China goes Fuedal on Buddhists

DarkCorp said:
Lastly, I was reading a Time article on Putin. It seems that although the state is heavy handed, sometimes these measures are necessary to show the government means business. Currently, Russia is estimated to be well on its way to stabilization and is considered closer to its old superpower status.

Before Putin, local governors, often with ties to the maffia, could run their oblasts as they liked. No central control whatsoever. The cities were owned by the maffia. Hell, at the end of Jeltsin's ride the government was owned by maffia men, like Khodorkovsky.

Say what you want about Putin, but he was the right man for the job, to everyone's surprise. The worrying thing is that he won't piss off now.
 
DarkCorp, doest the fact that countires were conquered in the past, it's inhabitants killed or enslaved means that people should stand by and watch how Tibetans are getting pulled into the communistic swamp of China? Trust me, you don't want your country to be overrun by communists. Even if China does progress, it's people don't benefit from it. Hell, the richer the China gets, the poorer it's people get, because it means that workers are getting paid even less than before. Tell me, why everyone have their production in China? Because of the sunsets?
 
Darkcorp- Of course... Tibet is just waiting to breed terrorists like it did for thousands of year.... yeah.

Oh my gosh! Hypocrisy! Everyone has blood on their hands so we shouldn't do anything!

Dude, fine- if you want to go through life feeling guilty about the sins of the world, than feel free to sit with your thumb up your ass, but don't bitch about being impotent when you managed to emasculate yourself.

What we are seeing-
China blacks out news from Tibet unless it can control it. It issues an an ultimatum and sends in armored vehichles. Then it rounds up the people and disappears them into prisons.

Meanwhile France is wrestling with the idea of a boycott while the sports ministers say it would be unfair to the athletes

Looks like China will might get a free ride on this. It is, afterall, easier to look away.

Bullshit.

About two decades ago the Chinese ran tanks over university students protesting in Beijing. Now its going to incarcerate Tibetans and disappear them in their prisons. Then the CHinese Communist Party its going to just keep doing what it usually does destroying a subject culture, repressing dissent, controlling the media, allowing a small part of its population to grow rich while the rest starve, and exploit our dependency on it for its exports.

As for China and the world's poverty and the rest of the developing world.

According to the World Development Indicators 2006 -

The number of people living on less that $1 a day-

2002 1987

China 29% 14%

East Asia 12% 28%
and Pacific

Latin America 11% 13%
And Caribbean

South Asia 31% 45%

Sub-Saharan 44% 47%
Africa

Total World 19% 28%


Don't tell me China is not exceptional. How is it when the rest of the world is enjoying much less economic growth yet can reduce poverty, the Chinese can still create that much more poverty in the space of 5 years. The country has doubled the size of its population living on less than $365 a year.

And this is the same country that keeps its currency inflated to promote its exports. The Europeans are especially fucked with this because your currency is inflated.

Why does China do this- because it depends on its exports for its economic survival because if the economy took a downturn justification for the Chinese Communist Party, the basis for its hegemony over Chinese society, would collapse.

So why do we allow China to remain in the WTO? Why do we put up with this? Why not charge an added tax on currency transactions with the Yuen. If the Chinese can't keep their currency honest, why should we?

If you're going to compare China today with China in 1965 than you might as well compare North Korea and South Korea. But why not compare China with developing countries.

China has the 4th largest GDP in the world, just below Germany and just ahead of the UK. Yet it ranks 82nd by GDP per capital (PPP) and 81 by HDI. Now 81 by HDI means that the quality of life is a bit better than Turkey but worse than Thailand. We demand those countries that play in the international trade game to play fair.
 
Again don't get the idea that I support China. I just want to be objective as possible.

You have to admit from Chinas standpoint, a free Tibet is a security risk, thats all. Just like the United States would not tolerate the seccession of its own territories.

Second in a way I agree with BN on this issue.

