We Germans have this expression which was made for such cases :
Geh mit Gott, aber geh!
It's used to indicate that a loss is welcome.
Boris Johnson : To save democracy we had to destroy it.
Boris what ya doing?
- Thread starter Crni Vuk
- Start date
We Germans have this expression which was made for such cases :
Geh mit Gott, aber geh!
It's used to indicate that a loss is welcome.
Boris Johnson : To save democracy we had to destroy it.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
We Germans have this expression which was made for such cases :
Geh mit Gott, aber geh!
It's used to indicate that a loss is welcome.
Boris Johnson : To save democracy we had to destroy it.
Hmmm it seems to me you must be reading different stuff than me on this. To me it looks like Boris is saving democracy from itself. Why the fuck would all those MP's just decide to go fuck the will of the voters we will do want parliament wants.
Who runs a democracy? The parliament or the people Crni? Who runs a democracy?
Remember Boris has seen a 10% rise in his parties popularity.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Because they voted wrong? Look I will admit I don't know a damn thing about brexit but that whole thing smelt like it was just thrown out there by people who had no Idea people would actually get the vote passed. it was just supposed to be some token platform to go oh we tried but it didn't pass oh well, better work within the system I 'spouse, they didn't have a clue people would give a shit for a change.
Ok. Let us consider this for a moment and get a few things straight if we already talk about the democracy here.
First things first. The Parliament has been elected by the britisch people and is a sovereign entity as a representative democracy. And Johnson says he is not closing the parliament due to Brexit. Who's believing that? No one. Not even members of his own party. Yes this whole thing is a shit show right now also in the parliament. But to be honest, getting the Brexit trough by a prime Minister who was elected by maybe 44.000 people while closing down the parliament is hardly going to resolve the situation in a way where Britain as a country will come down on top. That's simply delusional. We're not talking about the Empire here. This will cause a massive unrest and it will set a precedence. And above all no Parliament is actually bound on carrying out a referendum. That's why they are sovereign.
Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
Second as already mentioned, Boris Johnson was NOT elected by the majority of the British people for a hard Brexit and what ever if he carries out the will of the British people is a very debatable point here. Are the Tories all people now? Since when? Yes a majority of I think 51% voted for, what is now known as Brexit now, to leave the EU. A very small margin in favour of it, remember 49% voted to remain. Are their voices not important? However no citizen voted for a specific policy here nor was any citizen given the choice to leave the EU with or without a hard Brexit. Most polls I know say that a majorty of the British people does not want a hard Brexit. So who is now right? Who is carrying out the "will" of the people here? Johnson? The Parliament? Let us also not forget this is a fucked up situation which was caused by David Cameron who pushed for a referendum probably with the intention to satisfy some of the fringe movements in the Tories to gain voters from Ukip and the Leave EU groups while expecting a majority to vote for remain in the end. But that is just speculation on my part. But it makes sense to me. And as we know by now a large part of the leave EU campaign was at the very least inaccurate. The NHS isn't going to get 300 Million pounds or what ever when the UK leaves the EU. Even Nigel Farage said that much. I am pretty certain the British people did NOT vote for what we're seeing now.
Are you also aware about the possibility of the UK breaking apart? With Scotland eventually voting to exit the UK and become a EU member? Now I am not saying if this a good choice or not as I really don't know. But the possibility is there. So all the people from Ukip and the few Tories talking about saving Democracy from the claws of the EU and keeping the Unity of Britain might be in the end the ones that actually shattered it.
I find this somewhat ironic if also tragic. But there are still people which don't see the irony here.
First things first. The Parliament has been elected by the britisch people and is a sovereign entity as a representative democracy. And Johnson says he is not closing the parliament due to Brexit. Who's believing that? No one. Not even members of his own party. Yes this whole thing is a shit show right now also in the parliament. But to be honest, getting the Brexit trough by a prime Minister who was elected by maybe 44.000 people while closing down the parliament is hardly going to resolve the situation in a way where Britain as a country will come down on top. That's simply delusional. We're not talking about the Empire here. This will cause a massive unrest and it will set a precedence. And above all no Parliament is actually bound on carrying out a referendum. That's why they are sovereign.
Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/
Second as already mentioned, Boris Johnson was NOT elected by the majority of the British people for a hard Brexit and what ever if he carries out the will of the British people is a very debatable point here. Are the Tories all people now? Since when? Yes a majority of I think 51% voted for, what is now known as Brexit now, to leave the EU. A very small margin in favour of it, remember 49% voted to remain. Are their voices not important? However no citizen voted for a specific policy here nor was any citizen given the choice to leave the EU with or without a hard Brexit. Most polls I know say that a majorty of the British people does not want a hard Brexit. So who is now right? Who is carrying out the "will" of the people here? Johnson? The Parliament? Let us also not forget this is a fucked up situation which was caused by David Cameron who pushed for a referendum probably with the intention to satisfy some of the fringe movements in the Tories to gain voters from Ukip and the Leave EU groups while expecting a majority to vote for remain in the end. But that is just speculation on my part. But it makes sense to me. And as we know by now a large part of the leave EU campaign was at the very least inaccurate. The NHS isn't going to get 300 Million pounds or what ever when the UK leaves the EU. Even Nigel Farage said that much. I am pretty certain the British people did NOT vote for what we're seeing now.
Are you also aware about the possibility of the UK breaking apart? With Scotland eventually voting to exit the UK and become a EU member? Now I am not saying if this a good choice or not as I really don't know. But the possibility is there. So all the people from Ukip and the few Tories talking about saving Democracy from the claws of the EU and keeping the Unity of Britain might be in the end the ones that actually shattered it.
I find this somewhat ironic if also tragic. But there are still people which don't see the irony here.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
Because they voted wrong? Look I will admit I don't know a damn thing about brexit but that whole thing smelt like it was just thrown out there by people who had no Idea people would actually get the vote passed. it was just supposed to be some token platform to go oh we tried but it didn't pass oh well, better work within the system I 'spouse, they didn't have a clue people would give a shit for a change.
Oh I fully agree that's how it started, Hell they have lost 3 governments now due to it. But in the end the most popular single option in the UK is still leave. In the EU elections the Brexit party kicked some ass, The Brexit party itself has double digit popularity in the national poles, and the Tories who are leading Brexit and the party of the current PM is hands down the most popular. It boils down to leaving is still the most popular option. I wonder why the EU just does not settle it and go you have 3 options, and no more extensions, just make up your fucking mind. The British MP's themselves are the ones who seem to clearly want to fuck this up, its elected officials not wanting to do what the electorate want.
I can't say if this is accurate for now but it seems a new referendum would be probably different to the first one. It's an old poll but well.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-polls-vote-remain-latest-john-curtice/
Also Johnson is not that far ahead in popularity compared to Theresa May.
- Remain leads by around 53% to 47% on average in polls
- People like the idea of a 'public vote' - but not a second referendum
- Minds are changing slowly, but not in large numbers
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-polls-vote-remain-latest-john-curtice/
Also Johnson is not that far ahead in popularity compared to Theresa May.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
I see you do not understand the whole Westminster system, we have it in Canada too. Right now you have MP's that are both beholden to there party and to the people who voted for them neglecting the duties to both. They are holding out not to remain but in some inane belief that the EU will still renegotiate a deal that they have explicitly stated multiple times that the deal, is the deal, is the deal. That deal was created with the knowledge that Britian will not hard exit removing a big negotiating tool for the Brits (idiots...), I am sure even Boris does not want a hard exit, they just don't want to get bent over and anally raped by the EU's german overlords (yeah take that Crni heh heh heh). They want to renegotiated with all the options on the table.
Also 5 months old....
here is something better
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...olls-tories-brexit-party-labour-snap-election
TheGM
The voice of reason
Being petulant? Setting a precedent? Kinda hard to bully members when the ground work is laid for them to leave. Hell didn't lots of members join the EU for trade reasons and got saddled with immigration quotas?
Wouldn't be the government if that wasn't the case.
And we have in Germany many similar institutions that do a similar job we just call it differently.
All I am saying is the parliament is not bound on the results of the Referendum. No Parliament is in a representative democracy. What ever else happens outside of it right now is simply politics. So I am not sure what you're trying to say here. The Parliament is a sovereign body. What the members of this parliament do with this is a whole different story.
I don't see anything here that really contradicts what I just said :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system
Maybe people should not give their votes to fringe groups and extremists. Then you will not see something like Brexit and the whole shit around it happening. And no I am not only talking about "conservatives" here.
