Does anyone else realize how stupid Arthur Maxson being sent East Coast is?

[xxdemonxspawnnxx]

To be fair, I think ignoring Tactics' retarded Midwestern empire was actually a good decision. In general, I mean. Even Caesar's mention of the Brotherhood "out east" could literally just be a reference to Van Buren's remote chapter of the Brotherhood that was rooted in east Arizona. Ironically enough named the Maxson Bunker.

The Brotherhood never struck me as a faction with massive amounts of disposabal manpower. Whilst deploying squadrons eastward is actually within their ideology, I could only see it as justifiable if they were aware of specific dangerous technology that would warrant that. As it stands both in the context of Tactics and Fallout 3, the Brotherhood just sent massive amounts of men that they got from somewhere on a completely blind expedition east to basically see what's up, or to chase down Super-Mutants that were running away. As the actions of a populous and well-driven empire/nation, that would make sense. For a reclusive order of techno-monks living in scattered bunkers across California, not particularly.

If you are telling about the gameplay of fallout tactics, you are most likely right. But the midwestern BoS isn't that retarded.

They did not travel to Chicago to fight mutants, they wanted to recover technology from vault 0. They recruited outsiders only because of the lack of personnel, unlike Lyons who just want to do 'good'. The ending makes BoS balanced(losing calculator) unlike fo3 where they become op with Liberty Prime.. Tactics happen before fallout 2, so they might be still fighting mutants

I agree eastern and midwestern BoS sound too similar. There is even some cut content that proves the theory of BoS coming east to be reasonable. But for me, Fallout 3 bos just sound too much like bethesda wanted to redo the midwestern bos, but also wanted everyone to ignore the idea being used from tactics.

 

[TJQKA]

Like why would the main Brotherhood (at the time before Lyons expedition) send the descendant of the most lauded founder of the organization dating back all the way to the aftermath of the Great War with some contingent all the way on the other side of the country? What basis would this have?

Its especially damning since there are no other Maxsons (because apparently the Maxson dynasty never bothered to have multiple children despite being part of one of the only societies in the Wasteland with the readible privilege to do so, even being at the top of the hierarchy of said society nonetheless) in the first place, the main council of the BoS would never greenlight such an action. Its almost as if Bethesda only strung this Maxson because they probably already had their horrific Fallout 4 plot already on the drawing board and needed an excuse for spawning in this particular Maxson. (I only say this because they already had their stupid Blade-Runner rip planned in lieu of the "Replicated Man" quest in rivet city).

His mom kicked him out. cry about it.

 

[Jogre]

If you are telling about the gameplay of fallout tactics, you are most likely right. But the midwestern BoS isn't that retarded.

They did not travel to Chicago to fight mutants, they wanted to recover technology from vault 0. They recruited outsiders only because of the lack of personnel, unlike Lyons who just want to do 'good'. The ending makes BoS balanced(losing calculator) unlike fo3 where they become op with Liberty Prime.. Tactics happen before fallout 2, so they might be still fighting mutants

I agree eastern and midwestern BoS sound too similar. There is even some cut content that proves the theory of BoS coming east to be reasonable. But for me, Fallout 3 bos just sound too much like bethesda wanted to redo the midwestern bos, but also wanted everyone to ignore the idea being used from tactics.

Another Fallout Tactics appreciator, good to see.

Also to quote the intro "Super mutants, the foot soldiers of a conquered army had been forced into retreat across the mountainous barrier to the east. The Brotherhood constructed airships and dispatched the minority to track down and assess the extent of the remaining super mutant threat." Yeah they explicitly traveled East to fight the Master's Army's remnants.

I do agree with youy that them recruiting outsiders for lack of personnel is more interesting than the Fallout 3 good guy thing. If anything I think Tactics handles the themes of Fallout 3 IRT the Brotherhood, but handles it right.

It shows a Brotherhood that's given up isolationism, and has dedicated itself to fighting Supermutants full time, but rather than it being this massive "These ones are the good ones and these ones are the bad ones", it's always shown as internal politics.

Moreover, the conflict between the Supermutants and the Brotherhood is way more interesting, since as Latham points out, the Supermutants are effectively just ordinary people, who fight the Brotherhood of Steel not because they're monsters, but because the Brotherhood is this force that's chased them all the way over here and keeps trying to kill them.

