All-VATS Combat: 5 Script Tweaks to Approximate Turn-Based.

Q

qi

First time out of the vault
EDIT: Section 4 edited, point elaborated.

Yeah, I hate VATS too, and it would probably be more fun just to get the FPS mechanics up to a roughly STALKER-level calibre.

But - who knows? Even if you don't think my ideas workable, our discussing them could very well result in some useful orientation to future modding projects that relate to VATS and the overall combat system.

So for whatever meagre measure it might matter, MMM so clever m m m m m's everywhere, here goes:

1: Let's assume that the slow-down in VATS is based upon a variable and that this variable can be altered. Continuing on the basis of that assumption, let us suppose that we could find it within the realm of our collective ability to, by changing that variable, mitigate or negate entirely the slow-down in VATS. This modification, regardless of what one thinks about an all-VATS combat system, is sure to be a high priority even for modders who are not affiliated with NMA. It's really just a matter of time - assuming, of course, that it's possible.

2: Let's also assume that the rate of AP points' regeneration, as well as the amount deleted by attacks, are both similarly adjustable variables. I anticipate that the latter value is a property of each individual weapon. If I'm correct, then we should have great success with rebalancing weapons for use in VATS mode, making smaller calibre pistols quicker to fire than the standard 10mm, thereby making them a viable alternative, as they were in earlier games.

3: Of course the key to the idea of an all-VATS combat system, as you've likely guessed already, is to prevent the player attacking in real-time. A scripting engine could very well zero-out your ammo every three or four seconds in real-time mode, all-the-while managing a behind-the-scenes table that would calculate your total ammo based upon your pick-ups, purchases, and number of shots fired in VATS. These sums of ammo would be restored to you immediately upon entering VATS. This solves the problem very simply, you see - and also solves the problem of being seemingly unable, in F3, to unload weapons and thus retain your ammo should you decide to sell or ditch the weapon.

4: Then we would have something a bit alike to turn-based combat. The real-time segment would be your opponents' turns, during which you would be limited to using items in your inventory and manoeuvring for cover and line of sight. Because we could tweak the rate at which AP regenerates, we could then make it your "turn", with full AP, after an optimal interval of time, tied to your Agility stat. EDIT TO CLARIFY: Your AP would return all-at-once, the "rate" would be maximized - but it would not turn "on" until after a set amount of time, and this amount of time would be either tied to your Agility stat OR universal for all players and only the total amount of AP would be determined by your Agility stat. It would really come down to the nitty-gritty of gameplay testing, which is of course beyond the scope of this post.

Finally: It remains then only to halt the AI during your attack animation, which I think could be simply managed by turning all "Reds" into "Greens" (i.e., hostiles into friendlies) via scripting function, during the VATS attack animations. Then we've finally a system that begins to offer some meaningful similarity to a turn-based combat system, as we all would've preferred from the start.

Broken down into these simple steps, the task suddenly seems much more feasible, doesn't it? I've played many of the scripted mods for Oblivion and several for Morrowind, and nothing that I've proposed here seems unlikely in light of those experiences.

One of the scripting engine programmers for Oblivion's mods recently posted here, notifying us of his remarkable progress with Fallout 3. I would love to hear from him whether these ideas have much chance of panning out - but, of course, also from all of you. There may be something I overlooked, or something else that would be grand to include.

Thanks for reading, take it easy.

you liver-spotted texan prawns, you. :evil:
 
All sounds interesting. Only thing I'm not totally sure about is scripting the hostiles as friendlies. That could have some wonky effects, if they're using factions like they did in Oblivion.

I'm also not sure how you'd lock out attacks during the AP regeneration. Maybe not impossible, but might require script extender functions. The ammo juggling script would probably be a bit of a nightmare to write and a bit on the laggy side. Plus adding and removing the ammo would likely create "message spam" (50 10 MM ammo added, 100 flamethrower ammo added, etc all popping up each time) without a script extender function, at least.

I also think personally that the real time "enemy turn" would feel a bit frustrating, but that has more to do with the psychology of a gamer, ie I'm going to feel like I should be shooting.

If it interests you, I posted my own idea to alter VATS earlier today by deducting APs for actions performed in real time, ala Fallout Tactics. Essentially that would be a simple form of this. If you want VATS, you use VATS, then refrain from doing actions during real time while your APs regenerate.


