A wee question about German law

Jebus

Jebus

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't Is about the Swastika.

Obviously, they are illegal in Germany. But I wondered to what extend that goes.

For instance, the use of the swastika as a religious symbol among European peoples dates back from pre-Roman times. Is the use of the swastika in that context also forbidden, then? And images of these ancient peoples - the Samnites, for instance, whose clothes and armor were basically riddled with swastika's - are they also forbidden? If so, to what extent? Or if the Swastika would (accidentally) appear in ancient geometrical art -as in 8th century BC Greece - would it then be forbidden to own such works of art? Is it illegal to publish a movie, videogame or whatever about those peoples using the swastika in that context? And how about history books? Is the swastika outlawed in pure history writing too?

Which brings me to my following question: if the swastika is outlawed, then how the hell do German history books work? Are all images of Hitler, the Nazi's or WWII that contain swastika's edited so the swastika's are replaced by little hearts or teddybears or someting?

Also, purely practical: just how illegal is the swastika? Can you go to jail for it? And how does the severity of the punishments vary: how much of a punishment would you get for - for instance - publishing a historical work on ancient peoples that happens to contain images of swastikas? And how much would you get if you made a movie about the Nazi's, containing images of Swastikas? Also, can you be thrown in jail in Germany for actually being a Nazi, and - for instance - tattooing a Swastika on your back? (not that I'd do that, of course, just interested.)

This concludes my wee question on German law for the day.
 
That sounds stupid. I can understand how the swastika can be outlawed when worn on your clothes at school for instance, but why would you not be allowed to have a painting of a swastika in your home, or make use of it in video games for instance? Surely, all movies with a swastika in it are not banned in Germany, right? And does Discovery Channel not air in Germany?

Jeebs said:
Also, can you be thrown in jail in Germany for actually being a Nazi, and - for instance - tattooing a Swastika on your back? (not that I'd do that, of course, just interested.)
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If true, which I doubt, even though I am no Dr. in this subject, that would make Germany the stupidestest nation in the world. The swastika is just an image which most people nowadays find highly offensive by association. The only reason I endorse it being banned at schools or workplaces etc, is because while I do not find it 'offensive' in that way myself, I can relate to those who do. Just as I don't think people should be able to walk around throbbing their cocks about - there's nothing really wrong with it; to me that's equal to someone simply loitering about being ugly, though it's not all that pleasant.

And if Germany were to throw people in jail merely for their opinions, wouldn't that be sort of ironic? Nazis are fucktards, but they have the right to be fucktards and should be able to stick to that right as long as they don't directly harm anyone when they should be sentenced just as any member of society. In addition, it's possible to own things including the swastika in it's Nazi-associated form without actually being a nazi.
 
I think swastika is illegal for all purposes but scientific research and analysis. So it's okay to have a swastika in a history text, but it's not okay to have it drawn on your forehead with a marker.

And there's nothing wrong with banning swastika and fascist symbols in general. Many formerly fascist countries, including Croatia, have laws again symbols that represent totalitarian ideologies. Why, in the recent months many Croatian neofascists who support the quisling WWII regime got fined for brandishing U-letters (U represents ustashe, a nationalist Croatian group that was placed in power by Germans in 1941).
 
Jebus said:
'
For instance, the use of the swastika as a religious symbol among European peoples dates back from pre-Roman times. Is the use of the swastika in that context also forbidden, then? And images of these ancient peoples - the Samnites, for instance, whose clothes and armor were basically riddled with swastika's - are they also forbidden? If so, to what extent? Or if the Swastika would (accidentally) appear in ancient geometrical art -as in 8th century BC Greece - would it then be forbidden to own such works of art? Is it illegal to publish a movie, videogame or whatever about those peoples using the swastika in that context? And how about history books? Is the swastika outlawed in pure history writing too?
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hmm... the first thing to know is:

ancient Indian/Chinese/Germanic Symbol:
..... __............
........ I.........
.. ___ I ___I...
. I......I..........
........ I__......




Nazi Swastika :

..........__ .......
..........I..........
...I___ I___ ....
..........I.....I...
.......__I...........



The swastika is a symbol for the sun, maybe because of that the nazis choose it ("the bright and sunny future of Germany in all it's glory... or some crap like that :roll: ) but I only can guess why they turned it upside down...

Swastikas (the Nazi-symbol, not the sun-symbol!)are illegal to use as symbols for political parties, clubs, societies, sport-clubs etc. etc....

Also clothes with this symbol on it are illegal (except you use it on theatre-stage, in history or other movies)....