You wouldn't have a Bethesda game with sympathetic Supermutants fighting the player because of legitimate grievances, with someone being able to articulate how they're actually the victims in the conflict convincingly.

I really like the whole uselessness of this conflict, where it's these two groups who are just at war with each other without much reflection, but ultimately the culmination of the realisation that they need to work together to deal with the greater threat, Calculator.

All in all, Tactics may not be great, but it does everything Fallout 3 tries to do but better.

 

[laclongquan]

Optimus prime make a good reason to send a contigent across a continent to get at it. On the surface anyway. Exile the not-right-thinkers is too insolent. But if you say to find a superweapon, a mega robot that can crush an army... it sounds good

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Optimus prime make a good reason to send a contigent across a continent to get at it. On the surface anyway. Exile the not-right-thinkers is too insolent. But if you say to find a superweapon, a mega robot that can crush an army... it sounds good

But they didn’t know about Liberty Prime before they got to DC

 

[laclongquan]

Technically they dont know because beth writers said so.

Realistically there shoukd be all kind of info about it from prewar data source the bos should have collected

Because optimus prime is a continental siege unit aiming at alaska that was in heavy propaganda is how. Newspaper. Magazine. Emails between research and development facilities m etion it. Etc and etc.

Its like how you know america can launch rockets to go to moon from facilities in california. Or englishmen can get oil from north sea rigs. Why do you know about it? Media talk about it is why

 

[Norzan]

People dont suddenly wake up and want to help one day. its a long and gradual process.

Doesn't change the fact that BoS only started to want to help when they got to the Capital Wasteland. And yeah, that's how it happnens in the game. Lyons sees how the Capital Wasteland is and decides to help. It was literally in one day.

As for the trip, its interesting how betheda writers never spoke about how. Though logically they can do train track and fusion engine. A great method as long as you can manage power. Another method is ftbos airships

A faction on its last legs of resources and manpower (according to Fallout 2) wouldn't have any of that. The Enclave was annihilating BoS in Fallout 2, why do you think they were barely alive in New Vegas?

It makes no sense for a group of people ill-equipped and ill-prepared for such a long trek to somehow survive. Not to mention it had literal children and scribes among them and those somehow survived. To pour further salt on the would, they got further than they anticipated.

There's no logic that can somehow make this make sense, given what the previous game told us. They should all be dead.

Technically they dont know because beth writers said so.

That justifies nothing.

Its like how you know america can launch rockets to go to moon from facilities in california. Or englishmen can get oil from north sea rigs. Why do you know about it? Media talk about it is why

Because it's none of your business to know that unless you are involved. You are supposed to know why things happen in videogames because that's literally the job of the writers. To tell us what's goin on. And when they don't bother to explain, that means they didn't give a single shit to do it.


You are becoming just as a normal Bethesda fan. Between this and that nonsense with Fallout 3 having tactical combat, you are sounding incredibly close to a Bethesda apologist. I see Todd Howard's mind control is working on you. You can like the game all you want, but at least come up with some arguments that make sense.

 

[mannawyadden]

All in all, Tactics may not be great, but it does everything Fallout 3 tries to do but better.

Things Fallout 3 tried to do (yes, they did try, whether or not they succeeded is another matter):

• Consistent lore building
• References to the first two games
• Open world genre
• Real-time combat
• First person view
• Cool environments to explore
• Optional side-quests with different outcomes

So Fallout Tactics does all of this, but better?

Technically they dont know because beth writers said so.

Realistically there shoukd be all kind of info about it from prewar data source the bos should have collected ... Media talk about it is why

Do we know that Liberty Prime wasn't a highly classified, top secret weapon?

Doesn't change the fact that BoS only started to want to help when they got to the Capital Wasteland. And yeah, that's how it happnens in the game. Lyons sees how the Capital Wasteland is and decides to help. It was literally in one day.

Hey Norzan, good to see you. Yeah, Lyons decision to help people was pretty unpopular. That's why the faction split and the Brotherhood Outcasts said Lyons was a traitor that would face a firing squad upon their return.

A faction on its last legs of resources and manpower (according to Fallout 2) wouldn't have any of that. The Enclave was annihilating BoS in Fallout 2, why do you think they were barely alive in New Vegas?

