is written only by winners and history isn't exactly on our side nowadays. We don't have to like it, we just need to accept it and deal with it, in the same way how Native Americans dealt with us when we colonized them.

God Save the Queen!
 
dogy_kane said:
moral or human rights don't mean much in the real world of politics, the realpolitik (or in another word: power) is the only force that dictates the international relations

I kinda agree with you that it may be a bad moral choice to gave Hong Kong back to People's Republic but what do I think or what do you think DON'T MATTER!

Chinese leadership in Beijing wanted it back and they had every power to do so, we either handed it back peacefully or they would take it by force, no matter how many historical arguments you put up and no matter how ugly their human rights record is, I don't think anything or anyone could stop them.

China today is no longer that dynastic, backward country when we took the HK island from them a century ago, Chinese economy is now 6 times bigger than Britain (Yes, you heard me, its on wikipedia), and it is still growing at a speed that 8 times faster than ours, when they are testing their new aircraft carrier and stealth fighter jets, Brit Royal Navy has literally no aircraft carriers left at this particular moment, when our politicians are crying loud of abolishing our only remaining Trident nuclear arsenal, Chinese on another hand, have more than a thousand nuclear warheads.

Eventually, they don't even need to launch a single missile to make our politicians kneel, according to our own government's forecast, by the end of this decade, 20% of total British trade will be dominated by China, all Chinese government needs to do is simply threaten to apply a trade sanction on UK, that can drag tens of millions Britons out of job within few months, I bet our politicians in Westminster will immediately come down on their knees.

We did ask for Americans' help back to late 1980s, but they didn't give a shit, did they?

History is written only by winners and history isn't exactly on our side nowadays. We don't have to like it, we just need to accept it and deal with it, in the same way how Native Americans dealt with us when we colonized them.

God Save the Queen!
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God save the Queen indeed.

I find the worlds view of history fairly slanted and somewhat biased, as far as Empires go the British Empire could've been a whole lot worse, especially when compared to what our other European Neighbors got up to with their territories.

Even the US had a go at Colonialism for a time but failed horribly, creating one of the worlds poorest and under-developed nations on the planet - Liberia.

Thought it would've made a good talking point if nothing else.
 
alec said:
Any NMA'ers have anything to say on the subject or matter?
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AFAIK Hong Kong still has a special status within the PRC.
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"One state, two systems",
Hong Kong is permitted to be administered more or less the same as it was under UK rule, but is considered sovereign to PRC.
I'm pretty sure Macau has a similar system, considering all their capitalistic, non-communistic casinos are still running.
 
alec said:
Any NMA'ers have anything to say on the subject or matter?
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AFAIK Hong Kong still has a special status within the PRC.
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With emphasis on the 'one country'

Hong Kongers are supposed to be getting the vote in 2017 but they were originally supposed to get it in 2008 - Beijing doesnt want them to have it for obvious reasons - then again is it any different to us sending a Governor out there every few years? Nah...

I'd argue we had more of a moral interest in the region and population, certainly the way the PRC is clamping down on things seems to confirm this.
 
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