Fallout: New Vegas Lonesome Road Reviews Round-up #2

Obsidian pushes this angle a lot to but the argument makes no sense, the Legion and House have inherent problems as organizations, NCR doesn't, if you remove the Legion you alleviate all the pressure on NCR that keeps it from their oft-critized failings (being overstretched, not guarding trade routes)

This, so much. People seem to forget NCR is fighting a war against a nation at least as big as itself, far away from home at that. Of course there's going to be loads of logistical problems, even moreso if one of your supply routes gets friggin nuked. Yet somehow this makes the very existence of the Republic bad, they are all corrupt and inefficient and imperialistic (despite, you know, protecting Vegas from an army of slavers, led by sociopaths and a megalomaniac, and still getting shit from the locals for it). Hell, many of the projects giving a better life to people in Vegas (the water pipes, merchants, communal farms) were introduced by NCR. Even in a relatively tricky position, they still manage to get things done. There are corrupt individuals, of course, such as Contreras and Alice McLafferty, and obvious problems are led to rest, such as the Powder Gangers and the Deathclaws on the High 15, but that's just comes with the dire situation they are in. The sole reason the Legion doesn't have such problems is that we don't see any of their territory.

What also angers me a bit is how their leadership was conceived. Sawyer pretty much stated Oliver is a patchwork of cliche American gung-ho generals, such as Patton (as if his outfit and attitude weren't enough), without any of the skill they had. He pretty much exists to partly justify an army with guns losing to slaves with machetes. He is a caricature. I expected more from Obsidian.

The NCR isn't in control, and what's more it's made painfully clear that all roads pass through Vegas. Should NCR leave, New Vegas is suddenly left with everyone whose made a home there as well as anyone who wishes to continue trading north and east.

Too bad the people in the East are murderous assholes who hate House if he wins and don't want to trade anyway, and that the people in the North have been massacred at the orders of said assholes in the East. People don't make a home in New Vegas, they come either because the army needs them or to experience the Strip. Both will leave if House wins, either the army is driven off or it no longer patrols the routes the second group uses to actually go to New Vegas.

Whether house deserves to be put out of play is irrelevant. Whether they're able to remove him is what matters. And again for however much of that falls on contrivances of the writers, that seems contingent on the courier. House isn't a parasite - he knows what he has and he knows how much both sides want it. He's willing to play them off one another until neither side is left strong enough to oppose him. How difficult is that to comprehend?

I perfectly understood he is an egoistical ass who puts his own interests before those of the people living in his own city, thank you. And his brilliant plan doesn't work great, because all he does is weaken NCR while the Legion grows stronger. Had he not found his precious Chip, the War could have either dragged down for a long time, or ended in Legion victory, which is kinda bad for him and New Vegas.

The restrictive treaty he put the NCR under was with the understanding that NCR would never have signed it were they not under duress. Have we played the same game here? NCR doesn't keep alliances any better than Caesar's Legion- that is to say it takes what it wants, and breaks treaties, promises, and simply subsumes those cultures it meets when it feels it's advantageous. The NCR is a heavy-handed(somewhat slanted) allegory to the United States' and its policies of colonialism throughout the latter half of the nineteenth century and beyond. It's kinder on the face but at heart no less ruthless than the Legion or any other expansive power.

And yet, I just gave 4 examples of factions aiding NCR and not being backstabbed afterwards. I could also say that towns like Primm and Goodsprings prosper under NCR rule. For all that talk about how expansionist they are (by the way, I never heard of American colonialists building facilities for the Natives while leaving them well enough alone AND fighting off a faction wanting to enslave them), they sure seem to tolerate other powers if said powers don't start screwing over them beforehand. And then they complain when the Bear bites back. Compare with the Legion, which at best enslaves ''most'' of the Mojave, razes towns like Primm and Novac, and brutally assimilates it's allies (or tries to, at any rate, go Boomers).
 
Ilosar said:
And yet, I just gave 4 examples of factions aiding NCR and not being backstabbed afterwards. I could also say that towns like Primm and Goodsprings prosper under NCR rule.

Actually Goodsprings really thrive with Independent Vegas, not NCR.

I still think Independent is the better solution, although, is a long term solution.
No nation build itself in one day and a lot of problems will arise after declaring Vegas independent.

But if you take me the independent way I would say NCR is the better solution when weighing the cons and pros.
I have a CL playthrough for roleplay purposes, but I can't stand by them, is the shite solution of all, even House is better (wich is not a compliment).

BTW Ilsar, your avatar is an SS-19 Satan ICBM?
 