[btw: Even if you do WWII re enactment SS uniforms are illegal, but Wehrmacht is not]

You are free to use it in art in a non-affirmative way (my school had done such a project... 50 pc-screens with swastikas on it, to show the danger of neo-naziistic websites...).
There is a nice drawing (i forgot about the artist) with a fist smashing a swastika and the slogan "Gebt Nazis keine Chance" on it

Old Photos in school books etc. aren't censored at all (wouldn’t be good for historical correctness, eh :wink: )

Hmm... you can say: A Nazi-Swastika aren’t illegal as long as you don’t use them to show a national-socialistic (or racistic/in some way unconstitutional) attitude (that means it is forbidden to spray it on a wall without crossing it out… beside the fact that spraying is most times damage to property :wink: )

Religious Swastikas aren’t illegal at all (cause the nazis used a reflected one)

There is a criminal offence called “Volksverhetzung” in Germany… maybe Ashmo will explain it to you…


Arrgh, my grammar sucks again…
 
Dudes, I heard once about this case when they discovered that some trees viewed from above formed a swastika.

Don't remember whether they were mowed down, though.

And I can't link to anything since I read it in a paper and it's probably boulderdash anyway :D
 
As foresters began their task, a new row came to light, involving a furniture shop which has provoked outrage by selling products with names from the Nazi past.
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So, what, could you have like gotten a Goering Wardrobe or a Himmler Coat Hanger?

The communist authorities knew it was there but did nothing about it.
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OMG! Teh commie-nazi conspiracy!

They should have double-checked, amybe the trees formed a sickle and hammer in the spring (like the rose bush by Lauren's home. j/k)
 
As opposed to the religious symbol, the Nazi swastika is rotated 45°, to symbolize motion. So there is a clear and glaring difference between the "good" and the "evil" swastika, and my guess is the only ones dumb and unperceptive enough to fail to notice it are moronic American conservatives.
 
The swastika has many different meanings in a lot of different cultures, including Indian, Germanic and Nordic cultures, and several of them have rotated, switched around or slightly modified versions of the swastika.

I believe that it is legal in Germany to use the swastika for informative and research projects. Thus history books and such can still contain the swastika image.
 
Hmmm... I guess I've never noticed the fact that the Nazi swastika was rotated slightly. My bad, my bad. So that clears up most of my questions, I guess.

Still, there's one thing that still puzzles me: since it is still illegal to use the swastika in a nazi-related way, what are the punishments? What can you get for -for instance- tattooing a swastika on your back? Or waving a Nazi flag around?
 
waving a flag around: 100 to 50000 € (depends on your income) or a few hours of social work, maybe jail if it wasn't the first time

tatoo: I have no fucking idea...
 
Member of Khans said:
waving a flag around: 100 to 50000 € (depends on your income) or a few hours of social work
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Well, that doesn't sound too bad. I guess the 50 000€ fine only goes for the really, really rich people then, right?


OK, so then my Grand Masterplan can continue.
 
This is a pretty good site containing info about the swastika http://www.swastika-info.com/ . There is also a part about legalities, but I think that's only available in german.

For those who speak german and anwältisch this should answer all the original questions:

1. Abschnitt - Friedensverrat, Hochverrat und Gefährdung des demokratischen Rechtsstaates (§§ 80 - 92b) 3. Titel - Gefährdung des demokratischen Rechtsstaates (§§ 84 - 91)§ 86Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen

(1) Wer Propagandamittel

1. einer vom Bundesverfassungsgericht für verfassungswidrig erklärten Partei oder einer Partei oder Vereinigung, von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen Partei ist,

2. einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist,

3. einer Regierung, Vereinigung oder Einrichtung außerhalb des räumlichen Geltungsbereichs dieses Gesetzes, die für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen tätig ist, oder

4. Propagandamittel, die nach ihrem Inhalt dazu bestimmt sind, Bestrebungen einer ehemaligen nationalsozialistischen Organisation fortzusetzen,


im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

(2) Propagandamittel im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind nur solche Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), deren Inhalt gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung oder den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung gerichtet ist.

(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.


(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen.
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I won't even try and translate it so I'll just paraphrase:

(1) Whoever distributes, produces, exports, imports or publishes propagandistic signs that

1. belong to a political party declared unconstitutionell by the Bundesverfassungsgericht

2. belong to an association incontestably forbidden because they aim to destroy the constitutionel order or the idea of understanding among nations

3. not going to do this one

4. are determined by their content to continue the endeavours of a former national-socialistic organisation

will be punished with prison up to 3 years or a fine.

(2) not important

(3) Paragraph (1) does not apply if the propagandistic signs serve the education of the public, the defense of unconstitutionel endeavours, the arts or the science, the research or the teachings, the reporting of history, or similar purposes.

(4) The court may abstain from punishment if the guilt is only small.
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Whew, I should've been a lawyer.
 
Thanks Luke.

That is very wrong. By banning the Swastika they've done nothing less than censor an opinion...just like the swastika wearing Nazi's. I think if they really want to move ahead they need to be reminded of the past. Thank God its not banned in a historical sense.

Seriously should the US ban all uses of Confederate symbols since the Civil War was the ugliest moment in US history leading to more casualties than any other war and actually being fought all in the USA?

