Emil Pagliarulo answers some questions on BGSF

[The Dutch Ghost]

Well as I wrote in another topic, most of the time when you get the option to be evil in a RPG it either makes you a murdering maniac or an extortioner.

Where is the sophisticated evil/self interest?
Not all 'evil' people are out to kill others as if it was a task on a list to do each day.

* * * *

Daily schedule for September 5th 2008

08:00 - Wake up, have breakfast, shower, dress

09:00 - Kill neighbors' daughter to show how evil I am.

10:00 - ...

 

[Public]

Meh, I think that's actually chaotic evil, mindless berserker. The most shallow way of being "evil".

It is also, sadly, the way most games approach evil. It would be disappointing if Fallout 3 goes down that same path.

Today developers see being "evil" is to kill a lot of people I guess.
This is cheap evil. Simple is to kill someone, but harder to torture him phisically and eve more to torture someone mentaly- that's the worse one! Just like Black commented, making someone to sacrifice him/herself, or like make someone to believe he's/she's a murderer of his own family, ending up in an asylum taking drugs for the rest of his/her life.

 

[sarfa]

GIVE MONEY TO CHURCH!?!!11

What the fucking hell? This is Baldur's Gate all over again.
And not to mention the stupidity in itself.

In real life disaster areas churches tend to end up supporting those who are suffering as a result, and are often the front line of any relief operation. This tends to be the case for the long term relief operation as well (many of which do last years), and often it (temporarily) becomes the primary purpose of the building and those who work there.

It wouldn't surprise me in the length of time were talking about since the war in Fallout 3 for that to simply become habit and the Church to basically become a building where those who require help (Medical, supplies, whatever) could go to to get it, hence giving money to the church so they have the funds to do this would be a 'good act', as it is indirectly helping all those who are nearby.

 

[Ausir]

But it probably works only with Christian churches in the game. I doubt there is an option to donate money to e.g. the Children of Atom (bomb cult) for good karma.

 

[Public]

Christians in Fallout?

 

[Pope Viper]

Well as I wrote in another topic, most of the time when you get the option to be evil in a RPG it either makes you a murdering maniac or an extortioner.

Where is the sophisticated evil/self interest?
Not all 'evil' people are out to kill others as if it was a task on a list to do each day.

* * * *

Daily schedule for September 5th 2008

08:00 - Wake up, have breakfast, shower, dress

09:00 - Kill neighbors' daughter to show how evil I am.

10:00 - ...

I highly approve of this schedule.

 

[cronicler]

Sigh... Another fantasy idea comes into the game. Tested and puked over one that is. There has been more than a few games where you could/had to donate cash to so called "religious" organisations. Excuse me but this si just the thing that caused a man called (Edit Marthin Luther to revolt against the Curch of Rome remember? Selling absolution for your sins.

Then again without seeing how this will be really implemented in the game. It could be done in a decent way. (Maybe being a charity piggybank makes your reputation to become positive while your karma stays the same evil.... i dont know)

Edit1: Oops sorry
Edit: Here is my rant about the "Evil" in the general gaming industry. I miss the Nameless One of Questionable Parenthood...
*http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44658

 

[Texas Renegade]

That would be Martin Luther....Martin Luther King had nothing to do with it.

 

[PaladinHeart]

In regards to whether or not it should increase karma for donating to a Church, it depends really.

Since karma is basically how good or evil your character is, this is really subjective. If your character thinks they're doing something good, then shouldn't this increase their karma?

As far as the donating to a Church goes, it could be a church supporting a new super mutant master for all we know, but if the PC character thinks they're doing something good, then it should be positive karma.

If you do something good, and then something randomly evil, like saving a child and then killing their family.. that seems fairly evil to me.

It seems ludicrous that in most games you can simply be really really good and get a halo/glow/whatever, and then be really evil and get your dark aura, horns, bla bla.. and then go back to being good and get your halo again? I think that once your karma reaches a certain positive or negative level, that it should be impossible to do a complete turnaround. Here is an interesting method, at least IMO:

You can do good or bad deeds, but once your karma reaches negative or positive, your next choice will be character defining if you make an opposing choice. If your karma is relatively high, -100 or +100, and you do an opposing action, then the game points out, before you do this, that it will permanently alter your character. If you have +100 or more, then it will permanently lock your karma at -1 and you won't ever have the option of performing any good deeds, or get any good choices in dialogue. All your options will be evil. If you do a good deed with -100 or less karma, then it would be the opposite, only letting you have good options in dialogue, not allowing you to kill non-hostiles, etc... due to your change of heart. If you keep your karma between +99 and -99, then you will continue to be able to do as many good and/or bad deeds as you wish, being a completely chaotic neutral character.

What if I think religion is evil?

"Think"!?!

"Know" would be more like it, but I wanted to sound tolerant.

I reported this, but got a strike for "spamming the report button".

Are you saying it's okay to post stuff like "teaching is evil" or "fighting is evil" or even something like "mail is evil"? From the statement you can derive that "someone who teaches is evil" and therefore you'd be saying "all teachers are evil".

So are you saying "all Christians are evil"?

Yeah, I know, this isn't a democracy but you're always saying you don't allow personal insults here so as not to get into a flame war. I know you can break the rules yourself, since you're an admin, but won't other members think something is okay to say if an admin is also saying it?

I could say "administration is evil" which also means "all administrators are evil" and I would be making a huge blanket statement, even meaning "Brother None is evil". It's a laughably childish insult, to be honest, but it's still an insult.

