According to The Escapist's Extra Credits...

O

OakTable

Vault Senior Citizen
...Fallout 3 has a better story than Fallout: New Vegas because Fallout 3 follows traditional story structure and you don't have amnesia. Huh.

The video in question

Strangely enough, I believe Sawyer and several things in the game confirmed the Courier does not have amnesia, although he might have cerebral or frontal lobe damage depending on your stats. Note how he also complains about not waking up with your items. Odd, I found that my energy weapons doctor nerd woke up with some extra stims and a laser pistol, but hey, it sounds like he only made 1 character and immediately went back to the mentally stimulation that only Fallout 3 can bring. Not to mention, he wants some asinine shit ("Woah man, it would be so cool if I had, like, an photo in my inventory, because that would imply I might have been a former photographer if I thought hard enough") for the character to start out with. Also, I think Fallout 3 gave you the same shit no matter how you spec'd your character (Vault security gear, 10mm Pistol with 300 rounds, 15 stims, BB gun, baseball bat and hat).

He also complains about how DEEP AND IMMERSIVE it would be if you could have perks that gave background to your character before he was shot. Yeah, dude, I think the game might already have those. They're called traits. Fallout 3 didn't have them because 12-year olds are confused by having the option to take something that both helps and hurts them at the same time. Don't know why you started babbling on about RTS units after that.

He mentions that not having a three-act structure or in media res causes you to have a rushed ending and characters you can't relate to. Well, shit, I never related to my god damn Dad in Fallout 3, but I felt for most of the companions and other characters in Fallout New Vegas. Dunno how that happened. Maybe it's because you only talk to Dad for 5 minutes increments 4 times throughout the game and he only talks in Lawful Stupid idealism and Bible quotes.

Hell, anyone feel like helping me make some sort of parody-esque video response to this? This guy needs a stern talking to about his pretentious ways. This isn't just a one-time thing with this guy, he's did overthought 10 minute videos on how Missile Command has great but subtle narrative, and how you should "gamify" education by making smart children mandatorily work with lazy children to get an A.
 
I never had the feeling the courier had amnesia. THe game never says something like that. I mean what do you want to know anyway ? Youre a freaking courier. Sure a few hints here and there to your "past" would have been neat. But they decided not to go down that route. Could have made nice quests. But so be it. What you do with your future is anyway much more important. And here Vegas is a lot better compared to F3.
 
Doesn't the PC being a courier that delivered messages before he got shot count as a background? Also he doesn't act like he has amnesia really, IIRC instead of asking questions like "What is the NCR?" he asks questions like "What do you think of the NCR?".

And my character starts every game with lightweight metal armor and a grenade rifle, all thanks to pre-ordering.

Edit: I really need to make an explosives character since the last patch. :)
 
I really doubt the author has anything in the way of an actual background in literature or other fine arts, making his claims... pretty silly.

Or he never played a "make-your-own-character" RPG before in his life.
 
Tagaziel said:
I really doubt the author has anything in the way of an actual background in literature or other fine arts, making his claims... pretty silly.

Or he never played a "make-your-own-character" RPG before in his life.
Click to expand...
Dude, he's like a totally fucking legit developer dude. His friend he keeps mentioning worked on Modern Warfare 2, so he's totally credible. WHY DO YOU QUESTION HIS LEGITIMACY?
 
I don't really think story structure matters that much, as long as you get your points across in a clear and intellectual manner.
 
Why is this guy's opinion bullshit? Let me count the ways.

You don't start with your items. BULLSHIT. You're given stims, caps, and a 9mm pistol (or other weapons depending on a tagged combat skill). Hell, I pre ordered from gamestop so I got the classic pack.

No three act structure. BULLSHIT.
Act 1: Track down Benny and recover the chip.
Act 2: pick a faction and do quests for them.
Act 3: Second Battle Of Hoover Dam.

Characters are unrelateable. BULLSHIT. Boone ALONE is more relateable than ANY f3 character.

I could go on forever how wrong this guy is, but after all that, I'd just be rambling.
 
So if you don't follow a conventional three act structure, your story is confusing? Damn, but this guy must be very insecure about it or something.

He actually addressed the fact they wanted the PC to be a blank slate, then said ''you already had a life as a courier''. Yeah, and? What does that mean? A charismatic courier could have people following and protecting him. A fast courier is, well, obviously, better. A lucky courier would not die from a shot in the head, ect. Being a courier doesn't do anything more to already shape your character's pre-game life than being a pampered Vault Dweller with a BB gun. Or you could, you know, use your imagination, but I guess being spoon-fed your whole life in a boring 1 hour tutorial is better for some.

I do agree Bioshock did a very good job deconstructing many ''but thou must'' linear video game tropes. And that's pretty much the only bit I find worthy in that video,

Also, the guy's voice is incredibly annoying. I hope it's not made on purpose.
 