I was pretty disappointed at the weak BoS presence in Fallout 2. That aside, Fallout 2 takes place in 2241. Fallout 3 takes place in 2277. Maybe during those 30 years they were able to rebuild their forces, since the Enclave was defeated. Maybe they were barely alive in New Vegas because the majority of their rebuilt forces ended up going East to search for new technology and supplies, if they'd exhausted most local sources over the years.

It makes no sense for a group of people ill-equipped and ill-prepared for such a long trek to somehow survive. Not to mention it had literal children and scribes among them and those somehow survived. To pour further salt on the would, they got further than they anticipated.

There's no logic that can somehow make this make sense, given what the previous game told us. They should all be dead.

30 years to collect Power Armor and Laser Rifles. They also had combat training, and organized leadership.. I like their odds against Raiders and Ghouls.

You are supposed to know why things happen in videogames because that's literally the job of the writers. To tell us what's goin on. And when they don't bother to explain, that means they didn't give a single shit to do it.

I agree 100%. And I don't think the BoS went east looking for Liberty Prime, there's nothing in the game's narrative to support that theory.

You are becoming just as a normal Bethesda fan. Between this and that nonsense with Fallout 3 having tactical combat, you are sounding incredibly close to a Bethesda apologist. I see Todd Howard's mind control is working on you. You can like the game all you want, but at least come up with some arguments that make sense.

I really enjoyed Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics. Also enjoyed 3. Currently thinking of modding Fallout 2 to tone down the "Fourth Wall" breaking and cultural references. I don't think Fallout 3 has tactical combat.

Are my stats high enough to resist the Master's- I mean, Todd Howard's mind control?

Like why would the main Brotherhood (at the time before Lyons expedition) send the descendant of the most lauded founder of the organization dating back all the way to the aftermath of the Great War with some contingent all the way on the other side of the country? What basis would this have?

I haven't played New Vegas or Fallout 4 yet so I don't have much lore to base this off of. Norzan seemed to imply their forces on the West Coast were in pretty bad shape in 227X, so the best I can come up with is:

• They thought Arthur Maxson's best chance of survival would be going with the east coast expedition?
• They were hoping he wouldn't survive, and wanted him dead for political reasons?
• They thought that if he left the safety and comfort of home and survived the difficult journey, the formative experience would help him grow a great leader?

 

[Jogre]

So Fallout Tactics does all of this, but better?

Pedantry isn't an attractive character trait.

What I meant was, in term of story, Fallout Tactics handled all the same themes and ideas of Fallout 3, and basically has the same premise, but it does it 100X better.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I had always assumed that Arthur Maxson went to DC with the maine body of the expedition. However, I realized that the Lyons expedition left in 2254, and by 2277 Maxson is 11, so he couldn't have been on the original expedition. I checked the wiki, and apparently he was in fact sent as a baby after Lyons had already arrived in DC...

So we are to believe that the Brotherhood launched not one, but two expeditions by foot all the way to the east coast, the sole (or at least primary) purpose of the second being to send a baby...

 

[mannawyadden]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I just took you literally and honestly thought it was what you were saying. Your claim seemed like a huge overexaggeration but I see what you meant now.

--
Wow, yeah they must've sent the Maxson kid later. It's pretty hard to justify or explain that decision, yeah. Maybe they were trying to kill him off then...or someone kidnapped him...I dunno.

 

[xxdemonxspawnnxx]

Things Fallout 3 tried to do (yes, they did try, whether or not they succeeded is another matter):

• Consistent lore building
• References to the first two games
• Open world genre
• Real-time combat
• First person view
• Cool environments to explore
• Optional side-quests with different outcomes

Maybe you forgot to add
▪More BoS, Super mutants, enclave

I liked fallout 4 though. I feel like Fallout 4 should be what fallout 3 tried. New factions and stop relying on Brotherhood and Enclave. And the writing is much better.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I just took you literally and honestly thought it was what you were saying. Your claim seemed like a huge overexaggeration but I see what you meant now.

--
Wow, yeah they must've sent the Maxson kid later. It's pretty hard to justify or explain that decision, yeah. Maybe they were trying to kill him off then...or someone kidnapped him...I dunno.

The justification given in the game guide is that his mother ("the Lady Maxson") sent him to be under Lyon's tutelage after his father died because the boy was too timid.