Do you see the Native Americans in a full on riot attacking innocent white store owners that had nothing to do with the expansionist policies of a burgeoning America? What about Martin Luther King and his policy of non-violence even in the face of brutal treatment at the hands of white racists? I am american chinese but I didn't remember the chinese immigrants in america going apeshit because their civil rights were abused in the past.

Lastly, you rage on China about Tianneman but not about the national guard opening fire on students on a certain american campus. You bring up the abuse of human rights in china but mentioned nothing about how the robber barons abused human rights in developing america. You bring up how china shoots its own protestors but say nothing about the pinkerton agents that did the same in america. The list could go on and on.

Keep in mind that I am comparing both a developing america to a developing china so it is a fair comparison.

All I am saying is shit happens man. This is a competitive world and in a competitive world not everyone can be the boss. You got two people on a ladder, one of them is going to get stepped on while the other climbs past to the top.

PS: Whats up with the insult? There is a difference between holding your own in a fist fight and pulling a gun on a SWAT team.
 
Ravager69 said:
DarkCorp, doest the fact that countires were conquered in the past, it's inhabitants killed or enslaved means that people should stand by and watch how Tibetans are getting pulled into the communistic swamp of China? Trust me, you don't want your country to be overrun by communists. Even if China does progress, it's people don't benefit from it. Hell, the richer the China gets, the poorer it's people get, because it means that workers are getting paid even less than before. Tell me, why everyone have their production in China? Because of the sunsets?

Oh I do not want China to be strong believe me. Thats why I am happy we have staging points for a conventional military strike on China from Japan and Taiwan while China has shit.

I also agree that I know the failures of communism all too well. But China is truly taking steps in reform. Sure its not immediate like what the USSR did but the country also didn't almost collapse on itself either.

Look, China is no USSR anyways. Your talking about a country that has been in the shitole for god knows how long. I mean this country has been killing itself for about a hundred years or so while getting raped in the ass all the while. The USSR managed its growth by invading and prostituting its many satellite nations. China as far as I know with the exception of Tibet, has not made any gains through military conquest. I think the progress that the country has made so far considering the hardships its faced in the past that not even the United States had to face makes it quite remarkable.
 
Darkcorp-
Are you going to live in the past or today? Are you going to let the sins of the past prevent you from acting today to make sure such sins don't happen.

If you are to drown in guilt and decide that its better not to act because to do so would be hypocrisy given past crimes- than are you not also guilty of the repetition of those sins?

Pinkertons? Robber barons? No, I don't like that American expansion led to the genocide of the Indians simply because it was more expediant to wipe them out than negotiate with them. I, a Catholic, have a healthy respect for the virtues of guilt- even for things that I didn't do.

But the virtue of guilt is, I think, not an excuse to be impotent in the face of further sins. Rather, one should learn from those sins and grow.

I agree, a free Tibet is a security risk. Honestly, I don't see a free Tibet as possible. A more autonomous Tibet that secures China's west, yes- I can see that. I don't see the repression of an indigenous and generally insular culture as necessary. Sorry, but I don't think the world is suffering from a plague of Tibetan Buddhist terrorists. That the Tibetans are pissed off and that they are articulating that rage to China is, I suspect, a consequence of China's policies.

If we can stop a massacre of Tibetans by sending a warning to China (by boycotting the Olympics) should we? Absolutely.
 
welsh said:
If we can stop a massacre of Tibetans by sending a warning to China (by boycotting the Olympics) should we? Absolutely.

And here, again, is my problem.

On the one hand, we can't.

On the other hand, it annoys me to no end that we're looking at a situation here where we don't really know what's going on but suddenly everyone jumps up and starts crying about something that's been going on forever anyway. Meanwhile, a lot worse things have been happening in China than this either through government malice or laziness yet this is what we get upset about.

We don't really actually know what's going on, yet you're pro some kind of uninformed reaction based on emotion.

What was the last international policy decision based purely on emotion? Some five years ago? How did that work out, again?

