American schools?

bob_the_rambler

Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
i was recently watching a T.V. program on education, the main idea was that american standards in schools have dropped dramatically in the past 100 years. while in my experience this is true, what do other people from different countries think?

im posting, to gather input on american public schools vs the worlds public schools.
 
Yes, I think American standards are going to hell. If I was a conspiracy theorist I would argue that this is really about protecting the wealthy classes from the lower classes, and that the whole school voucher system is part of that conspiracy.

But the problem is one of finance and money. Think about the structural issues- Teachers are underpaid do many who would go into teaching would rather have careers in which they can do more to take care of their families.

Schools are also required to undertake programs often without adequate funding, often imposed from the federal government.

Schools are also financed, in the US, through local property taxes. So poor neighborhoods have poorer quality schools, richer neighborhoods have better schools or they send their kids to private schools. In New York for instance you can make the comparison. In the city most, but not all the schools, are doing badly and are underfinanced. Most of the families that have enough money to spend on education send their kids to private schools. If you move out onto Long Island- to the richer suburbs, you will probably see that the schools in the wealthier neighborhoods usually have the better schools.

I see this at college- students that come from poor inner-city schools or poor rural districts do worse that kids that come from rich suburban communities or expensive private schools.
 
Hrmph. I've heard this a lot: In comparison with our schools, American schools suck huge donkey balls.
From what I now (correct me if I'm wrong) American schools only have one level of learning, not dividing students up into multiple levels of learning, and this probably causes most of the problems.

The level and speed of schooling is always adjusted to the slowest learner, and this means that a lot of pupils will be learning at a much lower level than they are capable of. Ah well...
 
From what I now (correct me if I'm wrong) American schools only have one level of learning, not dividing students up into multiple levels of learning, and this probably causes most of the problems.

That's incorrect. In my school, you've got three basic levels -

Standard - for "slower" learners (most of your minorities fall into these classes)
Academic - the average student
Honors/Advanced Placement - the above average student (as welsh said...for some reason the majority of the students in these classes are white soccer players, whose parents are on the school board or live in the "upper class" section of town)

Also - "know" has a 'k' in it.

Most schools seem to be divided like that.
 
Yes, Malk is right. There are different levels of education. In fact, where I went to high school they even gave some of the highschool kids who weren't college bound the chance to go to trade school- some became chefs, others mechanics or carpenters, etc.

That said, I believe the montisorri schools (sorry for the bad spelling) are based on student performance, either becoming accellerated or delayed depending on the student's capacity to learn.

Ideally, and in a perfect world, it might be better if every student could learn at his own pace. But realistically, when you have an entire class, you can't slow down or pace yourself to the weakest student. I have seen teachers do that here, and it fucks up the class.

People learn at different levels and different speeds. Sometimes they have to catch up.

This is not merely a matter of academic learning and, in this regard, I have a bit of praise for the American system. Suppose a kid is having a tough time during his teen years, seems to be a slow learner, gets distracted and doesn't have the grades to make it to college. In some systems he's washed out.

However, in the US it is possible for him to get back on track. It is, for example, possible that a student who does not have competitive grades or lacks the maturity to go to college, to adjust.

He could take some time off, perhaps even go Army for the GI Bill, study, get focused and straightened out, do two years community college, do well, and transfer to an exceptionally good college from which he could climb or achieve a better quality of life.

This has happened. A friend of mine was a stoner in high school, screwed around during his 20s, finally got a high school equivalency, went to community college, transferred to a 4 year. Graduated, worked, went to law school and is now practicing labor law in New York.

One of the arguments being made is the issue of affirmative action in college and ending affirmative action programs. But for reasons outlined above, it is only in college where affirmative action could really work and a society becomes more egalitarian. You can't really compare the quality of a high school in a poor, predominanty black neighborhood or a poor rural white neighborhood to a rich suburb.

It's not that the kids are dumber, but that they didn't have the same chances to succeed that other kids did. Why? Because schools are paid for through local property taxes.
 