 

[Norzan]

• Consistent lore building

Did they actually tried this? Forget if they did it right or not, did they really tried? What is presented to me in the game is that Bethesda didn't actually care for any continuity or internal consistency, at least any that is consistent with the first two games.

What i see in the game is Bethesda basically playing with their new toys, just jamming as much as possible from the first two games into their own game, no matter how nonsensical or contrived it is. Because writing actual new stuff is hard.

I have said this before, the worst of it is not the continuity being smashed into a million pieces or any contrivance to justify any of the inclusions from the first two games, the problem is that it's boring as shit. I don't care if they were doing to please the nostalgia of old players (which makes no sense because a lot of the fans of the first two games didn't cared for the direction the game was going), or that it was introducing all of these things to new players, it's just dull and boring to play yet another game with the BoS, the Enclave, the Super Mutants and all the other recycled shit without hardly anything new or any creative spin on those old things. You have this whole new landscape where you can literally come up with anything that doesn't need to be beholden to the first two games, and yet they try to jam as much old stuff as possible.

New Vegas did the same thing, but there it made sense. It's on the West Coast, where these things come from. And even with that, it introduced new things like the Legion and House and did creative spins with old things. Like Jacobstown for Super Mutants, and the Enclave Remnants.

 

[mannawyadden]

At least they set their game on the opposite end of the country and didn't directly invalidate any of the events of the previous games. Imagine if Fallout 3 were set on the West Coast but it was otherwise exactly the same, and then Bethesda said that Fallout 1 and 2 are just "Legends" and nothing that happened in them is canon anymore.

As for unique/exciting ideas in Fallout 3, I admit I can't think of any right now. Maybe Tranquility Lane? The Pitt and Point Lookout felt new, but they're DLC so I won't count them. Now I'll admit that when I saw a Super Mutant and talk of the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 76, I ragequit the game and never went back.

I think at least some of the people that worked on Fallout 3 must have been fans of the original games. They included a statue of Interplay's gold globe logo in the ruins of the city. And yesterday, I saw this while reading about Fallout 1:

The alien blaster was to be referred to as "Firelance" in cut dialogue with Jason Zimmerman. The Vault Dweller: "{104}{}{Actually, I'm from Mars. Want to see my firelance?}" This is a reference to the identically named Martian weapon appearing in the Wasteland Paragraphs

Fallout 3 did add the Firelance as a powered up version of the alien blaster. I think small details like that are cool.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

At least they set their game on the opposite end of the country and didn't directly invalidate any of the events of the previous games. Imagine if Fallout 3 were set on the West Coast but it was otherwise exactly the same, and then Bethesda said that Fallout 1 and 2 are just "Legends" and nothing that happened in them is canon anymore.

As for unique/exciting ideas in Fallout 3, I admit I can't think of any right now. Maybe Tranquility Lane? The Pitt and Point Lookout felt new, but they're DLC so I won't count them. Now I'll admit that when I saw a Super Mutant and talk of the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 76, I ragequit the game and never went back.

I think at least some of the people that worked on Fallout 3 must have been fans of the original games. They included a statue of Interplay's gold globe logo in the ruins of the city. And yesterday, I saw this while reading about Fallout 1:



Fallout 3 did add the Firelance as a powered up version of the alien blaster. I think small details like that are cool.

Fallout 3's greatest set pieces is the atmosphere of the Wasteland (MUH IMMURSION), its art direction (though I know Walpknut would not countenance this), and its setpieces, which are really quite fantastic. Honorable mention goes to its fun sidequests, which often have interesting premises and resolutions.

The problem with all of these is that these are just the framework you build a great game story over. Without a depth of writing, worldbuilding, or vision, all of these things become floating islands disconnected from each other with little purpose.

 

[Zvezda]

Though logically they can do train tracks...

To use an existing train track, you need to already control the entire length of the route to make sure it's intact and clear. Otherwise, the train will at best be blocked, worse end up derailed, even worse catastrophically derail, and worst of all, crash.

Rail lines degrade extremely quickly if not maintained as debris builds up on the tracks and the rails break down from natural forces. This'll obviously be way worse after a nuclear apocalypse, especially since destroying major infrastructure is kinda the whole point of bombs. Yeah, if you can even find a pre-War railway line, you're not gonna be able to use it.

...and fusion engine. A great method as long as you can manage power.

