Developers' Choice RPG of the Decade

Morbus said:
Why would JRPGs be considered RPGs and games like Dawn of War and stuff like that not? From a design point of view, they are very similar.
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In what way is a JRPG the same as a RTS? Their narratives are structured most like RPGs and any running off of the Final Fantasy model have their roots in D&D. Most are highly simplified with very few real choices but so what? ARPGs are completely linear, with the only choices being in how you level up. Some JRPGs (particularly TRPGs) offer choices in how you level up so they meet that criterion. The RPG genre is pretty hard to define at this point as most games have RPG elements but JRPGs are a firmly established sub-genre at this point.

UniversalWolf said:
NWN was terrible. Even with good (in some cases very good) fan-made modules, the core was rotten so playing it was always unpleasant. The official campaign was atrocious.
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Abyss 404 was awesome and the best world I ever played on. It used no hakpacks and did more than most worlds with them did. Granted, it was one of a kind and the maker of it used ridiculous amounts of custom programming but still, it showed what could be done with the game.
 
JRPGs came from the Ultima series, mostly. Frankly, in most cases it can be argued that JRPGs are more similar to adventure games than they are to RPG games at this point, though. That's given that we're talking about FF-style games. If we're talking about action JRPGs then they're worth including, and are in some cases better than the Western counterparts even if not quite as flashy.

The so-called TRPGs don't belong though, they're just tactical games like X-Com or FO:T. They aren't JRPGs (it's quite a clear distinction in most cases), and certainly not RPGs.
 
Jeez, leave Tim alone. If he likes hack'n'slash sandbox games like Oblivion, let him. You're acting like he admitted to enjoying lolicon or some other weird fetish.
 
Wow, you actually deleted my post just because it was different from your opinion? You won't allow having your ideas contested? Everyone here is stating how much they dislike Oblivion, and when I state that it was a good game, my post gets deleted? Ridiculous...
 
Ausdoerrt said:
JRPGs came from the Ultima series, mostly. Frankly, in most cases it can be argued that JRPGs are more similar to adventure games than they are to RPG games at this point, though. That's given that we're talking about FF-style games. If we're talking about action JRPGs then they're worth including, and are in some cases better than the Western counterparts even if not quite as flashy.
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Adventure games? Really? I can't think of any adventure games with an experience system and as combat heavy and puzzle light as JRPGs. They are clearly different from most western RPGs but I don't think they are different enough, as a whole, to disqualify as RPGs. When it comes down to it, what makes RPGs RPGs is the mechanics. I think there's a fair argument for dismissing JRPGs that offer no character building choices as RPGs but it's all a bit murky. I just think that RPG as it applies to video games has become a very large and inclusive genre, right or wrong. Hell, I've seen some Zelda games classified as RPGs by gaming publications so it's a caddywhompus genre.

Ausdoerrt said:
The so-called TRPGs don't belong though, they're just tactical games like X-Com or FO:T. They aren't JRPGs (it's quite a clear distinction in most cases), and certainly not RPGs.
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True enough, not sure what I was thinking lumping them together (actually I was thinking that narrative-wise they were similar tonally but that's just plain stupid). Still, I think it comes down to what you consider necessary for a game to be a RPG. D&D is a tactical game when it comes to combat, why should TRPGs be disqualified because of their combat? ARPGs have linear stories and Bioware games basically only offer two different paths for any quest, both of which tend to be pretty similar so I don't really think you can disqualify them based on their narratives.

If they were only talking about CRPGs (which I'm surprised they weren't) then I really wouldn't take issue with it but it's goofy to be picking which subgenres to include and which not to, especially when the line seems pretty arbitrary and specifically designed to exclude Japanese games. That said, I'm sure they missed their fair share of western RPGs as well (Borderlands for example), the lists did not look long enough.
 
Adventure games? Really? I can't think of any adventure games with an experience system and as combat heavy and puzzle light as JRPGs.
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Ever since JRPGs started to emphasize narrative over battle and stats, they've been getting more similar. I'm not saying it's the same thing, but if you had to pick a Western counterpart, that's definitely closer than RPG.

Hell, I've seen some Zelda games classified as RPGs by gaming publications so it's a caddywhompus genre.
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They're ALMOST aRPGs, really. Add on some stats and voila!

D&D is a tactical game when it comes to combat, why should TRPGs be disqualified because of their combat? ARPGs have linear stories and Bioware games basically only offer two different paths for any quest, both of which tend to be pretty similar so I don't really think you can disqualify them based on their narratives.
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Except that D&D has ... roleplaying. TRPGs don't merely emphasize combat, that's all they have. You're right, they're sort of similar to aRPGs in a certain sense, but given the completely different combat system they're better left off in their own subgenre.

As to whether they're RPGs or not... Well, is X-Com an RPG? Or Commandos?

Also, I'm not trying to justify them for excluding J-games. I'm just saying I see where they're coming from.
 
NiRv4n4 said:
... deleted my post just because...
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Your post wasn't deleted, it was moved to the Vats (along with some other posts to avoid derailing the thread). And it wasn't moved because you thought the game was good. It was moved because you directly attacked the opinions of others. There is a more proper way you could have written your post:

"I don't really understand why Oblivion is always bashed so much. I thought that Oblivion was without doubt the most open ended RPG (also considering content) ever at the time. If you haven't played it, and enjoy first person hack n slash style games, then you'd probably enjoy it."