I wish that we students could get a more personalized education. For example, striving to be some sort of computer administrator for a large-ish company, I won't need much History to achieve that goal; yet I'm forced to take that course anyway... -_-;

But, of course, that's too much of a hassle. Lazy fucks. And they wonder why I'm so lazy.
 
Nomad-

getting an education is not just about getting job training. I highly recommend learning some useful skills while in college or in high school. But education is about other values as well.

In part it's about being indoctrinated in a culture as well as learning the essential communicative and logical skills. It's also, at least theoretically about being a more critical thinker. Emphasis on athletics and music are about making more well-rounded a person, and about exposure to different values and intersocial behavior.

There's more to it than just job training.
 
welsh said:
One of the arguments being made is the issue of affirmative action in college and ending affirmative action programs. But for reasons outlined above, it is only in college where affirmative action could really work and a society becomes more egalitarian. You can't really compare the quality of a high school in a poor, predominanty black neighborhood or a poor rural white neighborhood to a rich suburb.

It's not that the kids are dumber, but that they didn't have the same chances to succeed that other kids did. Why? Because schools are paid for through local property taxes.

Kinda disagree with you on that one there Welsh. That is more of a class issue than it is a race one. The difference between affirmative action in the work place, and affirmative action in school enrollments, is that there is no point system to gauge the level of achievement and hardships when getting a job, but there is one when it comes to getting accepted into schools. It's unfair that a poor white kid living in the ghetto wouldn't be accepted into a university because he is white, yet a rich black kid would because he is black, yet he had all the advantages that the upper-classes has to offer.

I personally feel that poor white people have it the worst in American society. Not only do they lack all the benefits of affirmative action and other like policies, but from what I've gathered, most people, especially other whites, tend to look down on them like white trash, yet most minorities tend to look at their poorer minorities with compassion, and try to give back to the community. Even white people seem to do more for the poorer races than they do for their own.

Anyways, about the american public education system, it really fucking blows, and I don't think poor funding is to blame. The general shittiness and stupidity of the teachers, and the lack of care on the part of the parents are the primary reason for the radical decline of the sytem IMO. I'm a product of our PES(fuck that, we know what that means), and went to a brand new school that recieved an ungodly amount of funding when it first opened, and yet, it still scored poorly. Why? Because most of the teachers were pompous imbeciles who knew they could get away with doing a shit job because their unions would give hell if they ever tried to have them fired.

I used to have a teacher who would tell us: "If you want get an A in this class, put your heads down on your desks, and shut the fuck up!!!" What sort of shit is that?! The pathetic part about itis that the guy is probably still teaching. There were many other teachers who would just go half-assed through the motions of teaching, and would grade you on whether they liked you or not. If you only the knew the number of times I had to correct my math teachers, you would think that I was teaching the class. I'm proud to say that I was an A3F student, and that was because I often gave my teachers hell, but I always aced their tests, although I often didn't recieve such high grades when the grading was a bit more subjective on the teachers part. I think I only had three decent teachers throughout my public education, and one of them was a gym instructer, and another was my wrestling coach.

Parents also aren't as involved in their children's educational lives as they should be. They should visiting the schools, observing the teachers, and giving them hell if they suck. I think that's another reason why education is poorer among lower class schools, since the parent's probably lack the time to see how the school is run, or too ignorant to know whether they're doing a good job or not.

Pumping more money into the system isn't going to solve its problems IMO. That's just like giving an incompetant CEO more money to improve the companies finances. What we need to do is to create a grading system for teachers that would be reflected by how well their students do (which, BTW, is being fought tooth and nail by the teachers union) or even getting rid of the union period.

BTW, does anyone know when the teachers union was instituted in this country. I believe we should be able to see a steay decline in education once it became more widespread.
 
That's incorrect.
Then I stand corrected.
Here, it's different, though. The levels are truly different, and the years you spend in school and to what school you go depend on the level of education you're getting (it is not so that you cannot get a certain education because of lack of money. Everyone gets subsidized, and if you can't even pay for it then, you just get more money from the government. Oh goodie.)

On drop-outs: Here, if you can't make it, you go to a lower level. And then to a lower level still, until you've hit the lowest level, where you get extremely personalised education etc.
And, of course, there are lots of opportunities to get a high school diploma during any time in your life. The USA really isn't any better there.