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
http://www.sabon.org/swastika/
Very interesting website. (In German, but there are many coloured pictures ;-)
The Swastika was used as a symbol for luck in many countries...
cola.jpg

karten3.jpg

karten4.jpg


I think swastika is illegal for all purposes but scientific research and analysis. So it's okay to have a swastika in a history text, but it's not okay to have it drawn on your forehead with a marker.
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That's it.

ancient Indian/Chinese/Germanic Symbol:
..... __............
........ I.........
.. ___ I ___I...
. I......I..........
........ I__......




Nazi Swastika :

..........__ .......
..........I..........
...I___ I___ ....
..........I.....I...
.......__I...........
Click to expand...
No, that's not right. Both versions were used as religious/... symbols. And both are illegal in Germany today.

To answer some questions from the first post:

You CAN go to jail if you show Nazi-Symbols in public or if you distribute stuff with Nazi-Symbols. It is not illegal to own it as long as it cannot be seen in public..

Swastikas as religious symbols are problematic, as Swastikas in ALL variations are unconstitutional in our country.

Movies containing Swastikas (like Indiana Jones and others) are NOT forbidden or censored(as long as they don't contain neo-Nazi propaganda etc.). However, Computer Games containing Swastikas and/or other Nazi-Symbols are forbidden in ANY case.

You cannot go to jail for being a Nazi. But you may get beaten up by me, just for being a Nazi :P
I think it is legal to tattoo a Nazi Symbol on your body as long as it cannot be seen in public. I have no Idea, what happens if you tattoo one on your forehead...

List of illegal Symbols in Germany (incomplete):
Swastika in any Variation
NSDAP - Insignia
Symbol of "Aktionsfront Nationaler Sozialisten"(looks like a Swastika without the cross in the middle..)

.._____________.
...___________##
..._________##
.________##
.______##
.__________________#
..._________________##
.._#_________________##
...##__________________##
..__##__________________##
...___##
.._____##
..______#
...._________________##
...._______________##
..______________##
..____________##
..____________#

pictures of Hitler/Goebbels/Göring/Himmler/... (if social adequacy is missing)
Sig - rune
______##
_____##
____##
___####
__####
____##
___##
__##

SS - Skull
SA - Symbol
eagle holding a Celtic Cross in its claws (Symbol of a forbidden Party)
Celtic Cross in a white circle on a red flag (Same)
Odal Rune (Symbol of "Bund Nationaler Studenten") [Only forbidden if it is in clear context to this Organization. The German Army today uses this Rune as a rank symbol.]
._____#
____#__#
.__#_____#
._#_______#
.__#_____#
.___#___#
.____#_#
._____#
_____##
____#__#
___#____#
__#______#

"NF"-Symbol (Nationalistische Front)
Nationale Offensive - Symbol
Deutsche Alternative - Symbol
Bund Deutscher Mädel/Hitlerjugend Gau-triangle
Blut & Ehre / Blood & Honour
White Youth Symbol
 
No, that's not right. Both versions were used as religious/... symbols.
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Ok... you're right

I think swastika is illegal for all purposes but scientific research and analysis. So it's okay to have a swastika in a history text, but it's not okay to have it drawn on your forehead with a marker.
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That's it.
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Nope.

§ 86 StGB said:
(„Verwendung von Kennzeichen verfassungsfeindlicher Organe“)
Abs. 3: „Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.“
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Referring to that a swastika isn't illegal if it is used in: education, fighting against unconstitutional organizations, science, historical documentation [...] and art... and i doubt you can be punished for using the non-reflected version in a religious matter... or the Budhistic temple in Dortmund committed a crime.

You cannot go to jail for being a Nazi. But you may get beaten up by me, just for being a Nazi
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That isn't correct... it had to be: You can be beaten up by me, just for being a stupid, ignorant moron of damn racist - doesn't matter if you're a nazi at all, or just a stupid dumbass who thinks he's better than other people cos of any hereditary characteristic, may it be your race, your 20 points of IQ or your significant too small weiner.
Anyway... call me if you're doing so and need some help.
 
Basically, if you're publically displaying a vase with swastikas on it, religious or not, you can get into serious trouble.

The swastika, the "negative swastika" (basically the swastika with the inner cross removed IIRC), as well as any other variations with the exception of the black sun (which is only "restricted", not "illegal", because it has not evidentally been used by nazis) is illegal. Publically displaying it is illegal, owning objects with such symbols on them can get you into trouble as well.
There are a few other symbols that are illegal (the got old S-shaped rune, in most cases) and various others that are restricted. Most non-swastika symbols tend to depend on context a lot tho.

The exception for documentaries is a bit special. You can display a swastika in an informative context and for educational purposes. If it's not absolutely evident that the purpose is not political, you can still get into trouble though.
For some reason Indiana Jones got away with showing nazis, nazi symbology and Adolf Hitler whereas Wolfenstein 3D got banned for displaying those and letting the player kill them. The reason seems to be that Indiana Jones has SOME kind of educational worth (in the widest sense, because it's somehow based on historical events) whereas Wolfenstein was a purely entertaining product.

Trying to make a game in which nazi symbology is meant to be seen is a PITA in Germany because you can't use any real nazi symbol unless it's a very educational game and even then you are likely to be in a world of legal pain.
 
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