See, that's why I'm reacting so annoyed. People are getting their panties in a bunch about what's really a fringe issues in a country where a lot worse things are going on and encouraging their government to make ill-thought decisions. Thankfully, despite democracy, government leaders appear to have better heads on their shoulders for now.

Just look at yourself, man, you're talking about a massacre of the Tibetans? Based on what? Your gut feeling? Your preconceptions of the Tibetans as goody-two-shoes and the Han as evil overlords? Because not even the Tibetan propaganda states it's a "massacre".

That you want to believe it's so is great for you, but please don't ask international policy to be based on that kind of thinking.
 
Brother None said:
welsh said:
If we can stop a massacre of Tibetans by sending a warning to China (by boycotting the Olympics) should we? Absolutely.

And here, again, is my problem.

On the one hand, we can't.

Can't what? Communicate displeasure at this abuse of human rights? Send a signal to the PRC that if they can't behave like a civilized nation than we can't play games with them?

How is that so hard?

On the other hand, it annoys me to no end that we're looking at a situation here where we don't really know what's going on but suddenly everyone jumps up and starts crying about something that's been going on forever anyway. Meanwhile, a lot worse things have been happening in China than this either through government malice or laziness yet this is what we get upset about.

If you are talking about the farmers and the workers and the prisoners and everyone else that's fucked by the Chinese, you're right. Its unfortunate that they don't have the organization or can achieve the collective action that Tibetans can.

That's not a justification for abandoning the Tibetans. And furthermore, by coming to the defense of the Tibetans, maybe you give the others a chance to free themselves from a bit of repression.

Because the Chinese aren't doing this just to the Tibetans, but they are doing this to every other group that might challenge their hegemony.

That's what this is about- the CCP wants total hegemony in China. They're not getting it. And when a ruling class doesn't get it peacefully, it will do so with repression.

SO you are willing to let the Tibetans go, because the others are being repressed and no one cares. Maybe people don't care because the other groups don't have a Dalai Lama that can organize them, or maybe they lack a collective identity or the ability to market their cause abroad. Maybe they can't because the Chinese can repress them.

29% of the population at less than $1 a day- that's a lot of Chinese and I think there's a fair share of them who are feeling repressed.

We don't really actually know what's going on, yet you're pro some kind of uninformed reaction based on emotion.

What do you need to know.
The Tibetans have been suffering from repression from China for years. That they are seeing their lands taken away as the Chinese flood Tibet with Han. They are losing rights and their leaders are marginalized, and when they protest they get repressed.

They got violent, the Chinese repressed and the world woke up from its lethargy and is being pushed to act.

What is there to know now that we didn't know before. Who started it? Please. It started because the Tibetans are pissed off and they have a right to.

And worst case scenario- the Tibetans organized this to get the Chinese out- only makes them as morally culpable as Ghandi organizing the salt march or Martin Luther King organizing a march on Montgomery Alabama.

Even peaceful movements sometimes require blood to be spilled or at least risked.

When the Filipinos protested against Marcos, they knew the army could be turned on them. When the students protested in INdonesia against Suharto, they knew the Indonesian army could be turned on them. When the Chinese students protested in Bejing in '89, they damn well knew that the army could attack.

Sometimes they get run over by tanks, sometimes they win.
The question is, will the West sit back and let the Tibetans get run over without protest.

What was the last international policy decision based purely on emotion? Some five years ago? How did that work out, again?

You're overstating that case as well. People have been pissed off about Chinese Tibet policies for years. This protest has been happening at least for a year. The riots might have caused people to wake up.

Is this emotional or moral?
Is it emotional- maybe, but so what? Human beings are emotional creatures and usually that reminds us of what our values are.

Is it moral? Shouldn't our morality determine what our foreign policy should be?

My morality- I see China as a nationalistic, socialist state run by a dominant and small party of elites supported by a military. In otherwords, its a facist state. Is it moral to permit them to run over the Tibetans to roll over them? No.