Keep in mind that first person style hack n slash games aren't for everyone. Also, the anti-Oblivion posts weren't deleted because they didn't attack the opinion of people who liked Oblivion. Or did they? I didn't really notice.

Anyway.. even I myself enjoyed Oblivion and Fallout 3 for what they were. They were not tactical RPG style games, like most of the people who post here prefer, so it's easy to understand why Fallout fans / NMA members don't really appreciate the drastic change in gameplay from the originals.

It'd be kinda like someone telling me I am closed minded because I think Bioshock & STALKER are crappy games. Which would be kinda weird, considering I tried the Bioshock demo and even purchased STALKER.
 
If we're talking about cRPGs, definitely Arcanum, even though I could never complete it due to various bugs and annoyances, solely because it's a deep, enriching experiences of the older days (Fallout, Planescape Torment).

If we focus on the free-roaming aspect of RPGs, I'd pick Morrowind- Never bothered to do more than a couple of missions, but all the places and people you could find, all the small challenges that weren't connected to the plotline whatsoever, and the sheer hostility and variety of the world made it a stunning experience. I never forget the feeling of accomplishment after slaying a dark elven farmer and freed all his slaves, netting some very powerful items.

And lastly, if we're looking for story-driven, deeply immersive experiences, I'd choose Mass Effect 2, even if it doesn't count. That game may very well be more a TPS than RPG, but heck, was it satisfying to play and intriguing at every step of the way.

Honorary mention: Gothic 2 for the simulated, organized day/night cycles and rough enviroment.
 
" I ignored the main storyline for most of my playing of this game,..."

i always saw this as a flaw in it, being that the main story line is presented as something OMG!!!! URGENT!!!
then either change/fix the main storyline
or
make it urgent
 
My picks would be Morrowind or Knights of the Old Republic.

I wanted to like ToEE, but I could never get the damned game to run properly.

I found Arcanum a tad.... obtuse.
 
Now if he had picked Neverwinter Nights, World of Warcraft, or maybe even Mass Effect 2 then everyone might have been just fine and peachy with that. But Oblivion? Noooo.. the sky is falling! Sheesh. It's just an opinion.

It's not the game I would have picked. I'm not even sure I would have picked one. But honestly, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, right?
 
I wonder where I can still buy ToEE or if. Wasn't there something about massive fan patches for that game as well, or am I thinking of something else (might be confusing that Vampire game with it)?

Reconite said:
Cool people sometimes have shit opinions, and that's opinionated in itself. And vice-versa of course.
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You just blew my mind man...
 
PaladinHeart said:
Now if he had picked Neverwinter Nights, World of Warcraft, or maybe even Mass Effect 2 then everyone might have been just fine and peachy with that. But Oblivion? Noooo.. the sky is falling! Sheesh. It's just an opinion.
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I'd probably be just as put off if somebody sad WoW was the best RPG of the decade...

Besides, Oblivion is a great forest simulator, but far from a great RPG.

ToEE seemed awesome (it was my favourite boxed adventure from my D&D days) but even with the fan patches, I couldn't get past some of the damned bugs in that software. Troika should have been ashamed for releasing a product in that state. Hell... I had the "you can't loot shit" bug in my game. How does that stuff make it through testing?
 
All things considered.. I guess ToEE would get my vote. There are some fan made thingies here: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/index_editors.php

(Edit: Oops. That's the editors. Here's the Circle of Eight mods: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/index_circle.php
Not sure if that's the mods you thinking of. Anyways there's a bunch of mods around that website)

I wanted to play through it again with the extra content but the prospect of redoing all the quests in the starting town put me to sleep. xP
 
rcorporon said:
PaladinHeart said:
Now if he had picked Neverwinter Nights, World of Warcraft, or maybe even Mass Effect 2 then everyone might have been just fine and peachy with that. But Oblivion? Noooo.. the sky is falling! Sheesh. It's just an opinion.
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I'd probably be just as put off if somebody sad WoW was the best RPG of the decade...

Besides, Oblivion is a great forest simulator, but far from a great RPG.

ToEE seemed awesome (it was my favourite boxed adventure from my D&D days) but even with the fan patches, I couldn't get past some of the damned bugs in that software. Troika should have been ashamed for releasing a product in that state. Hell... I had the "you can't loot shit" bug in my game. How does that stuff make it through testing?
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The "can't loot" DX9.0c bug was apparently fixed by the 3rd official patch, and also fixed by the modpack.

I was actually able to complete the game after initial release, unpatched. It seemed like I ended up missing a large portion of the game due to bugs, skipping to the end battle before it seemed possible.
 
Arcanum would be my choice. Buggy, shitty combat and generally unbalanced? Oh yes. But the roleplaying is fucking outstanding.
My second choice would be NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer.

ToEE had a great combat system, but the encounter design was pretty shitty. It also had a fair amount of choices (which people seem to miss) but the writing was so shitty and uninspired that it was hard to give a damn. For all its ugliness, indie game Knights of the Chalice did a better job at providing a D&D combat simulator in my opinion.
Bloodlines was sort of the opposite of ToEE for me. The writing and atmosphere is extremely dead-on but the gameplay is so-so and really falls apart after Downtown (Hollywood is alright but Chinatown is awful).

Dragon Age would be pretty high on my list as well. A bit too many things that I don't like about it for it to really be a classic on my list, but there's a lot of good choices to be had and the expansion of a classic RPG trope such as the backgrounds (or Origins) was a great move.

Interesting that Tim Cain likes Oblivion to that degree. I had some fun with the game but can't say I'm particularly fond of it.
 
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