So they are the cat. They don't want out of the EU but they also don't want in the EU ... and people wonder why the Rest of Europe thinks the brits are crazy. Yes yes the Eu is a dictatorship bla bla bla. Who's believing this? No one with a sane mind. And while Germany has a lot of leverage in EU politics so do other nations. Like France, Italy, Austria, basically everyone who's a member!
Everyone loves to blame the EU for everything but no one wants to leave no even those that actually try it ... it just shows how everyone knows the importance of the EU and what good it does but it simply serves as a perfect scape goat every shit that happens in the countries. But they always forget the EU can only be as good and efficient and democratic like the member states. You're a Canadian, do you think Quebec would be better off on it's own without the Torontians breathing down their necks? You're an intelligent lad. Don't fall for this "Eu is oppressing us" rhetoric.
BigGuyCIA
Yer fond of me Lobster!
I chuckled for quite a bit.
MutantScalper
Dogmeat
This is turning into a kind of social turmoil/civil unrest in UK. Similar to the one going on in Trump's USA.
If UK leaves the biggest single issue will be organizing defence for EU/Europe, if UK wants to be so dickish that it won't take part in the defence anymore. Then again US, including Trump, seem to favor UK staying in EU, and Brexit won't mean the end of NATO or something like that.
The whole Brexit-party thing, and UKIP/EDL/etc., are funded by some big money. Why? Because they want to turn UK into a tax haven for the super rich, EU keeps that from happening. So Gonzo, you want real democracy? How about getting big corporate money out of politics. You must also be real happy with the Queen being the ultimate leader of your colonial nation.
If UK leaves the biggest single issue will be organizing defence for EU/Europe, if UK wants to be so dickish that it won't take part in the defence anymore. Then again US, including Trump, seem to favor UK staying in EU, and Brexit won't mean the end of NATO or something like that.
The whole Brexit-party thing, and UKIP/EDL/etc., are funded by some big money. Why? Because they want to turn UK into a tax haven for the super rich, EU keeps that from happening. So Gonzo, you want real democracy? How about getting big corporate money out of politics. You must also be real happy with the Queen being the ultimate leader of your colonial nation.
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valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I think that earlier direct violation of article 125 from treaty of Lisbon caused bigger outrage in UK than raised quotas in Dublin regulations. According to article 125 all EU members are responsible for their own debts, so when EU removed the veto rights and changed voting rules to pass bailout plan for Greece against the will of couple of EU members in order to save French and German banks owning majority of Greek debts, the governments who didn't own Greek debts felt fucked really hard. Bigger economies such as UK spend tens of billions eurs on this.
GonZo_626
Well Shit!
I agree on the corporate money, in fact I don't think anybody should be allowed to contribute more than $10 to a political party. In Canada we brought in laws limiting the amount individuals and corporations can contribute. The funny thing is our Conservative party still racks in the most money by far in fact they brought in more money in the last quarter then all the other 4 parties combined. Guess a lot of lefties just don't put there money where there mouth is.
As for the Queen, I have no real problem with her, she is a figure head who the second uses any power she has, she will lose it, and the UK has zero control over us as a "colony".
D
Deleted member 98605
Guest
Why such a drastic decision hinged on 2% is beyond me. If it wasn't 66-33 it should had been tossed. It's the same view I have on Catalunya: if you get an overwhelming majority, fine. But these things can't hinge on a simple 'we got two more dudes than ya fuck off'. Isn't that one of the fears of mob-rule democracy? We got a smidgen more guys than you so you, even if you just have two guys less, have to suffer whatever we do.
TheGM
The voice of reason
Most of the time it is their parent's money. not to mention stuff like when Bernie lost the primaries and people were asking for refunds on campaign donations. Like the dude I um wanted to win like lost and can I have my money back?
Not to jump into a political debate, but parliament and senates are what we call “representatives”; we elect them, yes, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we can’t hold them accountable. Quite the opposite; it’s their job to appease the masses. On thé flip side, they don’t HAVE to listen to voters, but if they want a re-election it’s usually a bad idea to tell constituents to fuck themselves.
As for people “voting wrong”, unless genocide is involved, there usually is no objective “right” or “wrong” unless you wanna really get into the ethics of this kind of shit.