On education in general:
Education is supposed to give you a broad basis for whatever you may want to do in the future, and I'm very glad that it does. If I would have had to choose when I was 12 (11) what courses I should take in school, I would never have been along this path, but along the path of a linguist. Now I've chosen for more technical courses, and basically dropped all languages ('cept for English), and added history as well. These are choices I would never have made five or six years back, and that is part of why people should get as broad an education as possible, at least in the beginning.

Also - "know" has a 'k' in it.
Typo.
Do you want me to go around grammar-bitching your ass? If you do...be prepared. I can get really annoying...
 
School is fucking stupid. Why do they pander too people below average, while the people above average end up with the exact same education as all the other average people. Dig?

It's kind of pointless really. People can leave high school still not knowing how to read, people are meant to decide what they're going to do for the rest of there lives before they're 20. It's just a monotonous waste of time for more or less everyone involved.
 
I'm not sure about the rest of America, but my High School was a fucking shlock. We had the same three Education levels as Malk mentioned.

I lived in a somewhat wealthy neighborhood. But it seemed that everyone that was under "Standard" was looked down apon. They were given the impression that there was no hope for them, and they were going to be sad, miserable and work blue collar jobs for the rest of there life. They also got the impression that they NEEDED to be accepted into a four year college, which is BS. I'm actually thinking that I should have settled for a community college first.

Most of the classes I took were on that level, and I also smoked alot of pot in high school. I never got above a C average. But I did take two Advanced Placement classes and got an above average score on my ACTs. Because of that alone that I got accepted into a few Universities.

If this is similar to what the rest of suburban schools, than yes the American Educational System is terribly flawed.
 
Interesting arguments. what I am thinking right now is: how many poor white american people are there, and more importantly can they be used or to put it otherwise manipulated by some politician with an extremist agenda (far right most likely)? If so why doesn't the government do something about it? This could be like a time bomb, ready to explode.
Sorry for that small derail Welsh, but for the last month or so the main subject of the social psychology class was, and still is, manipulation of both individuals and masses. Plus elections are coming up and the politicians are polishing their campaign speeches and promises.
But let's go back to the school issue. From what I have heard (alike Sander I might end up standing corrected) the standard in American schools are low, like close to rock bottom. And that is definitely wrong, in so many ways.
America considers itself to be a "superpower" just because it has a bunch of nuclear missiles which it can't use without being itself affected, if not by the retaliations from other countries, at least by the long term effects of the blasts. Ok, so America is a "superpower". That implies at least a healthy economy and some sound leadership. The healthy economy would imply that funding would not be a problem. From what you guys said I can only deduce that funding in certain domains of activity, like education, is a problem. On the other hand in domains, like the military, that does not seem to be a problem, hell if America can afford two consecutive wars then it has more than enough funds. So I am wondering why aren't there enough money for education? Now you are going to say that defending itself from the enemies of democracy is very important. Ok, it is important, but it is also important for a country, perhaps one of the most important things a government should ensure, to raise and educate it's children in the best way possible. And in that domain money should never be a problem! We are talking about the future of a civilization, it's ability to survive, and that survival is ensured by the kids, the seeds that we sow. Wich brings me to the matter of sound leadership, wich seems to be missing completely. Getting yourself in a war with a country is one thing, but ending up fighting its population, whose moral values and standards you fail to grasp, is plum crazy! To get back on topic I would like to say that I think that the American educational system is seriously screwed. I could easily ramble about this but I'll try to keep it brief.
The educational system in my country is equally fucked up, if not worse, but then again I live in a corrupt country where money and influence grant you impunity so that is if not justifiable, at least predictable. The thing that I don't understand about America is why a broad and substantial education is not a a major goal. Knowledge is a very important thing, it is one of the few things that can't be taken from you. (Except for the case in wich you get bumped on the head too many times and you end up having the intelligence of a salad). What I am getting at is this: why doesn't the government strive to educate the people, to make the true citizens, that should have the right to vote because they can make a decision based on sound facts, and because they can tell right from wrong and have a mind of their own instead of acting like a herd of sheep. But then again if you have a population made up of true citizens, instead of tax payers who are useful as long as they work their asses off, it would mean that you would have to have actual managing skills and make decisions that are good for the country, respect the people and so forth. A flock of sheep is easily controlled and manipulated.
Final question: Is the government ignorant enough to overlook the importance of education, ar are they encouraging this phenomenon so that they can benefit?
Discuss