But I'll go further. What I would love is an economic shock to China that sends their economy into free fall, leads to social unrest and overthrows the CCP and replaces it with a more popularly supportable and publically accountable government with a more responsible economic policy that acknowledges that if it is to be a player in the world economy, than it has to comply by the rules.

Is that moral? I don't know. But I don't see propping up China while its policies hurt its own people as well as people around the world as a moral policy.

See, that's why I'm reacting so annoyed. People are getting their panties in a bunch about what's really a fringe issues in a country where a lot worse things are going on and encouraging their government to make ill-thought decisions. Thankfully, despite democracy, government leaders appear to have better heads on their shoulders for now.

Or perhaps the governments are too willing to concede to China because the Chinese are such a big economy and their afraid that rocking the boat, when the world's economy seems shaky, is dangerous.

And maybe it is.
But the thing is that a lot of the foreign investment that goes to China does so because of tax breaks. That's it. Companies save on taxes by going to China.

Most of the shit they make in China could be made in other parts of the world.

FDI that goes to China has basically been denied to the rest of the world.

And, as my numbers above point out, the rest of the world has done a better job in providing a better life to its people than China.

So as for as keeping China alive and well.

Fuck China.

Just look at yourself, man, you're talking about a massacre of the Tibetans? Based on what? Your gut feeling? Your preconceptions of the Tibetans as goody-two-shoes and the Han as evil overlords? Because not even the Tibetan propaganda states it's a "massacre".

Past practices.
How many political prisoners do the Chinese have to keep before its clear that the Chinese ruling class are a bunch of bad fuckers.

And you think the Tibetans are going to get off easy for this?

DOn't get me wrong. I feel bad for the basic Chinese who is getting attacked in Tibet because he's Chinese. I would feel bad for a white person who got killed in South Africa because he's white. Its not really his fault that he lives under the regimes they do. Or is it?

That you want to believe it's so is great for you, but please don't ask international policy to be based on that kind of thinking.

What I think?
I think Chinese repression of dissent, of control over the media and its willingness to repress minorities or those who don't support its hegemony is abhorrent.

I think Chinese economic policy promotes its domestic interest, which is fine, but the consequences of this means that it breaks the rules by artificially fixing its currency values- to the detriment of the the US and Europe.

I believe the Chinese want to use the Olympics to show the world what a great world player it is, as a symbol of its prestige and accomplishment. Never mind that most of the athletes can't breath the air because its so polluted.

But I also I believe this is an opportunity for the international community to do something constructive that benefits both the Chinese and their own interests.

And its a simple moral issue.
Given the Chinese repression of the Tibetans and their policy to destroy Tibetan culture which the Chinese see as a threat to their hegemony, do you want to play games with these people.

I don't.
 
Brother None said:
Thankfully, despite democracy, government leaders appear to have better heads on their shoulders for now.
Hmm... I understand what you mean, but I wouldn't use those words per se (i.e. "better heads on their shoulders").
Let's just say that government leaders know what is at stake if they were to boycot the Olympics: money, the economy. The fact that China has been given the green light to organize the Olympics is nothing more than a smart, economic decision and the West will benefit from it, one way or another. I don't see it happening, that boycot. But sanctions would be justified, it's that simple, especially if one were to listen to his heart instead of his wallet.

Fact of the matter is: having China organize the Olympics was/is a bad decision, ethically speaking, even before/without the problems in Tibet. It's not okay in a number of ways. It's pure economics. It's moneymaking. And it sucks. But it's the way the cookie crumbles these days.

One can only "hope" that some very big and important athletes will forfeit and stay home during the Olympics, sending out a clear message. We should not expect governments to do this, because they won't. Because they can't.
 
welsh said:
Can't what? Communicate displeasure at this abuse of human rights? Send a signal to the PRC that if they can't behave like a civilized nation than we can't play games with them?

How is that so hard?

It's not hard at all, but imagine you're China.

They see the US is in their hands - literally. They see Europe is dependent on their products. They see us propping up their regime and pushing up their economy. They see the Olympics as just another step in this.

