Fallout: New Vegas preview

bhlaab said:
sarfa said:
bhlaab said:
Per said:
Epic moments, like Liberty Primes trip through DC, will litter the critical path.
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Ugghhnnnn I HATE "epic moments"
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Every genre has it's own epic- getting the right scale of epic for the genre is the problem. For some genre's the right scale of epic is actually rather small- only fantasy and anime inspired sci fi (sic) can get away with one hero versus a giant monster for instance.

That is to say- Fallout can have epic moments, but it's important for it to fit into the setting and the story being told.

Games reviewers constantly rat on certain games and series for having long cutscenes or conversations with NPCs (Metal Gear gets a lot of this) on the basis that it's a game not a movie or a novel. Personally, no matter how convoluted and silly the plot is, a long time of me not playing because I'm getting exposition is much better than a protracted period of me not playing because all there is to do at this bit is watch the invincible giant robot kill everything while the player character walks slowly behind it.
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Fallout's "epic" moments are either entirely player-created (such as taking on the militant LA Boneyard guards or Metzger's slavers in the Den) or emotionally understated such as coming face to face with the Master.

What I fear is large scripted sequences where the whole idea is "watch the cool pssudo-cutscene we made!" instead of playing the game. Like Liberty Prime kicking ass while the player stares down at his or her shoelaces, or the battle outside of Galaxy News Radio where you're forced to make buddies with the BoS and take down the behemoth with a fatman. These steal agency away from the player simply because the game momentarily feels like it wants to look cool instead of being well designed or fun to play.
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that's a little harsh. I mean, of course such sequences are there to make you go "wow" or whatever, but I don't really see a problem with that. as long as I remain in control of my character and what happens is the consequence of my own actions I think it's great.
 
This is the Fallout game that Chris Avellone and Josh Sawyer wanted to make.
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I still rather wish that it was Van Buren they wanted to make.

New Vegas feels more of an attempt by them to do at least a few of things they had planned for Van Buren but heavily scaled down.
 
QOUTE PYRAMIDE

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't both the Liberty Prime and Behemoth fights "choices" involve something along the lines of: Do this or you can't progress with the main story? You don't really get a choice to NOT side with the BoS and let them just take down the Behemoth themselves do you? And its not like you can just shoot the BoS in the back, loot their items, and flee leaving 3dog to fend off the behemoth using his oratory skills. Also the Behemoth fight more so than the Liberty Prime release, is NOT a consequence of your actions. It was something you had zero control over happening, it happens regardless of what actions in the wasteland you take. You didn't create the behemoth, nor did you set it upon GNR
 
Well you could possibly skip the whole GNR thing. It's not necessary to complete the primary quest. Kinda like how you don't have to do the water chip thing in Fallout 1.

But it would have been nice if you could just avoid the behemoth and sneak in the building without having to fight it. That's naturally what most people would try to do if they can't find the Fatman (I've never actually found it there myself.. lol), or after finding out the behemoth can kill you with one hit.

(... actually I'm not entirely sure I've ever even used the Fatman in Fallout 3)
 
So what? If you really have a problem with doing that, then just go to Rivet City right after you get out of the vault. Seriously. So everything in the game has to be a result of your actions, and you have to have the option of being able to react in any way possible? In life, you don't really control what happens to you, and you don't have much control of how you respond. A guy randomly comes up to you with a gun and says "Gimme yo wallet", you either give it to him, get shot, or use your FBI skills to take him down.... right.... Point is, just like life, there are things in video games that just happen, and since they don't have unlimited time and resources, they may need to make one preset path that needs to be taken. But like I said, you can just go to Rivet City.
 
NiRv4n4 said:
So everything in the game has to be a result of your actions, and you have to have the option of being able to react in any way possible? In life, you don't really control what happens to you, [...]
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In Fallout 1 and 2, it was possible. These games just got very few fixed points which have been in Fallout: Blow up Mariposa and blow up the cathedral. Everything else was non-solid and you could do what you wanted to. In Fallout 2, the only fixed points have been Vault 13 for the GECK / NavCom parts and the Enclave.

In Fallout 3, you have to find Daddy, you have to visit Rivet City, you have to find the GECK, you have to fix that Water thingy, you have to go to the Brotherhood with some NPCs, you have to do shit for the Brotherhood, you have to go through the city with some robot, you have to fight the enclave,....

Get the picture?
 
You don't really get a choice to NOT side with the BoS and let them just take down the Behemoth themselves do you?
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Why not? In that battle there are a couple of immortal NPCs and a couple of soldiers that the Behemoth can't reach. Just stand there and watch.

Of course it takes a looong time.
 
I'm really looking forward to FNV. It looks like it's shaping up to be the perfect compromise between everything I loved in FO1&2 and FO3 :D
 
Lexx said:
NiRv4n4 said:
So everything in the game has to be a result of your actions, and you have to have the option of being able to react in any way possible? In life, you don't really control what happens to you, [...]
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In Fallout 1 and 2, it was possible. These games just got very few fixed points which have been in Fallout: Blow up Mariposa and blow up the cathedral. Everything else was non-solid and you could do what you wanted to. In Fallout 2, the only fixed points have been Vault 13 for the GECK / NavCom parts and the Enclave.