Per the beginning of the game Vegas lies directly on the path north to New Canaan as well as east into the lands held by the Legion. Now whether or not one sides with the Legion -there is trade back and forth from the east(the traders which trade with and through the Legion) which filters through the Mojave and then back to the west and vice versa. It’s why you see many of the folk within the Mojave accepting Legion scrip as well as NCR.

Part of the trade that sustains Vegas comes from NCR. Part of. No, the Mojave won’t sustain Vegas entirely, just as in turn the NCR isn’t able to sustain itself with its current internal strife. It’s become more aggressive, more expansionist for that reason.

And of course Vegas isn’t Reno. It sets between the NCR and further expansion east and north as well as resources it wants. Reno is a dive. It’s a collective of junkies, criminals, and drug pushers within a ruined city. So are parts of Vegas, admittedly, but even so, Reno’s well within NCR’s borders and so subject to the same internal pressures as the rest of the NCR. And that’s what’s more than a bit off with it.

Vegas is on the front lines, or near enough as to come to no difference. This comes to a time -fictional though it is- when caravans and troop movements are still run largely on foot. Rather than having to rotate troops back to Reno for leave they keep them near where they’re needed most. If for that reasoning alone Vegas is far from unnecessary. Reno’s much farther off.

House’s ambitions lay beyond simple trade. He’s selling ideas, and Vegas is one of them. The strip is kept exclusive, for that exclusivity is what keeps it desirable. For everyone other, there is Westside, Freeside, and Northside.

Now, should he open the strip proper- allow it to become overpopulated- ridden with crime and disease, shot up and defaced after the fashion of Reno? Should he, then much of what he’d squired away for over two hundred years, the mystique that had kept Vegas worthwhile for those willing and able to pay their way with a caravan, and then to pass within the strip would come to naught.

The notion that casinos, and gambling, and entertainment would count for so much might seem laughable to you or I from our perspectives. Yet viewed from that of someone living within the setting, tell of a place where you have all those things, not within the slums of Reno, but where much of what was the old world is preserved? Such that it lights the sky for miles around? In many ways that’s near to priceless- it’s the stuff of dreams. Whether or not those dreams hold true for those who make the journey is another matter. It’s enough that it calls so many of them to it, war or no. And none of the cattle barons, none of the weapons merchants, none of the entertainers, nor the movements such as the Children of the Apocalypse wish to squander whatever opportunities might come from those dreams. To that end I haven’t misunderstood, I simply have a differing opinion from you.

And no, removing the Legion doesn’t necessarily rectify NCR’s failings. NCR is a corrupt, top-heavy, power filled with good, bad, and ordinary folk as any widespread nation is. Yet it’s that centralised seat of governance, the rotten core which ensures that the wider it expands the further corrupt, the further out of touch, and further detached from the truths of human sufferings the NCR’s government, and by extension, its folk, become.

Folk to the heart of NCR, those without relatives serving, see the fight for the dam as a drain on the Republic and nothing more. They go about their lives and wonder why levies have risen, why goods cost more, why they haven’t been given victory, and why they haven’t seen the water, food, or electrics they were promised for supporting their politicians’ calls for war and the eventual annexation of the territory. They toil, and play, and live and wonder why it isn’t it over yet. In that way, even the best of nations, with the best of folk living within them are parties to evils unknown committed in their names.

NCR isn’t unquestionably the best option for the Mojave as it hasn’t necessarily got the region’s folk, including those who’ve emigrated there from the west, at heart. There are good souls, yes, troopers on the ground who see life to the Mojave for what it is and who strive to make a difference, but they are individuals whose voices largely go unheard. You have to ask yourself – is NCR simply a conqueror with a different sales pitch, or is it truly pursuing engagement for the well of the region? There’s a difference. It’s slight, yet it’s there even so. And it matters.

As to your question of trade route towns- For our world, the route was there from what was old Mexico; through Texas – west to California and then North toward Utah. Vegas was an oasis - due to the natural springs found near it. Locations such as the Mormon fort and Good springs lie to the heart of that route. The beginnings for Vegas the gambling hub ironically came with American annexation, and later the coming of the railroads and the highways. Gambling itself came about toward the end of the prohibition era when it was legalised. The rest was a combination of that continued prosperity, proximity to the –depression/post-depression public works building of Hoover dam, and later the burgeoning Atomics projects near it. But with those come and gone, gambling, entertainment, and tourism reasserted themselves as its greatest attractions. Beyond that you come to the fifties and early sixties where Fallout’s and our timeline diverge.
So again to the assertions of what’s ‘of value’ within the strip- I’ve answered that above. Beyond that we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