And then here we come, full of bombaster about Tibet, shouting murder and fire and dropping out of the Olympics.

What does it mean to them? Very little, because we're still propping them up, because we have no choice. But it annoys the hell out of them. Who do you think they'll unleash this annoyance on? On us? Or, maybe just maybe, they'll force their cultural genocide on the Tibetans into overdrive.

But hey, at least we padded our own conscience, right?

Fuck that.

welsh said:
That's not a justification for abandoning the Tibetans.

No, I agree there, but...

welsh said:
And furthermore, by coming to the defense of the Tibetans, maybe you give the others a chance to free themselves from a bit of repression.

I disagree here.

Let me compare it to the political opposition in Russia. There are real opposition organisations, especially amongst students, but the West helps cripple them by giving all attention and support to someone who has no realistic chance of representing real opposition at all - i.e. Garry Kasparov.

What happens if all human rights protest is focused on this issue? It becomes a distraction, a playball for China to use to distract us while they do much worse.

welsh said:
SO you are willing to let the Tibetans go, because the others are being repressed and no one cares.

Ok, honestly welsh, I'm not going to continue if you keep putting words in my mouth. Just so we're clear.

welsh said:
29% of the population at less than $1 a day- that's a lot of Chinese and I think there's a fair share of them who are feeling repressed.

I wonder how the 12% of Americans living below the poverty line feel. I noticed you never answered my question; how does the leading economic power for the century keep 12% of its citizens below the poverty line and why don't you care about that?

No, I'm not using this as a "so we shouldn't care about the Chinese"- bit of logic. I don't like that kind of reasoning. But some perspective would do you good.

welsh said:
What do you need to know.

About this riot?

Anything?

We don't know who started it or why. We don't know how involved the Tibetan government in exile is. We don't know how the Chinese reacted exactly, how many casualties they made or how many casualties the opponent made.

Sure, chances are the Chinese overreacted and did make some casualties, but how much damage or casualties were there from the rioting itself? You don't know, instead you're trying to paint this off as some kind of evil-vs-innocence "mass slaughter".

By acting without information, you're decreasing your own credibility. Protest against the Tibetan situation - sure. But vault yourself up on some riots you don't know anything about and you're bound to just piss off the Chinese. It's the same kind of one-sided reaction that exacerbated the Chechen situation, and the same kind of one-sided view we have of the Bosnians and Serbs that just tends to get in the way of real solutions.

welsh said:
And worst case scenario- the Tibetans organized this to get the Chinese out- only makes them as morally culpable as Ghandi organizing the salt march or Martin Luther King organizing a march on Montgomery Alabama.

Even peaceful movements sometimes require blood to be spilled or at least risked.

What the fuck? Burning buildings and terrorizing Han Chinese - which might well be what they did - is not equivalent to the Salt March. You're being ridiculous. It's quite likely there has been mob terror against the Chinese in Tibets during these events, but you're not going to look at the culpability there. Why? Because it's not convenient?

welsh said:
Is this emotional or moral?
Is it emotional- maybe, but so what? Human beings are emotional creatures and usually that reminds us of what our values are.

Is it moral? Shouldn't our morality determine what our foreign policy should be?

You're wrong on both count. Emotional responses in international policy tend to make the situation worse, not better. You don't appear to be interested in real solutions, just in being moral. That's idiotic.

welsh said:
Or perhaps the governments are too willing to concede to China because the Chinese are such a big economy and their afraid that rocking the boat, when the world's economy seems shaky, is dangerous.

Yes, thanks for quoting me back at me, that's useful.

welsh said:
How many political prisoners do the Chinese have to keep before its clear that the Chinese ruling class are a bunch of bad fuckers.

Never said they weren't.

welsh said:
And you think the Tibetans are going to get off easy for this?

I think the Tibetans will be in a lot worse a situation if the world overreacts to this without any real information to go on.
 
BN- I am not putting words in your mouth, only putting out the conclusions of your recommendations.