The guy spents half of the video talking about what you see in yoru first three classes of scriptwriting or the first chapter of a basic scriptwriting book, and he does it like he actualy is giving any kind of insightful explanation, and then he proceeds to compeltely show that he mostly rushed through the main quest and didn't pay attention to the dialogue at all.
 
Does Fallout 3 follow the traditonal structure?
From what I remember it get's stuck on the second bit and forgets to have a meaningull climax... unless you count watching a giant robot complete the game for you.
Still annoyed you couldn't plug your dad for being an insane sociopath.
 
Tagaziel said:
I really doubt the author has anything in the way of an actual background in literature or other fine arts, making his claims... pretty silly.

Or he never played a "make-your-own-character" RPG before in his life.
Click to expand...

This.
I honestly feel to that this person has probably written anything beyond the point of a game or game mission set up, with perhaps some standard dialog for military type figures.

Since games are now recognized as some art form I get the idea that some developers from AAA titles get the idea that that makes them artists.

Again just because a game sells shitloads it doesn't mean it is quality wise very good.
Hollywood blockbusters also attract millions of movie goers (also because that that is their purpose) but doesn't mean its on par with movie classics that pushed the medium and storytelling forwards.

There are plenty of reasons why Fallout 3 was poor storytelling, ignoring the plot devices that were bluntly... well stolen from Fallout 1 and 2 and used to make up a pretty poor plot.

FNV might not be genius but it sure is better structured in general.

Also this guy is an idiot for wanting Pre Game character stuff.
The idea is when you start a Fallout campaign that your main character in general is a blank slate, he or she represent the player.

A few facts are given to make clear this character was actually around before the player started 'playing' him or her, but that is to help the player into the role when they learn these.

The character is the player and visa versa.

In this case the player is a courier for the Mojave Express, that's enough to start with.
 
There are dialouge choices later in the game that can give your character backstory. There's that singer that you can say you saw play in new reno and the lady killer dialouge with the mysterious stranger's son, and those are just off the top of my head.

Of course, the reviewer most likely didn't bother to do any quest that wouldn't advance the main story.
 
Don0t you see? all characters from an rpg have either be naive affeminate kids or Marines.
 
I think what he was trying to say is that in Fallout 3 your first 30 or so minutes set the stage with:

1. Being born
2. Watching your mother die
3. Growing up (literally)
4. Getting to know your father
5. Getting to know the vault and the people (who lives there, what they're like) and the idea that you were born in the vault and will never leave
6. Building an atmosphere of your childhood life
7. Your Dad leaves inexplicably, overseer goes nuts and your world is turned upside down

Regardless of what kind of person you become, you are at least given a feel for your origins. A back drop against which you can base your character and his past. Lots of people here think it was 'lulzy' and pointless, however I appreciated a character creation that began at my character's actual creation.

In New Vegas, your first few minutes are spent:

1. Getting shot in the head for reasons unknown
2. Waking up with a doctor.
3. Getting a medical examination
4. Here's a pip-boy, see ya

The difference being that Fallout 3 starts you off, quite literally, at the beginning. NV thrusts you quickly into "act 2". Unfortunately, unlike Bioshock (which is linear), the backstory for act 1 comes in a slow trickle depending how much time you spend focused on the main quest (something these Bethesda type games do not lend themselves to). Though in hindsight, this is maybe why much of the "off the beaten path" areas are riddled with giant radscoprions early on.

I'll be the first to say that Fallout 3's main story (like Oblivion's) wasn't something I cared a great deal about. In fact, I quite quickly abandoned it for side quests as there was no real sense of urgency or need. Even given that, I some how managed to care about the main story in New Vegas even less. I didn't feel any attachment or need to help the NCR, Caesar's Legion or House. I didn't care that Matthew Perry had shot me in the face and dumped me in a shallow grave. Maybe that's why most people completed it by killing House and taking over:

http://twitter.com/#!/fallout/status/29131093807

I don't think giving someone a set of 'history' perks makes any sense. Neither does using traits to fulfill that purpose. An easier method would have been to set up that "act 1" with 30ish minutes of pre-headshot play. Getting the order for the delivery, playing through the ambush... getting a chance to have a dialogue with your attackers, etc.

Of course that's my opinion and even if New Vegas has better writing in many areas, I was still left with a feeling of abandonment from the beginning. Surely a lot of the companions are relatable but the main story felt very much off the rails from the get go.
 
OakTable said:
...Fallout 3 has a better story than Fallout: New Vegas because Fallout 3 follows traditional story structure and you don't have amnesia. Huh.