As for people “voting wrong”, unless genocide is involved, there usually is no objective “right” or “wrong” unless you wanna really get into the ethics of this kind of shit.
Yes, in a democracy people vote for the candy man not the dentist. He knows how to appease the masses.
Exactly, but that’s the nature of the beast. It’s why our representatives are given leeway to go against voter opinion and use their own judgement. All I’m saying is that if they do so egregiously, it’s our right to hold them accountable.
So at the moment, the whole thing is a massive clusterfuck and I couldn't find it any funnier.
First of all, a bit of background.
Boris became mayor of London in 2008. Considering I'm from London, I can safely say his 8 years in office, he did nothing.
All of his changes have been a failure. Pretty much all the good stuff that happened during his tenure as mayor were from Ken Livingstone, the previous Mayor before him
Moving onto 2010, the coalition is formed between Conservatives and Lib Dems. While this was a shitty time in politics, it wasn't as bad. Lib Dems would shoot down a lot of the Conservatives right wing ideas, however education was starting to get a bit more fucked up around this time.
I should note that both my parents at the time were working In education, with my Dad being a deputy head teacher. Basically from them, I found out how things were changing and that it was starting to be a bit too... Target based.
Jump forward to 2015, election season, Conservatives win. Around this time, Nigel Farage was increasing in popularity.
Basically, 2015 was when things starting going into the shitter, austerity increased, number of food banks increased and the UK press was becoming more... Hostile.
Get to September 2015, as a joke, Corbyn is nominated as Labour leader. I should also state that from 1997-2010, Labour moved to the right while 2010-2015, they were becoming more left under Miliband. Sadly, he wasn't a very strong leader.
Now, the 2015 election is the important one, for it's when Conservatives promised a referendum on leaving the EU.
Come 2016, this promise came into fruition.
Now I should note, historically, leaving the EU has always been a more left wing thing. So a right wing party wanting to leave raises some eyebrows.
It helps to know that a couple of the reasons why certain conservatives wanted to leave where first, they have been gutting the NHS I'm hopes of changing it to an American style insurance (if anyone here says that's better, go fuck yourself), and also, and this is one that isn't brought up that much, but they want to get rid of the human rights act and replace it with something else. This means this would give them free reign on what they can change.
Now our boy Boris is back, after stepping down as Mayor, he had his eyes set on being Prime Minister. But first he had to prove he could be a good leader. What else is there than to lead the pro Brexit movement?
Now I should also state, the NHS is very dear to us. So to imply more money would go to the NHS after we leave the EU was... Cuntish.
Britain votes to leave (52-48, not a large majority, but I'll get back to that), and... Basically everyone hates Boris now.
Cameron steps down as PM, enter Theresa May.
May from the get go was weak as shit. And that weakness accumulated into the 2017 election... Where she basically shit in Corbyn for focusing on the election.
She won... But she lost her majority and ended up making a deal with the DUP (which is very ironic considering the papers at the time).
Now up until her leaving, there's not a lot of important stuff happening. The next two years are Parilment having a panic attack and the entrance of Jacob Reese-Mogg (this guy is a grade a cunt, you have to speak to him a certain way and he just has this very snoobish attitude about him. Luckily people hate him enough to meme him sleeping in the House of Commons).
So after two years of nothing really happening, Boris returns. He jumps back on as being PM and well... That's where we get to where we are today.
So, from looking at all of that, Boris basically wants to get a no deal, he is essentially a self serving Tory who has been proven to be a liar and dangerous.
Brexit has given rise to the number of hate crimes, and many people believing that what Boris is doing is democratic.
What Boris tried to do was completely undemocratic and contradictory to the people who voted Brexit.
What people don't understand is that us voting isn't how our democracy works. It's parlimentary meaning it's representative.
The vote being split 48-52 means that if this was completely democratic, it would be a soft Brexit. People keep saying Leave won but then I ask... What about the other 48% of people. That's still a lot of people you're denying there, nearly half the country's population. Even with that, Scotland and Ireland voted for a majority of remaining... And didn't Scotland have a vote just a few years back to see if it wanted to stay in the UK? That was a vote this kind of situation should have been addressed.
Now let's get into the fun part.