The bigger problem with any VATS in terms of balance however is you are essentially in bullet time. You can use up your APs, fall back to cover, regen, pop back out and perform a flurry of shots when you've regen'd. Unless you somehow work movement into the situation, it still gives the player a hefty advantage in that respect.

But, all in all, I am not proposed to what you've outlined, just musing. I for one can't wait to get mod tools. :-D
 
你好佛!

It was your post, you ascetic sillybilly, that prompted my own; I thought, well, how much farther can the concept be pushed, how far can it be taken, how elaborate might it get while remaining feasible? I considered responding in your thread instead of starting my own, but whereas my intention was to diverge, I thought it much more friendly to start anew.

I do dig your idea, and it's definitely a higher priority than anything we'll come up with in here; your scheme would fix VATS, which is a far more practical proposal than is replacing it or altering it in a fundamental way.

As for your specific concerns, I can't know what rapidly switching enemy aggression/friendliness will do. It's the sort of thing that would have to be play-tested. But there are other possible solutions - you could even just remove THEIR ammo during VATS. The idea isn't really to prevent them from moving at all, just from firing at you while it's your "turn."

Of course the more ideal solution would be to stay in VATS for the whole of combat and having moving and inventory use cost AP - but, being realistic, I fear that's just beyond the scope of what's possible with Bethesda's code. A mod like that would not be consistent with the kind of tweaks that I've seen possible when I played Oblivion's script-based mods -- but, then, I never programmed any, only played them, so it may not be for me to say.

As for the attack-prevention script, there are some other options. For one, your weapons could simply be reduced to zero condition - then ammo stores would stay the same, and the only variable needing to be switched would be condition on each weapon. This does not account for explosive weapons, however, such as grenades or mines, which does complicate things. Maybe one button to bring up VATS and another to bring up inventory>weapons THEN, immediately, VATS? It's a matter for programmers to ponder, really - I can only muse.

I do kind of think that the system might balance out though as a result of your simply being unable to attack during real-time. While you're running from out-of-cover back into-cover, you're doing no damage to the enemies. On the other hand, if all you're doing is ducking out of sight, then standing, VATSing, and shooting - that's a break for sure.

Problems like these to iron out, you know. Not trying to posit a flawless system. Just get the ideas out, throw them in a mix, see what's helpful.

Take care, you candy-corn covered hare krishna, you.
 
If scripting is ever possible, it would likely by 100% doable. I know how to script a turn-based combat mod for oblivion (though I doubt people would download it).
 
It would require a massive rebalance of everything in the game, but I'd say its more than likely sooner or later
 
well, hopefully when CS gets out, its going to be finally possible to make full turn-based combat, e.g. you spotted an enemy or enemy spots you, and sides start to move based on their APs.

you can actually turn on slo-mo effect from current VATS when you or enemy are scoring critical shots for instance, to keep the spectacular part - even being corny slo-mo, it still looks nice, so why not, if your roll says this hit is going to crit, slo-mo turns on and voila, spectacular headshot.

well im kinda just crossing my fingers here, but i really hope it shouldnt be ways too difficult, with action points system still used in the game here and there, should be possible to run the action for each side in turns for as long as they have APs.
 
Funny, I thought about the same things as you did while I played the game a little bit yesterday, although with somewhat different views.

I think the first and fifth point contradict themselves. If you want to make your turn a time where enemy don't attack back, why negate the slow-motion ? On the contrary, push it even higher, so that you don't have to worry about switching enemy behavior for the duration of the attack : while it's your turn, you are the only one to act. I find the current slow-motion speed acceptable, even though the time after the shots you remain in V.A.T.S. should be reduced (fast moving melee mobs like deathclaws close in fast during these few seconds you look at them not hurting as much as you thought).

The amount of AP taken to attack is already different depending on the weapon you use : with 81 points, I can do 2 shots of sniper rifle, 4 of the 10mm, 3 of the chinese assault rifle. As you pointed out, I think it's also an inherent property of the weapon, so it shouldn't be too hard to modify with a construction set.