The video in question

Strangely enough, I believe Sawyer and several things in the game confirmed the Courier does not have amnesia, although he might have cerebral or frontal lobe damage depending on your stats. Note how he also complains about not waking up with your items. Odd, I found that my energy weapons doctor nerd woke up with some extra stims and a laser pistol, but hey, it sounds like he only made 1 character and immediately went back to the mentally stimulation that only Fallout 3 can bring. Not to mention, he wants some asinine shit ("Woah man, it would be so cool if I had, like, an photo in my inventory, because that would imply I might have been a former photographer if I thought hard enough") for the character to start out with. Also, I think Fallout 3 gave you the same shit no matter how you spec'd your character (Vault security gear, 10mm Pistol with 300 rounds, 15 stims, BB gun, baseball bat and hat).

He also complains about how DEEP AND IMMERSIVE it would be if you could have perks that gave background to your character before he was shot. Yeah, dude, I think the game might already have those. They're called traits. Fallout 3 didn't have them because 12-year olds are confused by having the option to take something that both helps and hurts them at the same time. Don't know why you started babbling on about RTS units after that.

He mentions that not having a three-act structure or in media res causes you to have a rushed ending and characters you can't relate to. Well, shit, I never related to my god damn Dad in Fallout 3, but I felt for most of the companions and other characters in Fallout New Vegas. Dunno how that happened. Maybe it's because you only talk to Dad for 5 minutes increments 4 times throughout the game and he only talks in Lawful Stupid idealism and Bible quotes.

Hell, anyone feel like helping me make some sort of parody-esque video response to this? This guy needs a stern talking to about his pretentious ways. This isn't just a one-time thing with this guy, he's did overthought 10 minute videos on how Missile Command has great but subtle narrative, and how you should "gamify" education by making smart children mandatorily work with lazy children to get an A.
Click to expand...

Instead of talking about him behind his back how about you email him or his friend? Leave the comfort and saftey of a site that shares your hatred and will agree with you as long as you say something along the lines of "Fallout 3 is bad". He probably meant that Fallout 3 had the superior tutorial because it immersed you in the game and gave you a backstory, the only backstory we get for the courier other than the one you make for him is a few dailouge choices. And you know what? It's fucking true, the game takes longer to get into but your already immersed in the game if it's your first time. Yeah a skip option would be nice, but the tutorial set the atmosphere and wonder about the outside world.
 
Someone really got defensive... Hey, lets send him and email, I am sure he will give a fuck.

And again with the immershuns crap. Backstory is not a definitive indicator of good characterization, Fallout 3 doesnt eve ncreate a blank slate character, it creates a all powerful force that can do anythign in the wasteland without actual concecuences. And even tought I liek the tutorial growing up in the Vault, there nto much you can do in that part to actualy affect yoru character, for example if you get into the fight with Butch and accidentaly kill him your character would start the thrid act in a Vault prison and it igves you certain boosts and penalties, or if he accepts the teachers offer to change his tests and then he rats him out he would start the game with the Overseer's favor. etc. New Vegas doen't give oyu a tutorial on how you grew up period, but it lets you select traits that lets you stablish yoru character as a person with different weakneses and strenghts, handicaps and etc. Thats still a little clunky but its a much better implementation of game mechanics.
 
Blatherscythe said:
Hey asshole. Instead of talking about him behind his back how about you email him or his friend? Leave the comfort and saftey of a site that shares your hatred and will agree with you as long as you say something along the lines of "Fallout 3 is bad". He probably meant that Fallout 3 had the superior tutorial because it immersed you in the game and gave you a backstory, the only backstory we get for the courier other than the one you make for him is a few dailouge choices. And you know what? It's fucking true, the game takes longer to get into but your already immersed in the game if it's your first time. Yeah a skip option would be nice, but the tutorial set the atmosphere and wonder about the outside world.
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You need to dial it in, because quite frankly you're making the rest of us Fallout 3 fans look pretty bad.
 
korindabar said:
Blatherscythe said:
Hey asshole. Instead of talking about him behind his back how about you email him or his friend? Leave the comfort and saftey of a site that shares your hatred and will agree with you as long as you say something along the lines of "Fallout 3 is bad". He probably meant that Fallout 3 had the superior tutorial because it immersed you in the game and gave you a backstory, the only backstory we get for the courier other than the one you make for him is a few dailouge choices. And you know what? It's fucking true, the game takes longer to get into but your already immersed in the game if it's your first time. Yeah a skip option would be nice, but the tutorial set the atmosphere and wonder about the outside world.
Click to expand...

You need to dial it in, because quite frankly you're making the rest of us Fallout 3 fans look pretty bad.
Click to expand...

Sorry about my aggression. I don't like it when someone decides to mock another person behind their back when the same person allows you to email them, which is what the OP should have done instead of going to the site that is most likely to agree with his views.
 
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