Do nothing. And by doing nothing, we accomplish less than nothing but only sustain a status quo that we should find abhorrent.

You point out that the US has 12% and I should care. I do care. As a grad student, I come damn close to that 12%. Many of my students come from poor minority communities, and are members of that 12%. And yes, I vote on the issue of economic inequality in the US and the dangers of it. I have made those comments here many times, enough times that you should know better.

As for your need to know- No, you don't need more info. There is plenty of info out ther. There is a historical record. And if the Tibetans initiated this because they saw an opportunity, fine.

And you'd think if the CHinese knew that the Tibetans started it, wouldn't we have heard that by now. It's only been nearly a week and we've had a news blackout.

What are they really hiding?
A criminal hides his crimes. An innocent person proclaims their innocence.

The Tibetans have been pretty transparent. The Dalai Lama has offered to resign and to allow an inspection of the record.

And the Chinese protray the Dalai Lama as a criminal. Are you willing to believe them simply on that allegation, or are you going to review a record? How many lies do you need to hear from the Chinese.

And to be fair, I ask Americans the same thing-how many lies does Bush have to tell you before you stop believing him. That criticism is as fair to the US as it is to Chinese.

What you suggest is to hide your head in the sand.
 
welsh said:
Do nothing.

Where did I say that?

Fairly sure I just said it's not prudent to act before you really know what's going on, nor is it smart to overreact or react emotionally. But not at all? Didn't say that.

welsh said:
As for your need to know- No, you don't need more info. There is plenty of info out ther. There is a historical record. And if the Tibetans initiated this because they saw an opportunity, fine.

And you'd think if the CHinese knew that the Tibetans started it, wouldn't we have heard that by now. It's only been nearly a week and we've had a news blackout.

What are they really hiding?
A criminal hides his crimes. An innocent person proclaims their innocence.

So basically you admit you know nothing but think jumping to conclusions is fine.

That's cool. I don't think so.
 
China does news black out so it hides its move.
Then sends in the troops to round up the resisters, carts them off to camp, does its repressive dance, and then when all things are clear, it lifts the blackout on news.

And you're thoughts are, let's not say anything because the CHinese are keeping us in the dark.

One needs only look at the record of Chinese policy on China to see what they've done already. Even if this riot was started by the Tibetans- and from what I recall the riots started when the CHinese came down hard on Tibetan demonstrators- then I think the Chinese should have seen this one coming.

SO yeah.
You want to wait for the time China feels its convenient to life the blackout, fine.

I think I would rather act quickly before people get killed.
 
I think this has gone to far and it is time to deal with N.K. Only then can we address the real issues on our doorsteps.
 
welsh said:
I think I would rather act quickly before people get killed.

What?

Ok, on the one hand, there's the fact that no government is going to act quickly, fact. On the other hand, how the hell would boycotting the Olympics prevent deaths? Again, I believe such actions would only exacerbate the situation at best, but at worst they simply won't matter.

China is not going to do an about-turn based on something like that. So be honest with yourself, isn't such a move just appeasing your own conscience?
 
I wish China would get rid of that ridiculous red flag and stop pretending they're communists. They haven't been communists in a long time. If anything the Chinese state resembles the Third Reich most closely. They're nationalistic, bellicose, expansionist (seeking to remedy past "humiliations"), and fuel their economic success on the backs of a workforce with no right to dissent.

Okay, so maybe they are still communists.

In any case, the 2008 Olympics bears (bear?) some irritating similarities to the 1936 Olymipcs.
 
Welsh, I don't think that boycotting the Olympics will change anything except ruffle China's feathers a tad, it won't be long before they get back in order.

As for the red flag, it's their bloody flag, how would you like it if someone told you to tear down the red, white, and blue because it was tacky?

However let's be realistic, what can any of us do, we have a hard enough time trying to get obstinate game developers to agree with our views, let alone a country like China.

I'm not saying it's good to leave things as they are, but what can a handful of form readers do, I may dislike the way China handles their working class, but I'm not going to take up arms for them.