In Fallout 3, you have to find Daddy, you have to visit Rivet City, you have to find the GECK, you have to fix that Water thingy, you have to go to the Brotherhood with some NPCs, you have to do shit for the Brotherhood, you have to go through the city with some robot, you have to fight the enclave,....

Get the picture?
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Gaming doesn't really permit that kind of freedom anymore. Game play and graphics and all that stuff are becoming more advanced and integral to the industry. Blame it on all the casual gamers if you want. But nowadays, with voice acting and things that contribute to making big games cost big money, the developer must be mindful of their budget and time constraints. Very few studios produce games like they were back in the old days. In the meanwhile, most developers have to settle with a relatively linear storyline in exchange for more freedom in doing the intricate, side quests, game play, graphics, voice actings, etc etc etc.
 
NiRv4n4 said:
Gaming doesn't really permit that kind of freedom anymore. Game play and graphics and all that stuff are becoming more advanced and integral to the industry. Blame it on all the casual gamers if you want. But nowadays, with voice acting and things that contribute to making big games cost big money, the developer must be mindful of their budget and time constraints. Very few studios produce games like they were back in the old days. In the meanwhile, most developers have to settle with a relatively linear storyline in exchange for more freedom in doing the intricate, side quests, game play, graphics, voice actings, etc etc etc.
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I strongly suspect the indie scene will step in to plug that hole over the coming years. We're already seeing great games like Eschalon and Avernum, and with open source engines like FIFE in development I figure it's only a matter of time before we start seeing high quality, indie-made, fallout-like games.
 
NiRv4n4 said:
Gaming doesn't really permit that kind of freedom anymore.
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Cool. So at least you admit that games like Fallout 3 are pretty much a case of one-step-forward, two- (or is it twenty-?) steps-back.
 
NiRv4n4 said:
Gaming doesn't really permit that kind of freedom anymore. Game play and graphics and all that stuff are becoming more advanced and integral to the industry. Blame it on all the casual gamers if you want. But nowadays, with voice acting and things that contribute to making big games cost big money, the developer must be mindful of their budget and time constraints. Very few studios produce games like they were back in the old days. In the meanwhile, most developers have to settle with a relatively linear storyline in exchange for more freedom in doing the intricate, side quests, game play, graphics, voice actings, etc etc etc.
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Freedom of action is a design decision, not a corporate decision. Casual gamers made the GTA franchise famous, so they're obviously not the problem.
 
bhlaab said:
Fallout's "epic" moments are either entirely player-created (such as taking on the militant LA Boneyard guards or Metzger's slavers in the Den) or emotionally understated such as coming face to face with the Master.
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As I said- the right level for epics depends on the story and setting. These are simply two examples of the right kind of epic for Fallout.

bhlaab said:
What I fear is large scripted sequences where the whole idea is "watch the cool pssudo-cutscene we made!" instead of playing the game. Like Liberty Prime kicking ass while the player stares down at his or her shoelaces, or the battle outside of Galaxy News Radio where you're forced to make buddies with the BoS and take down the behemoth with a fatman. These steal agency away from the player simply because the game momentarily feels like it wants to look cool instead of being well designed or fun to play.
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I hate those as well. Even if you accept the basic idea that the Liberty Prime section added something to the game (which I don't), a 30 second cutscene would have sufficed there, and been a lot better than walking behind the bugged robot for- I don't remember how long it takes, but it felt like an eternity.
 
Oh good lord, nothing like the Liberty Prime moment.
I wanted to keep everyone alive so I ran ahead, way ahead of them shooting everything and ended up standing around with the Enclave, an invisible wall stopping me from going any further and they weren't shooting. Finally dumb-bot prime arrives and everyone goes crazy shooting and some explosion sent me through and into a wall were my character was stuck having spasms. Whoa, talk about immersion.
 
I like "epic moments" AS LONG as that isn't another way of saying "crappy minigame". :) We shall see.

Still feeding my cautious optimism. (I don't have a problem with the formula as a whole--F3 always had potential. You can't really play "potential" though. :) )
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
You don't really get a choice to NOT side with the BoS and let them just take down the Behemoth themselves do you?
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Why not? In that battle there are a couple of immortal NPCs and a couple of soldiers that the Behemoth can't reach. Just stand there and watch.

Of course it takes a looong time.
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Actually, I don't remember the immortal NPCs, but I do remember making it through on the second which was after realizing how much damage the behemoth could do even while wearing power armor. I remember finding a perch and taking it out without the fatman. It was a while ago but I remember lucking out and finding a spot where it couldn't touch me. In fact when I realized it couldn't hit me I made it a point to let as many of the BoS die as possible to try and loot their armor. This was all due to poor AI and game design but who knows maybe the safe spots were intentional.
 
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