About the "no real time" attack thing, I was thinking of a different implementation. I don't know if you noticed, but turning on V.A.T.S. also draws your weapon. My idea was a script running everytime you exit V.A.T.S. that automatically holsters it back, along with the disabling of the normal Left Mouse Button or R Key weapon drawing ability. If that's not possible, a script that holsters the weapon back if drawn should do the trick all the same. The advantages are : not only do you not have to run a complicated script for ammo, but it would make reloading a part of battle : you only reload if you change weapons, or pay the cost in V.A.T.S. Your idea would make reloading not impossible, but complicated.

Inventory access should reduce your AP to 0, or at least to a lower value.

Outside of V.A.T.S., I think AP regeneration should be negated while moving. This to prevent you from constantly going backwards to avoid melee attacks or find new cover and get out to shoot with your regenerated points : you'd have to stand still to prepare for the next shots. AP regeneration should be faster depending on your agility (I'm not sure it's not already the case) along with faster movements, but I think this would put too much focus on Agility versus other stats. This would also make melee mobs much more threatening, as ranged one usually let you stay behind your cover without trying to flush you out, while melee run towards you and don't leave you alone, so there would be rebalancing issues.

I don't agree with the all-at-once AP return, it's complicated and frankly doesn't add much, if you want to use a "split turn" to give the last shot why prevent it ? And what if you don't want to use all your AP on one enemy ?
 
shihonage said:
Public said:
So... TB is possible?
Click to expand...

Not really... only phased combat is possible. Enemies will move all at once, stop, player moves, then all enemies move, repeat.
Click to expand...

fine by me if you ask
after all, the game is so ridiculously overpowered in the current state (lvl 2 chars wrecking supermutants with 10mm pistol, wtf), i think its okay to let enemies move all at once
 
shihonage said:
Public said:
So... TB is possible?
Click to expand...

Not really... only phased combat is possible. Enemies will move all at once, stop, player moves, then all enemies move, repeat.
Click to expand...

Better than this crap we're having now.

Although, it makes enemies like controlled by one person/AI, not individualy like in FO1 and 2.
 
Hello again, you chocolate-encrusted hermit crabs, you.

Thanks to all who've commented on this thread. I appreciate your attention - it sounds like these basic ideas might be useful, if ever we've the tools to implement them.

As you've noticed already, I'm not really familiar with the specifics of some of the game's mechanics, such as AP and the like. Nevertheless I think the general tweaks still hold up.

Bowyerte has some neato input, thanks very much for it. Though I don't think the first and fifth point contradict themselves except from a viewpoint that takes for granted that the enemies can be put into "absolute zero" slow motion whilst attacks still may be carried out. This may be so, I haven't a clue - but I suggested the points that I did while under the impression that there is but one slow-mo variable that applies globally, to both the player and enemies. If this isn't the case, then that changes things enormously - can anyone confirm what the situation is?

I don't mind the VATS slow-mo myself so much, it's just that the camera angles frequently make it pointless. I really don't care to see myself firing, for example; nothing's going on there. The first tweak is, ultimately, cosmetic, but I mention it because I assumed it would have a lot of appeal and as a way to get the ball rolling with the most simple sort of tweak to VATS - a springboard, in terms of experience, for what would come after, you see. But I suppose it's not really necessary.

I hadn't noticed that the AP was different for weapons already, I fail to pay attention to things like that - but I still get the impression that Chinese pistols, 32 pistols, etc., are really useless in comparison to the 10mm pistol. It would be nice if they had some kind of benefit, to add a bit of variety to the game, and a lower cost in AP (to simulate their lower velocity/kick making for easier rapid trigger-pulls) would seem sensible, and in keeping with turn-based tactical conventions.

I love the idea about no real-time attacking, though. That's a much more sensible implementation than the scheme I thought up. Good show. Same for your points about AP regeneration whilst moving, though I think perhaps it should only be paused in its regeneration, not zeroed out. This might've been what you meant, but I'm just mentioning it for the sake of clarity. In any case, you're right, it makes melee opponents much more threatening - now if only we could make melee a viable form of combat for the player... Immense reduction in AP cost of attacks, perhaps, so that a player with enough strength and total AP would out-damage typical ranged attacks? Just a thought...