For the other stuff, the trouble with saying the folk to the east are simply murderous is that they’re murderers, yes, but in partly the same fashion which NCR is murderous should you deny them something they want. I don’t espouse the Legion’s methods/culture –culling the old, the infirm, and it’s stances toward women and children, but whether to the long run or the short run, the ends given from both factions are the same should you cross or slight them. NCR takes a bit more care in hiding what it’s done, and showing shame should it come caught out- as it was to Bitter Springs; one of the few redeeming aspects of politics within the Republic. Though it owes that more to the collective conscience of the populace and the cynicism of its governors.

As to House’s rotten plan -courier willing, he finds the chip even so, doesn’t he? For the Legion, assuming the courier never intervenes on its behalf, they set no better off than the NCR. Caesar’s ‘empire,’ much more so than the Republic or even House’s new Vegas, is held together by force of personality- Caesar’s charisma and wisdom- such as it is. Assuming he perishes from his condition, the Legion then slowly collapses of its own weight. Lanius is a brute, but without the knowledge, charisma, or tact with which Caesar forged his empire, he doesn’t have much of a future. His legionnaires will fear him, yes, but never so much revere him. His days are limited to what time he has before he’s either too old, too slow, or he’s slain one too many of his own men for not measuring up. And once he’s taken his knife(knives) to the back and ended you have naught but the same cycle of infighting and assassination which helped to tear old Rome apart.

To your four examples, I answered some of those with my reply to Brothernone. As to any of them prospering -no more than they might have under other regimes. What more it’s stated within the game they come to prospering in spite of the NCR. Good springs, and Primm got nothing but levied. Nipton was left for burned. Novac seems an aberration as it was indeed sacked -even though my character scoured Cottonwood Cove and all the lands which laid between them of Legion. Jacobstown was nearly -or fully owing to how the courier sorted it- destroyed by the instigation of a band of mercenaries with NCR connections.

The heart of this back and forth to me, as was said above- is that there is no ideal solution. None of the three factions- House, Caesar, or NCR are innocent or necessarily better than the others. And even declaring for yourself/Yesman has its own peculiar worries. Each choice has its darker and lighter sides and it comes down to what the individual –the courier/player is willing to accept. To the true world would I side with the Legion? Of course no! Yet within the setting of the game, from the character’s unique perspective, the decision isn’t so cut and clean. To my mind that feeling of ambiguity was exceptionally well done within the core of New Vegas. It’s why I chose to offer my differing opinions.

Now, that said, should either of you wish to continue beating your chests to assert which of *your* true world moralities and economics are the soundest, and which in-game decisions are unequivocally so based on such? Should it make you feel any better, have on then. I don’t give a toss.

For Devil-

So it was. Guilty for the oversight, and for that nit I stand before you corrected. Thanks to you for pointing it out.
 
It’s why you see many of the folk within the Mojave accepting Legion scrip as well as NCR.

No, it's because their trade routes are safe (somehow, despite being described as a ''roving army'', but I digress) and because their currency is hard silver/gold, while NCR's paper money is almost worthless after it's gold reserves were bombed. We see exactly one trader within Legion territory, a far cry from the supply routes going to NCR, under the watch of huge outfits such as Crimson Caravans.

the Mojave won’t sustain Vegas entirely, just as in turn the NCR isn’t able to sustain itself with its current internal strife. It’s become more aggressive, more expansionist for that reason.

All nations seek to expand, it's only natural. Agressive? Apart from giving the Khans what they deserved, I don't see anything like delibetare agression on anybody. Also, again, a long, bloody war on a distant front with little returns (thanks partly to House) tends to lead to internal problems, it doesn't mean the faction sucks at it's core.

Rather than having to rotate troops back to Reno for leave they keep them near where they’re needed most. If for that reasoning alone Vegas is far from unnecessary. Reno’s much farther off.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here. Reno is in California, and is kept under control by local families. Vegas is very far away in central Nevada, and the routes to go there are very dangerous. How a dude in a suit is supposed to make a voyage armed caravans and NCR soldiers find dangerous is beyond me.

House’s ambitions lay beyond simple trade. He’s selling ideas, and Vegas is one of them. The strip is kept exclusive, for that exclusivity is what keeps it desirable. For everyone other, there is Westside, Freeside, and Northside.

Translation; he has his little club of less ingrate than others, the rest can go screw themselves for all he cares. You want this man to govern a nation?

