Creating a character without inventory.

[spottheshark]

I originally played FOT on a pentium 233 which was massively slow but still enjoyable. Now I have a new computer I am starting to play around with the editor. I have downloaded a couple of maps and played around with them but now I want to start building a campaign. I really enjoyed the Slave town mission and thought this would be a good start for a campaign and have gotten my created character to spawn in the cell but no matter what I do he always starts with inventory. I also had a look at melee meltdown mission where the character starts without any inventory but after hours of experimenting I still can't work out how this was done. Can anyone help me?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

You have to edit the items and make them removable on exit. That way when the character spawns the items will be stripped automatically.

Then if you want the same items available later you'll have to make new versions. Easiest thing to do is just use the entities from Melee Meltdown, which removes (and replaces) everything except the poison.

Talking of using other people's work make sure you contact the creator of Slave Town first, the only fan made maps that have been released for people to use in their own campaigns are in the Graveyard (see the DaC modding forum).

 

[spottheshark]

Ok how do you make them removeable on exit?

the campaign is just something I am experimenting with for myself and no one else. It is just a way to learn my way around the editor and will be played by no one else.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Open the items in the entity editor, then under the tab 'Collectable' untick the lootable box and tick the remove on exit box.

 

[Sorrow]

I think that patching the exe would be more efficient way of changing/removing items.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

1. That would break the EULA.

2. You'd need to know what to change. Plus for different modders the items to be removed/replaced might be different needing a different patch for each mod.

3. I've already edited the entities, except for the poison, so all people need to do is use the entities from Melee Meltdown.

4. FOT modding is pretty much dead except for a few diehards and the occasional newbie.

 

[Sorrow]

1. So does modding in general.

2. All one needs to know what to change is the name of entity he wants to change.

3. That depends on scale of the mod. I'm modding the core campaign and patching .exe is more convenient to me than replacing a lot of items on maps and entities.
Also it's more neat.

 

[Shadowbird]

1. So does modding in general.

Paste the FOT EULA part which is violated by modding (cause I don't have the discs on hand right now), please, because I don't remember seeing anything like that in there (but it was a long time ago and I've never been very good remembering things that don't interest me, so...).

 

[Sorrow]

I said that modding in general violates EULA, not that FoT modding does.

 

[Ashmo]

1. So does modding in general.

Paste the FOT EULA part which is violated by modding (cause I don't have the discs on hand right now), please, because I don't remember seeing anything like that in there (but it was a long time ago and I've never been very good remembering things that don't interest me, so...).

"Modding in general" tends to qualify as software manipulation, which is usually forbidden by the EULA.

Using the official mapper is legit, but unless they changed the EULA, all content the mapper creates is legally IPLY's / MicroForté's (which was why there was such an outcry when the official tools were released and someone actually read the EULA).

Depending on how you read it, supplying extra content and tricking the game into using it without directly manipulating the software is legit, tho.

This obviously includes runtime patchers unless they are explicitly forbidden.

StarCraft modding eventually relied on that kind of patchers (executables that run the game's exe without altering it and then modify the memmory or the game's output/input and thus do not manipulate the binaries de jure) -- it was the only way to change hardcoded stuff (like the buttons a unit can have) without reverse engineering or hacking the binaries.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

1. So does modding in general.

Creating new content or editing entities, tiles and sprites isn't against the EULA. Though everything you create/alter becomes MFs property. But reverse engineering the exe to make a patch is specifically against the EULA.

2. All one needs to know what to change is the name of entity he wants to change.

3. That depends on scale of the mod. I'm modding the core campaign and patching .exe is more convenient to me than replacing a lot of items on maps and entities.
Also it's more neat.

Not really, and it must be a lot more work to hack the exe work out the coding that determines the starting entities than to go through the maps and replace items. Especially since I've already edited them and made new versions which you can use. Most of the actors can be edited in the entity editor, other than the first few maps and the last few robot missions they didn't make much use of the override option in the level editor so it's quite easy to just open up the actors and add new items. You don't need to delete the originals since I made them unlootable so they don't show up in game at all, but can still be used by the ai.

Plus all the possible combinations of starting items don't include every item in the game so it's not like you have to replace everything. The only drawback is the QM list, but if you're intending to include a new cam file then that's not a problem otherwise the default list does get a little sparse.