Somehow I doubt you would either Welsh, otherwise you'd have done it by now judging by your firey speeches.

Start by boycotting anything made in china, that's something that can be done on a small scale, and work into a larger picture.

However don't expect the lower class of any society to take your lead, they need that produce to survive and stretch their budget as far as possible.

There's only one way you're going to get any kind of change like this, become a politician, and start working towards bringing China to their fiscal, or real knees.

I repeat, boycotting the Olympics will be like a slap on the hand to China it'll smart, but they won't care in 10 minutes after the pain goes away.
 
If Tibet could actually defend themselves against the chinese like the vietnamese/american war then it might have been possible.

However, it doesn't seem like Tibet was ever really prepared to defend its national borders or people from expansionist countries.

Also, we don't know the official position of the Tibetan government. Who is to say they would defend Chinas borders?

So BN is correct when he says that killing innocent han chinese and causing general chaos is counter-productive to their cause.

Look at Tianneman for example. In Maos time, those protestors would have been killed or thrown into camps before they even had a chance to gather. The ability for them to demonstrate for so long in front of the whole world should have been enough for them.

The PRC even tried to negotiate with the students but " However, one large problem was that the protests contained many people with varying agendas, and hence it was unclear with whom the government could negotiate, and what the demands of the protesters were. The confusion and indecision among the protesters was also mirrored by confusion and indecision within the government.".....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

When the army was called in, the protestors should have acknowledged they got their chance and left peacably. However, instead of leaving, they decided to exacerbate the situation by "Entry of the troops into the city was actively opposed by many citizens of Beijing. Protesters burned public buses and used them as roadblocks to stop the military's progress. The battle continued on the streets surrounding the Square, with protesters repeatedly advancing toward the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and constructing barricades with vehicles"........same source

This is a clear example of protestors getting cocky and going way too far. Words and hunger strikes ok. The destruction of government property and repeatedly ignoring the warnings of the army, even challenging them, massive civil disturbances, idiotic and brash.
 
Bullshit.

What has China learned since 1989? That as long as its crackdowns are not viewed by the world's press it can escape reprecussions. So it cuts of the news.

Now the riots are escaping Lhasa and moving elsewhere in China. That's significant not only because it shows planning but it might also suggest that others might join in the protests.

See Here

ANd if the west were to say, "You want to repress the Tibetans and we're going to have to rethink the summer olympics, because we can't play games with a regime like this." That sends a signal.

Ideally, the west could also say, "You don't want to play by the rules of the global economy, fine, we're going to tax Chinese currency transactions and maybe we'll take you off WTO."

This riots are a result of CHina's crappy policies on Tibet, and the Chinese show a remarkable inability to take responsibility for their own policies. Instead they blame the Dalai Lama (a noteworthy terrorist and revolutionary?),

Bullshit.

If the west does nothing, if there is no protest, what it signals is that China's hands are free to do whatever wants to.

Because that's what the Chinese think now. For example, everyone knows that China props up the Sudanese regime that perpetuates genoicide in Darfur, and yet the world does nothing. Why? Because we don't want to mess with the profits of large corporations that do business in China?

Fuck that.
Let them go somewhere else to invest. IF they have the FDI to go eslewhere, let them go elsewhere.

Because those numbers I cited earlier- 29% of Chinese living on $1 dollar a day- that's partially the fault of western businesses. And allowing that to happen means that our people lose jobs.

And what kind of government does that support- a repressive neo-Facist state controlled by a monopolistic party.

This is a simple problem. The Chinese want to exert hegemony over their territory. In some places, where CHina has done well, that hegemony works. People love to enjoy a higher quality of life in China- if you're not part of the half of China's population that lives in poverty.

The other half doesn't do squat because they know the Chinese will break their heads.

Because were a ruling class isn't able to exert its hegemony, then it resorts to repression.