Boris Johnson has spent his entire career wanting to be prime minister, however, within 5 days in office, he has lost his majority, lost his own brother and has just given more power to the opposition.
Simply put, he is a prime minister who cannot run his own country.
And after all the mess that's been made, he has managed to pull off the impossible and make Theresa May look strong in comparison.
First of all, a bit of background.
Boris became mayor of London in 2008. Considering I'm from London, I can safely say his 8 years in office, he did nothing.
All of his changes have been a failure. Pretty much all the good stuff that happened during his tenure as mayor were from Ken Livingstone, the previous Mayor before him
Moving onto 2010, the coalition is formed between Conservatives and Lib Dems. While this was a shitty time in politics, it wasn't as bad. Lib Dems would shoot down a lot of the Conservatives right wing ideas, however education was starting to get a bit more fucked up around this time.
I should note that both my parents at the time were working In education, with my Dad being a deputy head teacher. Basically from them, I found out how things were changing and that it was starting to be a bit too... Target based.
Jump forward to 2015, election season, Conservatives win. Around this time, Nigel Farage was increasing in popularity.
Basically, 2015 was when things starting going into the shitter, austerity increased, number of food banks increased and the UK press was becoming more... Hostile.
Get to September 2015, as a joke, Corbyn is nominated as Labour leader. I should also state that from 1997-2010, Labour moved to the right while 2010-2015, they were becoming more left under Miliband. Sadly, he wasn't a very strong leader.
Now, the 2015 election is the important one, for it's when Conservatives promised a referendum on leaving the EU.
Come 2016, this promise came into fruition.
Now I should note, historically, leaving the EU has always been a more left wing thing. So a right wing party wanting to leave raises some eyebrows.
It helps to know that a couple of the reasons why certain conservatives wanted to leave where first, they have been gutting the NHS I'm hopes of changing it to an American style insurance (if anyone here says that's better, go fuck yourself), and also, and this is one that isn't brought up that much, but they want to get rid of the human rights act and replace it with something else. This means this would give them free reign on what they can change.
Now our boy Boris is back, after stepping down as Mayor, he had his eyes set on being Prime Minister. But first he had to prove he could be a good leader. What else is there than to lead the pro Brexit movement?
Now I should also state, the NHS is very dear to us. So to imply more money would go to the NHS after we leave the EU was... Cuntish.
Britain votes to leave (52-48, not a large majority, but I'll get back to that), and... Basically everyone hates Boris now.
Cameron steps down as PM, enter Theresa May.
May from the get go was weak as shit. And that weakness accumulated into the 2017 election... Where she basically shit in Corbyn for focusing on the election.
She won... But she lost her majority and ended up making a deal with the DUP (which is very ironic considering the papers at the time).
Now up until her leaving, there's not a lot of important stuff happening. The next two years are Parilment having a panic attack and the entrance of Jacob Reese-Mogg (this guy is a grade a cunt, you have to speak to him a certain way and he just has this very snoobish attitude about him. Luckily people hate him enough to meme him sleeping in the House of Commons).
So after two years of nothing really happening, Boris returns. He jumps back on as being PM and well... That's where we get to where we are today.
So, from looking at all of that, Boris basically wants to get a no deal, he is essentially a self serving Tory who has been proven to be a liar and dangerous.
Brexit has given rise to the number of hate crimes, and many people believing that what Boris is doing is democratic.
What Boris tried to do was completely undemocratic and contradictory to the people who voted Brexit.
What people don't understand is that us voting isn't how our democracy works. It's parlimentary meaning it's representative.
The vote being split 48-52 means that if this was completely democratic, it would be a soft Brexit. People keep saying Leave won but then I ask... What about the other 48% of people. That's still a lot of people you're denying there, nearly half the country's population. Even with that, Scotland and Ireland voted for a majority of remaining... And didn't Scotland have a vote just a few years back to see if it wanted to stay in the UK? That was a vote this kind of situation should have been addressed.
Now let's get into the fun part.
Boris Johnson has spent his entire career wanting to be prime minister, however, within 5 days in office, he has lost his majority, lost his own brother and has just given more power to the opposition.
Simply put, he is a prime minister who cannot run his own country.
And after all the mess that's been made, he has managed to pull off the impossible and make Theresa May look strong in comparison.
So like this :