As for the educational system in my country:
grades 1-4 , what we call general school, wich means reading, writing(first grade), romanian, math, romanian history, literature, geography, some notions of biology and the natural sciences, at a general level, also the first foreign language.
grades 5-8 romanian, a second foreign language, in addition to the first, algebra, geometry, history, geography, biology, anatomy, zoology, chemistry, physics, music, drawing, and social education.
grades 1-8 are mandatory, after finishing eighth grade you must take an exam that certifies that you have accumulated sufficient knowledge in the past 8 years of your life. Then if you wish to go on you can take another exam in order to get into high school.
9-12 high school: this is where things get more interesting. When you take the exam you also make a choice, are you going to be a humanist, or are you going to study more exact sciences (math, physics, chemistry, programming). The fact that you chose one profile does not mean that you won't study the other stiff, just that the emphasis will be on the ones you chose. So the education, at least in theory is still broad, although you begin to focus on a smaller number of subjects. This prepares you for going to an university, but mind you, at the end of the twelfth grade you have to take another major exam, and one of the mandatory subjects is one from the group opposite to the one you specialized in. Example: if you chose to study exact sciences you will have to take an exam that will gauge your knowledge regarding a humanist subject.
If one does not have the capacity, or the will to go to high school he can go to a trade school.
So this is it. Any questions?
The thing is teachers are poorly payed, and the schools are usually poorly equipped, and in many cases, even in the big cities, hygiene and heating are major problems. But as I said before this is kind of normal, considering how the whole country is being run. That is not an excuse. But those are the hard facts. It's getting late and the text is beginning to look fuzzy, so I'm going to turn in. Catch you later.
 
Just too let you know about the english system:

You start primary school when you are 4, finishing at 12. You do English, Maths, R. E, History, Geography, the basics of the 3 sciences and mabye Art. As I was leaving they also started doing I.T.

You start high school at 12 until 16. You do most of the subjects, like a language though when you're 14 you get too choose what subjects you do. After that you can go to college or something

This has just been my experience, it's probably different in every school.

c0ldst33ltrs4u said:
Sorry for that small derail Welsh, but for the last month or so the main subject of the social psychology class was, and still is, manipulation of both individuals and masses.

Has it occured to you that your social psychology teacher is manipulating you? Why go off on that huge rant about whatever?

My education has been pretty fucking boring. I'm part of the top 5% of students in the country, yet only found this out a few weeks ago. I could have been in college by now if the head of my year had let me know. Ah well, just 5 years of being surrounded by fucking idiots and not doing anything.
 
In Australia our education system is fairly poor as well. Until year eleven we do practically no work. We are forced to waste time with Aboriginal and womens' rights in history. World War Two gets 2 days of lessons while the disastrous Gallipoli campaign is studied for 2 weeks. Geography is overconcerned with ecology and although they try to get people to care, I am still the only student in my school who tries to recycle there. My year group can hardly spell and was never taught grammar because it was fashionable to 'teach English by experience', which failed miserably for most people. This is because most teenagers have absolutely no interest in reading or doing anything even slightly intellectual without coercion. Language is a complete waste of time at such a low level (Was is das, Icht bin nicht sprechen de Deutch so gut?). The result of this are that we are ignorant if we don't have the right family background. I learn infinitely more (we can use the superlative) from television and my parents than from school. In year 11-12, our final years, we finally start doing some work. This is quite a shock and as a result, many people drop out of school.