The notion that casinos, and gambling, and entertainment would count for so much might seem laughable to you or I from our perspectives. Yet viewed from that of someone living within the setting, tell of a place where you have all those things, not within the slums of Reno, but where much of what was the old world is preserved? Such that it lights the sky for miles around? In many ways that’s near to priceless- it’s the stuff of dreams. Whether or not those dreams hold true for those who make the journey is another matter. It’s enough that it calls so many of them to it, war or no. And none of the cattle barons, none of the weapons merchants, none of the entertainers, nor the movements such as the Children of the Apocalypse wish to squander whatever opportunities might come from those dreams. To that end I haven’t misunderstood, I simply have a differing opinion from you.

Except real-life Vegas is easy to access, is actually good-looking, doesn't have dangerous slums aurrounding it, and isin't a day away from a bloody war zone.

And no, removing the Legion doesn’t necessarily rectify NCR’s failings. NCR is a corrupt, top-heavy, power filled with good, bad, and ordinary folk as any widespread nation is. Yet it’s that centralised seat of governance, the rotten core which ensures that the wider it expands the further corrupt, the further out of touch, and further detached from the truths of human sufferings the NCR’s government, and by extension, its folk, become.

Evidence badly needed. How can an out of touch government establish running water, electricity, and communal farming for people not even under their jurisdiction? You still haven't adressed that NCR did far more than House for the people of New Vegas who aren't there to fuck whores.

is NCR simply a conqueror with a different sales pitch, or is it truly pursuing engagement for the well of the region? There’s a difference. It’s slight, yet it’s there even so. And it matters.

Refer to my above statement.

So again to the assertions of what’s ‘of value’ within the strip- I’ve answered that above. Beyond that we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

But this is not the same situation, there's no huge boom towards California to justify the existence of Vegas. It was born because it was a stop on the routes; yet, for everybody concerned, Vegas is now the end of a route, a divide between NCR and the Legion. There is no trade going beyond Vegas, it just goes within.

For the other stuff, the trouble with saying the folk to the east are simply murderous is that they’re murderers, yes, but in partly the same fashion which NCR is murderous should you deny them something they want.

Blatant lies. NCR doesn't go around employing terror tactics and razing villages. NCR doesn't enslave defeated foes and kill the rest. As you yourself pointed out, it doesn't cull the ''weak'' and eldery and reduce women to second-class citizens for ideological reasons. The Legion won't even wait until you refuse them something; they just want you either dead or in the fold. As evidenced in-game, if you do all right by them NCR does all right by you, something any smart government does. Bitter Springs is the exception, and that's because those were the Great Khans, who are the very definition of worthless tossers anyway.


As to House’s rotten plan -courier willing, he finds the chip even so, doesn’t he?

Ha, yes. Courier willing. Seems like a bad idea for you grand master plan of geniusness to rely on a wild card, no?

To your four examples, I answered some of those with my reply to Brothernone. As to any of them prospering -no more than they might have under other regimes. What more it’s stated within the game they come to prospering in spite of the NCR. Good springs, and Primm got nothing but levied. Nipton was left for burned. Novac seems an aberration as it was indeed sacked -even though my character scoured Cottonwood Cove and all the lands which laid between them of Legion. Jacobstown was nearly -or fully owing to how the courier sorted it- destroyed by the instigation of a band of mercenaries with NCR connections.

Eh? Goodsprings is better under independant, yes. But Primm ''benefit greatly from increased protection and merchant traffic''. Nipton was burned before the game even started, and Novac recovers if you aid the Bright Followers regardless of faction, so long as it's not Legion. The mercs were under contracts from Brahmin Barons, and can be persuaded away with relative ease. I don't see agressiv and evil expansionism here, sorry.

The heart of this back and forth to me, as was said above- is that there is no ideal solution. None of the three factions- House, Caesar, or NCR are innocent or necessarily better than the others. And even declaring for yourself/Yesman has its own peculiar worries. Each choice has its darker and lighter sides and it comes down to what the individual –the courier/player is willing to accept. To the true world would I side with the Legion? Of course no! Yet within the setting of the game, from the character’s unique perspective, the decision isn’t so cut and clean. To my mind that feeling of ambiguity was exceptionally well done within the core of New Vegas. It’s why I chose to offer my differing opinions.

Good for you, because for me it wasn't. The Legion is nothing but murderers and rapists using excuses such as ''weakness'' and ''oh, but we keep people safe! despite, you know, enslaving them'' to justify their conquest. House is a deluded, autocratic maniac who relies on outlandish plans and whose priority is to send people in space. Yes Man can be a good ending, or an horrible one, depending on the Courier. None of them bring the stability, safety, and responsibility the Wasteland needs after 200 years of constant warfare, imo.
 