I think that agility should be the most important stat in relation to AP, so I'm not sure if it would really "put too much focus" on it to make it that much more important. I do think that part of rebalancing the system as it becomes turn-based, though, would be to link, as much as is possible, accuracy to Perception, which would sort of even things out for a ranged character (much as Strength should do for melee/unarmed.)

I can't say whether all-at-once AP would be any better than a tick-by-tick regeneration, and never intended to advocate it at the exclusion of other options, if I wasn't clear. But I did suggest that particular tweak with my standpoint being the fact that in the first two Fallout games, regardless of whether you needed only a "split turn to give the last shot," you had to wait your turn and use whatever AP you would've had anyway -- and waste whatever APs you couldn't find use for. As to which is the better for a VATS-based system, which can never be made truly turn-based, I think the only real way to know is to play-test both ways. But in any case, there's no need to "use all your AP on one enemy," as even in the vanilla version of VATS you're free to split attacks between different enemies.

Not nitpicking you, Bowyerte, don't get the wrong idea - just trying to hash these things out thoroughly, you know. Thanks for all your ideas. :)

Righto, have what fun you can manage, bye.
 
About Slow-Mo, I don't know the specific either, but it does seem that I shoot faster using it than in real time. This is most noticeable when shooting a chinese assault rifle on a melee enemy : I can unload my ammo in V.A.T.S. while not recieving a single hit. I admit this may be biased by the usual "knockback" effect of crippling members that generally occur in this scenario.

I agree some weapons are useless as they are. I never used the Chinese 10mm, the .32 Pistol or the Assault Rifle because better variants are available at about the same time, or even before... Some on the other hand are *too* useful, especially the special ones like Lincoln's Repeater, the BlackHawk or A32-1 Plasma Rifle, and they're not particularly hard to find (following quest markers is hardly a challenge).

I wasn't clear about AP regeneration during movement. I meant that the regeneration would be paused, as you guessed. Zeroing AP would be a little harsh, and applying a cost to movement would be bothersome when just running from one place to another, as you'd have to camp for a while before the first shot can be made. I hadn't thought of player character doing melee though, probably because I never did so in any Fallout, except at the beginning of FO2 where you have no choice. I'll give it a try and come back with some suggestions.

As stupid as that may sound, I never noticed you could switch foes in V.A.T.S. This along with the holstering of weapon, and the Pip Boy flashlight, shows how carefully I read the manual.
 
You can change VATS slowmo and camera angles with Fomm. Idk about the other stuff tho
 
Slomo is very simple...
there is a script-command (GlobalTimeMultiplier) that can be executed via console:

sgtm (float)
sgtm 1.0 means normal time flow

It affects global timer, movements, even sounds (!).

This could be a perfect time-bullet, I just down understand how to map this script command to the keys.... anyone could help me?
 
Hey.

Well i'm fully aware of annoyingness of VATS. Esspecialy of it's slowmo... I just can't figure out anything else to do.

I checked that Global TIme Multiplier and it keeps reseting in VATS mode.

P.S.

My file disappeared from Nexus, i don't know why... Here is what i changed:

fVATSplayerdamagemult vanilla 0.1 my 1.5 which gives 150% damage taken in VATS mode.
fVATSplaybackdelay vanilla 0.17 my 1.3 which gives 13 seconds for computer "Turn".
factionpointsrestorerate vanilla 4 my 3200 which gives instant APs regeneration.
factionpointsreload vanilla 10 my 40 which increases reload APs cost.
 
Oh that might be the answer anyway i uploadet it again:

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=128

I will copy my reply for you... i was writting it when file disappeared... It better fits here anyway.

As i stated it's hell far from perfection but i can't make up anything else.

If only we have idea how that slowmotion is made... I'm pretty sure it's done through hidden game settings (like level cap i.e. i couldn't find it nowhere in Fallout3.esm).
I red all game settings, globals, scripts...
I even tried to guess it through console...

Getting rid of slowmotion is highest priority :(

Anyway we should start somewhere. And idea of prolonging computer's "Turn" in VATS looks in perspective of getting rid of slowmo better for me than running around in real time waiting for ap regen...
 
Hi Von!

Your mod sounds neat. I'm downloading it now, but won't be able to try it out until later. I'm curious though - what led you to choose 13 seconds as the optimal length for the enemy's turn?
 
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