Well actually some people would consider it a compliment to be called evil. x]

 

[Ureshi]

If this is role-playing I'm eating my hat.

Well at least you have a lot of hats to eat in Failout 3, because... you know... OMG!! HATZZZ!!

 

[Brother None]

I reported this, but got a strike for "spamming the report button".

Because you reported three posts in a row. Fairly unnecessary, no?

So are you saying "all Christians are evil"?

I think you're over-analyzing. A blanket statement about religion in general hardly insults all people who are religious. Moreover, we can't really filter insults like that especially if they're blanket statements, since the nature of religion is a fair point of debate (unlike, say, whether black people or homosexuals are good or evil)

Besides, Ausir wasn't exactly confrontational or explicit about it, was he?

you don't allow personal insults here so as not to get into a flame war. I know you can break the rules yourself, since you're an admin, but won't other members think something is okay to say if an admin is also saying it?

What admin? Ausir said it, not me, my "think?!" wasn't actually intended the way Ausir interpreted it, it was actually a reference to recent debates on how it's best no to think about flaws because they go away if you don't think about them.

Also, an insult has to be directed at an individual to be a personal insult.

 

[Ausir]

What BN said.

Also,

Since karma is basically how good or evil your character is, this is really subjective. If your character thinks they're doing something good, then shouldn't this increase their karma?

As far as the donating to a Church goes, it could be a church supporting a new super mutant master for all we know, but if the PC character thinks they're doing something good, then it should be positive karma.

But what if I want my character to be an atheist who considers religion evil? It is subjective, but the game's Karma system considers religion to be objectively good, which is what I object to.

 

[TheGM]

Meh, I think that's actually chaotic evil, mindless berserker. The most shallow way of being "evil".

It is also, sadly, the way most games approach evil. It would be disappointing if Fallout 3 goes down that same path.

Today developers see being "evil" is to kill a lot of people I guess.
This is cheap evil. Simple is to kill someone, but harder to torture him phisically and eve more to torture someone mentaly- that's the worse one! Just like Black commented, making someone to sacrifice him/herself, or like make someone to believe he's/she's a murderer of his own family, ending up in an asylum taking drugs for the rest of his/her life.

I for one would love to have the ability to piss in the town's water supply.

Thats is fucking evil right there.

Not I'm gonna kill some fools, to messy. Naw I just releaved myself in your drinking water.

Or pour a gallon of rad scorpion juice into it

 

[PaladinHeart]

It depends on what your character knows and how they act upon it.

Killing Children of the Cathedral followers in Fallout 1, for example, should be considered an act of evil if they're defenseless and/or not actively threatening you. Even moreso if they don't realize that their organization is just a cover for the master and his super mutant army.

If someone in the game tells you that person A has killed innocents B, C, and D, and you go and kill person A based on this information, then you should get bad or good karma based on what your character does with this information. If you kill person A without talking with them first, then I think this shouldn't affect your karma either way. Playing like this though, should eventually give you a Karma reputation of:

Assassin: Judge, jury, and executioner. Honorable people are less likely to trust you, but if someone needs someone killed without many questions, they know you're a reliable killer.

An honorable person would normally confront person A. At this point if they attack you or admit to their crime, then you should get good karma for killing them.

If they don't admit to their crime, or even say that the person who wanted you to kill them, is the guilty party, then of course I think there should be an expansive quest to find out what actually happened.

So I guess, in a way, it isn't entirely subjective. If you kill a peaceful Super Mutant just because you think all Super Mutants are evil, then you shouldn't get good karma. That's just crazy.

The game could always give you a set of questions at the beginning of the game to determine what you think is right or wrong. x]

It'd be crazy though. Imagine someone with angelic karma from blowing up Megaton, and also from killing everyone in Tenpenny tower, just because their belief was they all deserved to die.

 

[Ausir]

Religion is much more of a controversial topic than murder and I find the "religion is good" stance of the FO3 devs disappointing (putting my personal views aside, "all religion is bad" would probably be equally out of place).

 

[Brother None]

This is exactly why the karma mechanic never really worked. It's too ambiguous between reputation and a kind of oblique, irrelevant "karmic cycle", which is more fitting for Torment than Fallout

 

[TheGM]

Religion is much more of a controversial topic than murder and I find the "religion is good" stance of the FO3 devs disappointing (putting my personal views aside, "all religion is bad" would probably be equally out of place).

Religion is ok. Has a bad habit of morons fucking up good ideas though.

 

[Ausir]

I'd like to see it replaced by a pure reputation system. I like the Age of Decadence one, for example.

Religion is ok. Has a bad habit of morons fucking up good ideas though.

From my perspective, morons fucking up good ideas is more of a rule than an exception as far as religions go.

 

[Texas Renegade]

Geez he said donate money to churches. He didn't say relegion was good.

But giving money to churches should be a good act, if they are going to use it to help other people.

It isn't, you go to church and pray and you get good karma.

What does it matter if you believe in a churches relegion or not, if you give them money to help other people it is a good act irregardless of the relegion involved.

If I give money to a sinagoog to help flood victims from the latest hurricane, me not being or being jewish has no bearing on the situation, it is a good act.

 

[Ausir]

What does it matter if you believe in a churches relegion or not, if you give them money to help other people it is a good act regardless of the relegion involved.

Wanna bet that this mechanic works only in Christian churches, and not, say, Children of the Atom?