Ilosar said:
You mean the water and electricity ran and maintained by NCR engineers? Where will he find sufficient staff to do the same (because his robots are solely build for wars, and his other underlings are creepy masked freaks, mafiosi and Frank Sinatra wannabees)?

The people from Freeside, Westside, the squatters can't learn? The NCR engineers can't be hired at a higher price? Securitrons don't have real hands but they can interface with computers.

And who will he sell electricity to, the Legion?

The NCR. He even make you stamp a list with the prices. If you think the NCR wouldn't buy valuable resources like those just because House "stole" them you are crazy.

He needs lots of it himself to power his city and his robots.

He is allowed to use 5% of the elctricity produced by the dam during the game and he says that is more than enough.

Quarry Junction is about the only place that seems to produce anything in the region,

So?
 
Iozeph said:
Per the beginning of the game Vegas lies directly on the path north to New Canaan as well as east into the lands held by the Legion.

New Canaan is gone. The Legions aren't much of trade partner, especially if the area is held by the NCR, as House plans.

Iozeph said:
No, the Mojave won’t sustain Vegas entirely, just as in turn the NCR isn’t able to sustain itself with its current internal strife.

What are you basing this on? What major, existence-threatening problems does the NCR have other than the Legion? Even the BoS poses no serious threat.

Iozeph said:
It’s a collective of junkies, criminals, and drug pushers within a ruined city.

That doesn't negate that Reno already fulfills the need you state Vegas is needed for. The Fallout economy isn't going to be developed enough to support even one, let alone multiple gambling-only towns. The military going on shore leave is hardly going to be enough.

Iozeph said:
Now, should he open the strip proper

No, he should extend services and protection to traders and caravan, and allow the Strip to be more than just a home for the incredibly rare rich folk to visit casinos. On the one hand, you can build an economic center. On the other, you have a gambling town.

The thing is, there's a rich history of the value of protected towns, and the way outskirts develop, but Obsidian simply got it wrong. Vault City in Fallout 2 was a great example of how a protected, exclusive town works, because it has enough people, provides services, trades with others and has the power to protect itself. New Vegas lacks people and services.

Iozeph said:
In many ways that’s near to priceless- it’s the stuff of dreams.

Dreams and $2 will buy me a cup of coffee. This is the post-apocalypse we're talking about, not Disney world.

Iozeph said:
NCR is a corrupt, top-heavy, power filled with good, bad, and ordinary folk as any widespread nation is.

Yeah, that's great. None of that is a structural failing. The game never shows us anything that is actually significantly wrong with the NCR. The only significant problem they have that keep them from making everyone's lives better is the Legion.

This is a key storytelling failing. The whole thing with the NCR and the Legion is a huge violation of "show, don't tell". We're never shown the Legion is a functioning nation, we're just told it is, all we see are blood-thirsty crazy people. Same for the NCR, it's mentioned it's corrupt and has problems, but none of them ever show up in any significant sense. That just doesn't work.

Iozeph said:
In that way, even the best of nations, with the best of folk living within them are parties to evils unknown committed in their names.

Who cares? No one ever said it's perfect, but when there's no other option even remotely close to as good as the NCR, it doesn't matter.

Iozeph said:
There’s a difference.

Not really. I couldn't care less about their exact intent. They are making people's lives better, and they're the only one.

Iozeph said:
As to your question of trade route towns

It was a rhetoric question, I am perfectly familiar with Vegas' history, and my point - which you completely missed - was that it didn't start out as a pure gambling town, because even travel-heavy economic systems with good sources of revenue (gold, trade) did not support such a town, only a later, developed economy could. For all intents and purposes, the Mojave is still a frontier economy, and such economies can not support a "town" made up of three huge casinos. It's ridiculous.

Iozeph said:
The heart of this back and forth to me, as was said above- is that there is no ideal solution.

"Ideal"? No one said there is an ideal solution, just that the balance is incredibly skewed to the NCR, simply because House's plan is stupid and the Legion is insane. It isn't a grey area of choice because Obsidian failed to properly balance the factions.

Iozeph said:
Now, that said, should either of you wish to continue beating your chests to assert which of *your* true world moralities and economics are the soundest, and which in-game decisions are unequivocally so based on such? Should it make you feel any better, have on then. I don’t give a toss.

Take it easy.
 
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