Even in the senior years BS is still rife. In English we study twice as many films as we do books. We have to explain 'meaning' in things such as "that piece of crap in the picture represents the decadent and decaying state of human thought and appeals to the sense of smell to reinforce the pervading nature of stagnation and disgust." "No it doesn't, its just a picture of a piece of crap". I am not doing particularly well in English because I resist the overwhelming BS but unfortunately I may have to surrender to the system and just write what they want for the sake of marks. In extension English I am studying the conventions of crime fiction and the whodunit, forget about real literature. Modern History is mostly Hitler and later, the Cold War (modern's the best subject!). Because people are not doing the sciences they cut 20% off the syllabus every ten years and include more humanities in them such as, "describe the life and work of Verner von Braun" for physics (yay for me because I do half humanities and half science). Ancient history was a doddle so I transferred to extension History which is bloody university level but although the board of education sees all courses as equal, luckily the universities don't so if I can do well in these courses I should easily get into science or science/arts at uni. Maths is just a little bit below standard and gives three times as much homework as everything else put together (it took me a year to escape from extension maths).

I go to the only non-selective (damn maths) state high school in the eastern suburbs. Rose Bay Secondary college. The government sold off all the other campuses to developers and the private schools to raise revenue and my school is being upgraded to try to te get students to go there. 90% of the people who live near the school go to private shools, and dislike the predominantly lower class plebs who dare to go to school in their area. The private get more funding than the public so they attract better teachers and can have better discipline, creating a vicious circle which sucks the students out of the public system. However, they have the same crap syllabus as everyone else so ha.

The teachers constantly struggle for better pay and more funding and hate the fact that the private schools, which already charge fees get allot of government funding.
 
There are certainly problems with the American school system--but I think they are primarily administrative. (surprise!!) I don't think more money is the answer. My hometown is just north of Baltimore, MD and we've been pouring money into the Baltimore city school system for years. Yeah, that's right--my property taxes are used to fund my schools AS WELL AS city schools.
The city schools are $58 millions dollars in debt right now; in fact, they just laid off 800 teachers, because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore.
The city spends an average of $11000 per student per year; my county spends about $5000, but we consistently perform much better.
Why is that?
Because the superintendant of Baltimore schools had a chauffeur that was paid $100,000 a year. Because they're firing teachers when they should be firing administrators (did you know there's something like 5 'administrators' for every square mile in the school district? What do they do?)
Corruption is a large problem in our schools--and the teachers unions propagate low standards. The best of the best should be teachers--college has made me realize what a difference intelligent teachers make! Young students don't respect their teachers; add that to the fact that salaries are crappy, and you'll have the beginning of why no-one wants to be a teacher in America.
The No Child Left Behind Act was a nice thought, but they're implementing it all wrong. Standards should be imposed from the bottom up--you can't expect kids to pass a test when they haven't been taught the material.
On the affirmative action note: I agree with Ancient Oldie--affirmative action should be economically based.
 
One small note:
American schools are sub-standard, at least when compared to Dutch schools. People who have had a high-school education for part of their high-school experience and come to the Netherlands afterwards, always, invariably say that the level of education is much much lower there. Heh.
 
Yeah, well you know what? YOUR Sub-Standard.

But seriously, I think the reason for American's schools to be "sub-standard" is because American's in general don't value education as much as other cultures. Which is why we are still awed by the way asian students are so good at math.

This is also why a lot of schools have trouble with funding. The governemnt would rather build more cruise missiles, and send anti-drug propagandists to our schools than actually fund any schools. The government doesn't really care how educated we are, just as long as we all think alike. This is my cynical conspiracy theorist demon talking, but I think there is some truth to that thought.

Not to mention, different areas of the US have better schools. Des Moines, Iowa, for example, is known to have very good schools.
 
Also take into account everyone has the right to education in America, so people can come over and enter the school systems. America is very diverse so you have to cover all the bases like language and customs and all the other bs. Pretty much why they want to take the pledge out of schools.
 
POOPERSCOOPER said:
Also take into account everyone has the right to education in America, so people can come over and enter the school systems.

As opposed to?

POOPERSCOOPER said:
America is very diverse so you have to cover all the bases like language and customs and all the other bs.

As opposed to?
 
in England we don't need to spend a few lessons about customs, the teachers just ignore it lololol

yeah, america sure is a wacky place. So much wheel-chair access you could sk8 all over da place!
 
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