Potentially, but fusion power was actually pretty scarce even before the war. Transporting so much material in such hard conditions across such a long distance would probably be too impractical to do with ordinary land vehicles.

Another method is ftbos airships

This is the only option I can really see as being plausible.

Then we get onto wondering how a tiny, dying cult of techno monks can build huge blimps to transport hundreds of people across the continent like it's nothing and how that's had little to no effect on the world especially the huge industrial power they're at war with.

 

[laclongquan]

Spoiler: norzan being dumbass so i shorten his tldr post

you are being very uninteresting so i will deal with you later in careful details. For now just one issue first

Doesn't change the fact that BoS only started to want to help when they got to the Capital Wasteland. And yeah, that's how it happnens in the game. Lyons sees how the Capital Wasteland is and decides to help. It was literally in one day.


A faction on its last legs of resources and manpower (according to Fallout 2) wouldn't have any of that. The Enclave was annihilating BoS in Fallout 2, why do you think they were barely alive in New Vegas?

It makes no sense for a group of people ill-equipped and ill-prepared for such a long trek to somehow survive. Not to mention it had literal children and scribes among them and those somehow survived. To pour further salt on the would, they got further than they anticipated.

There's no logic that can somehow make this make sense, given what the previous game told us. They should all be dead.


That justifies nothing.


Because it's none of your business to know that unless you are involved. You are supposed to know why things happen in videogames because that's literally the job of the writers. To tell us what's goin on. And when they don't bother to explain, that means they didn't give a single shit to do it.


You are becoming just as a normal Bethesda fan. Between this and that nonsense with Fallout 3 having tactical combat, you are sounding incredibly close to a Bethesda apologist. I see Todd Howard's mind control is working on you. You can like the game all you want, but at least come up with some arguments that make sense.

Just because you are being dumb doesnt mean everyone else need to be at your level.

Atomic bomb is secret At That Time so noone know. 1 century later people from other side of earth know usa had a city-destroying bomb project at manhattan. Thats the kind secret but not so secret after time passed optimus prime is.

Theres nothing, logically speaking, to say a group dedicated to hunting down prewar knowledge, super weapon, etc... can not know about a continental siege weapon like optimus prime at pentagon, washington dc. Its a fucking big engineering project, not a lab research or design problem. Lots people and departments are involved. Lots of materials and people will be transfered from one place to another in the cause of making and fixing it.

Seriously, its an obvious logic problem. The fact norzan cant understand it just say it all about his intelligence. Iam unsure that i will have enough interest to demolish him later. Dumbo is boring.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Atomic bomb is secret At That Time so noone know. 1 century later people from other side of earth know usa had a city-destroying bomb project at manhattan. Thats the kind secret but not so secret after time passed optimus prime is.

The problem with this analogy is that there was never a global thermonuclear holocaust between 1945 and now. An apocalypse would theoretically make information difficult to propagate around the world, or in this case, the mainland USA.

That’s not to say that it isn’t possible that the brotherhood could learn about a project like this by piecing together clues they find from ancient ruins they explore, but Bethesda never states nor implies that this was the case.

 

[Norzan]

Theres nothing, logically speaking, to say a group dedicated to hunting down prewar knowledge, super weapon, etc... can not know about a continental siege weapon like optimus prime at pentagon, washington dc. Its a fucking big engineering project, not a lab research or design problem. Lots people and departments are involved. Lots of materials and people will be transfered from one place to another in the cause of making and fixing it.

Yes, because a dying faction would totally have resources to send a bunch of people to know where Liberty Prime is. That is totally not stupid.

And of course there's media in the Fallout universe, an universe that took an huge atomic apocalypse to the face, cutting ways for people to talk with each other through long distances. That isn't totally why BoS even sent people to the Midwest to know if they were alive. Because if information propogated as fast you claim it does, they wouldn't even need to know if the Midwest BoS is alive.

Jesus, these arguments. The fact that you have to have to come up with stuff like that is proof that the game is a poorly written mess. These are things that should be explained to the player and not leave it in the air how it happened. There's an huge difference between leaving something somewhat ambiguous on how a few things happened and not knowing how any of it even happened on a basic level.

Just because you are being dumb doesnt mean everyone else need to be at your level.

Dumbo is boring.

Just the sheer irony, it's too funny.