And that's the problem for Tibet. The Tibetans don't recognize China's hegemony or authority. And they protest as they should because whether they do or not, they get repressed.

And China could, perhaps, exert its hegemony over Tibet or the lower classes, but it doesn't. Why- because it has to feed the members of the party and party allies, who have been the ones to profit while the rest of the population gets fucked.

Now Darkcorp and BN, you may be willing to tolerate that or hold up your hands and surrender and says, "can't do shit about that."

Fuck that.

Because its not just limited to China. It affects the countries that China does business with, who its sells arms to, whose jobs it steals and whose economies it weakens.

I am not willing to pay that price for CHinese Communist Party rule.

Fuck that and Fuck China.

IF we don't act, if we don't tell China that we're reconsidering the Olympics because we don't dig what they're doing, do you really think they will be less repressive? Do you think those people won't be carted away?

Or maybe China is strong arming the situation because it thinks it gets away because the West can't make up its fucking mind about whether human rights are more important than sports, or whether its willing to surrender its balls for a profit.

Fuck that.

And you know what, I feel sorry for those poor fuckers in CHina that live in terrible conditions and are repressed when they protest.

But I don't live in that society. ANd in my society I can loudly China to fuck off, I can lobby my Congressman to boycott the olympics, I can write articles in protest, and I can make my opinion known.

ANd it might not be enough, fine. But it sure as hell beats sittingon your hands and doing nothing, gloating about your own emasculation.

So yeah, FUCK you CHina.

The cool thing is that a lot more people are thinking this way, and we're growing in numbers.

In China the communist party is able to exert its hegemony because it pays off its allies and represses its rivals.

But it depends on economic success to survive. You undercut that economic success and the basis for its hegemony dies. And when that hegemony dies, China's ruling class will have to come up with some alternative to justify their rule, or they will be swept away.

That will be a great day.

So yes, we should hurt China for this. Its ruling class needs to realize that it either plays the game of politics in a fair way, or we can set in motion the death of its ruling class.

And sending the CHinese a signal that we're reconsidering the Olympics is a damn good signal of what could come.

China wants to be a super power. It has the third largest economy. But its still a Third World nation in development and in political form. Fuck them.

Darkcorp- if you we would go by your logic- than Martin Luther King should never have marched on Selma, the Filipinos woudl not have overthrown Marcos, the Indians would not have ended British rule. People protest- that's a source of power. The state can repress, that's its power.

But whether a state can repress or has tolerate resistancfe depends on the whether the costs of tolerance outweigh the costs of repression or whether repression outweights tolerance.

Right now China faces no costs to its repression. And so it gets away with it.
 
As I was thinkjing in the shower I realised why I kept citing all those sources of problems throughout history. Its dumb of me I know but I can say it now.

The reason why I brought up those examples was because change is never easy. Every government in history has at some point for the sake of economic/military security done some bad shit. This is how the world works whether you may like it or not. Idealism is good but history shows that you need to temper idealism with realism.

I am not saying protesting is wrong. I am saying there is a point to how much you protest before you back off. Like those protestors in Tianneman had like a month to demonstrate or so. I mean in front of the whole world with the PRC doing little censorship. After speaking to the world, they should have just gone home and felt that they did make a difference.

To an idealic person like you such a move means failure. However, can you really say China hasn't changed? My father when he went back noticed a huge change. My father lived through Maos shitty regime so I believe him when he says there has been REAL change. People can actually criticize the government in their homes without being carted away by the special police. The standard of living is improving. ALmost everyone has a car, cellphones, game systems, whatever you can think of. See the thing is though, China still has a lot to do. I mean even in the US we still don't have our problems sorted out in regards to the haves and the have nots (and the US didn't have half the shit happen to it that CHina had).

So you gotta let the government do its thing. Will it always be pretty? No of course not. But then again, you give me an example where a country has been able to both become an economic and military superpower wthout getting its hands dirty. You also give me an example of an economic superpower that has achieved the wealth distribution that you dream about without getting its hands dirty.
 
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