And there's no such thing as neat when modding FOT, unfortunately.

 

[Sorrow]

Not really, and it must be a lot more work to hack the exe work out the coding that determines the starting entities than to go through the maps and replace items.

It needs a tremendous effort of opening .exe in hex editor and using a search function to find mp5sub.

1. So does modding in general.

Creating new content or editing entities, tiles and sprites isn't against the EULA. Though everything you create/alter becomes MFs property. But reverse engineering the exe to make a patch is specifically against the EULA.

I'm not talking about reverse engineering but about editing .exe like a save game file or something similar.
I think that license is against it too, but it's not the same thing.
It's replacing/removing entities names in .exe without trying to understand how the whole thing works or making any additional changes.
As for sprites... I don't recall MF releasing sprites editor...

I'm not sure how MF would react to making a patch that is needed to make custom campaign work correctly without resorting to cheesy tricks like replacing entities, etc, but I was in C&C modding community and I'm in Baldur's Gate modding community and patching .exe to make mods work properly (ie. experience points patches for BG2 TCs, modified copies of .exe with modified files paths to make C&C run multiple mods on the same install, etc.) is a norm and sign of "professional" approach to modding.

 

[Ashmo]

It's technically illegal.

At the very least the distribution of patched EXEs is.

Writing a patcher OTOH may exploit a loophole if only the redistribution, not the actual modification, is forbidden.

 

[Sorrow]

Hmm...
Would getting a permission from MF to do such thing be possible?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It needs a tremendous effort of opening .exe in hex editor and using a search function to find mp5sub.

It does if you don't know the first thing about hex editing. Assuming that's all you'd need to do.

Well unless you were planning on including the hacked exe with your mod (which MF would most likely object to) then you'd still have to write the patch file and is it really that much less work to write code, test it than to take the edited entities and add them to the game (remember you don't have to touch the originals just add the new versions to various people and places)?

I'm not talking about reverse engineering but about editing .exe like a save game file or something similar.
I think that license is against it too, but it's not the same thing.
It's replacing/removing entities names in .exe without trying to understand how the whole thing works or making any additional changes.
As for sprites... I don't recall MF releasing sprites editor...

They haven't because Interplay wouldn't allow them to. But the EULA specifically states that any new materials can be distributed (though not for commercial purposes) and become the property of MF. New materials in their list includes artwork and animations.

I'm not sure how MF would react to making a patch that is needed to make custom campaign work correctly without resorting to cheesy tricks like replacing entities, etc, but I was in C&C modding community and I'm in Baldur's Gate modding community and patching .exe to make mods work properly (ie. experience points patches for BG2 TCs, modified copies of .exe with modified files paths to make C&C run multiple mods on the same install, etc.) is a norm and sign of "professional" approach to modding.

What cheesy tricks, that's how FOT modding works, go back to modding C&C if you don't like the way things have been done. Sure contact MF, they might give you permission given it's an old game hardly anyone's interested in anymore, on the otherhand they might just tell you to edit the entities, after all that's why they released an enitity editor.

Another thing, FOT supports running different mods under different paths, replacing the entities in one mod doesn't affect any other mod, but if you hack the exe then you'll effect all the mods people have installed. If a mod was released that did that, I'd be very dubious about installing it, probably so would most other FOT players (those few that are left).

Cheesy fucking tricks, WTF?

One of the great things about FOT modding is that people didn't need to be coders to mod it, virtually everything that could be modded could be done with the official tools. That means replacing the entities, they even tell you to use different paths in the editor readme so as not to overwrite the original files. There's nothing professional or unprofessional about the approach taken to mod FOT. We work within the limits of the EULA with the tools given and a few fan made ones.

 

[Judge Iceberg]

Why not work within the existing structure?

Can't say as I understand all of the back and forth about the EULA and mods and such but it sounds to me like a lot of work. Why not work WITH the editor and WITH the Entities and Tiles as they exist and see what you can do with them within the EULA?

Sometimes people get so hung up on having their own way about something, regardless of the hurdles that creates, that they forget it is also a challenge to see what interesting results they can get within the restrictions and with the tools and pieces you already have available.

I've made a number of maps and parts of maps and hardly ever edit any of the entities. Not like there are not already more variations possible then you will ever have time to explore.

JI

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

bobbythekitten: