Fallout rebalance Mod - Metathread

R

Roflcore

Mildly Dipped
Hello

As discussed in this thread here: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47179 I think it is time for a metathread, which brings all the balancemodders to the table.

Why do we want that? A quotes from the old thread explains this really quickly:

Roflcore said:
Dubby said:
It combines all the outstanding plugins currently out, including mods that aren't plugins; and refits each one to work together effectively.
Click to expand...

I already done that several times. Problem is: every day new mods with new features are released. So yes, we need to group the balance guys and make them work together, otherwise we lose a lot of time and the community gets frustrated.
Click to expand...

So here it is. I will sent a message to all the balance modders in the hope they see the benefit of this. I can understand if they want to go on their own.

So the goal of the thread is to organize some sort of rebalance mod which in the end will be "the balance" mod for fallout 3.

The aim is to make Fallout 3:
- more like fallout 1 & 2
- much harder/challanging/deeper
- fun

I'd suggest we start by merging the existing balacingmods and talk about what is a good implitation and what does not fit. So far everything which the great modding community has created is a real good addition, so we don't have to kick anything out, but as mentioned above the balancing mods already overlap. So we need to determin what are the best values in terms of balance and fun.
The modder can also share their ideas and what they are working on, so they don't waste time and resources developing the same sort of mod/feature 3xtimes.
In addition I suggest we suggest useful stuff that would be a good addition to this mod. Please bare in mind that modding tools are limited at this moment and the suggestions should theirfor not "implent gun xyz" or "a lightsabre". In short: not too much dreaming.

So, lets hope this somehow gets going so that we all profit from this.
 
Hello,

Roflcore invited me to join the community here and to build a balancing mod together with you.

I have build my DangerousWasteland mod with the following ideas in my mind:

Increased the damage to the player in the VATS mode to 500 %, because the enemies react much slower in this mode. I think the player should decide in combat if its the right moment to enter the VATS mode or not, because it can be dangerous if a rocket is flying in your direction.

Increased the radiation from different water sources from 0,1 to 0,5, which increases the radiation of the standard water to 10 rads per second, and doubled the rads of drinkable water, because radiation resistance should have a higher effect.

Increased the item repair ability of the NPCs from 54 % to 78 % in Megaton for example, because i think the repair skill is too powerful at the moment and for some items its too difficult to repair them.

Removed the experience bonus for high difficulty levels, because everyone should play on the difficulty they want without worrying about xp.

Carrying weight changed to: 100 + Strength x 20 and action points changed to: 50 + Agility x 5, to make these abilities more important for all characters.

Hit points per experience level changed to: 5, because endurance should be more important for all characters and the game should be more difficult at the higher levels.

Skill points per level changed to: 5 + Intelligence, because it should be more difficult to reach high levels in many skills and to make perks like gun nut more useful.

Increased the SPECIAL requirements of most perks by 1, because the requirements were much higher in Fallout 1 / 2 and higher requirements enable more character builds.

Changed the skill requirements to SPECIAL requirements, because its more difficult to reach high SPECIALs than high skills and to enable more character builds.

Changed the level requirements of some perks, because the requirements of perks like animal friend were too high or intense training too low.

Changed the SPECIAL requirements of some perks, because i think perks like lady killer should have a requirement (charisma 5 in that case).

Reduced the skill bonus of educated to 2 per level and of size matters to 10 per rank to bring the perks inline with the reduced skill points.

Reduced the action point bonus of action girl/boy to 15 to balance the action points in the game for high agility characters.

Increased the hit point bonus of life giver to 50 to make the perk more useful.
 
welcome to NMA, wizard. you guys are all doing amazing fucking work. i don't know modding from a hole in the wall, but i can certainly cheer your asses on and give any feedback.

modding fo3 is one of the biggest pieces of excitement around, imo. once that C.S. comes out (it IS coming methinks, btw) we might just end up with a game that looks and feels like it belongs in the series!

:wink:
 
@__@

hi wizard, nice to see others working towards making fallout 3 a real wasteland game.

i'll (um, try) to list the "features" and changes in the F3C... I will probably miss something, so please bear that in mind. :X

1) VATS modified to 'single' action turn-taking mechanism. combat is more reliable using vats, and accuracy mechanics are recalculated to FEEL more like the 'targeted' shots in the previous fallouts. other cosmetic changes have also been made to vats, to help reduce the intrusiveness of it but still - occasionally - let you see a nice splatterly death of your foe.
2) Action points [both costs based on generic actions in and out of vats, as well as the individual action costs of each weapon] have been rebalanced and engineered to make combat rely on action points. no action points, no fighting. (that mechanism though, will be activated once scripts can be compiled!)
3) The maximum level is upped slightly to 25, but the exp tables and exp rewards from enemies, tasks, and quests, have been rebalanced. You -will- level considerably slower. maximum level in vanilla F3 requires 29,450 XP. Max level in the F3C requires (exactly) 100,000 XP. A vast majority of this is obtained after level 10. The progress "arc" increases alot past level 18~. You will need to do alot of exploring and questing to reach 25. Playing on normal difficulty is x1 xp. Hard & Very Hard increase that by only 5% [each]. Easy & Very Easy however are penalized 25% each.
4) Damage of weapons, damage dealt to player, damage dealt by player, etc. are scaled to balance combat difficulty at normal, with a much harder fight at hard level, and a tremendously challenging fight at very hard.
5) Many, many changes to the mechanics of guns and weapons have been made. For example, pistols are slightly stronger and slightly more accurate than before. Automatic weapons - rifles in particular - are also significantly more accurate in the short to mid ranges. In addition to attacking at long range, the AI is more capable of identifying threats at great distance than before. The sniper rifle has been improved, but is still highly unreliable in close-mid range combat. Energy weapons have been altered somewhat. Laser weapons fire a denser beam that resonates longer - however they DO now fire much more slowly, but do not suffer problems from accuracy or range limitations. Plasma weapons are weaker - damage per shot - than laser weapons, but are still more powerful in combat due to having a much higher rate of fire. Their inaccuracy however limits plasma weapons to short~ range combat. Beware Enclave Soldiers with high energy weaponry skill & plasma weaponry. Certain explosive ordinances have also been improved. There are additional changes that are too numerous to mention in all, lest this message become too long.
6) Bartering and accumulation of wealth has been rebalanced to help ward off the overwhelming wealth players tend to acquire in vanilla F3. The Barter skill is significantly more useful for trading - but only if you do not plan on salvaging equipment from others & using the random loot perks to their fullest. (An adventurer makes a poor merchant, but a thief will make a good merchant.)
7) Bobbleheads have had their positive bonuses permanently removed.
8) Formulas for carry weight & maximum health have been redesigned. On normal difficulty setting, the average opponent will take just as many hits as you will. The effect endurance has on maximum health has also been amplified. Very low endurance can considerably limit the maximum health available. *Note t his does not change if one loses endurance from radiation sickness or withdrawals.
9) Radiation sickness can -not- be cured by doctors or "my first infirmary". The effect the medicine skill has on radaway & stimpacks has been increased. Radiation will not decay over time naturally, and the accumulation of rads has been increased for numerous activities. Exposing one's self to heavily irradiated areas or substances with little to no protection will result in death within one to three minutes.
10) Numerous perks have been modified and rebalanced, intense training is now limited to 3 ranks, and can only be obtained late in the game. however at level 9, the Gain (statistic) perks become available. The perk will only raise an individual attribute by one, once - identical to previous incarnations. Many new perks have also been added - taken directly in context from previous fallout games. Once scripting becomes available, traits will also be added - with several new traits taken from "Arcanum" (and adjusted accordingly), and several perks translated into traits as they should be [bloody mess, etc.].
11) Personal markers will appear on the compass, and map markers will only show up once the player has moved within a close distance (6000). Markers are revealed at a slightly further distance (1500).
12) Players gain (3+Intelligence) skill points per level up, and Tagged skills receive twice the increase per skill point allocated now, and do -not- receive and instant +15 bonus when being tagged. The skill's starting point floor has been lowered by 10, meaning with 5 in each attribute, skills start at 5 rather than 15. These changes have been calculated to allow a player to advance normally in their field of expertise, without becoming a 'jack of all trades' until extremely, extremely late in the game - "after" level 25 for instance, wherein many skills have been upped with books for a long time.
13) The pipboy 'flashlight' is much easier to turn on and off now.
14) Items capable of restoring health - such as food - now restore more than before, and the sanitizer object from Moira is more effective. Depending on the food stuff consumed, the radiation dose received can vary significantly - as well as the health restored. The same is true of drinking water, the lead belly perk is an excellent way to keep one's health up in the wasteland without resorting to cannibalism.
15) Children are no longer immortal.
16) The effects of many armors have been modified, power armor in particular. Donning Enclave fashioned power armor will incur a severe penalty to disposition when dealing with non-enclave NPCs. Though their armor -is- the best, it is not wise to constantly wear it while mingling with townsfolk and doing quests.
17) Prices of ammo - and weapons - have been adjusted to reflect the changes to barter
18) AutoAim has been disabled, and the skill and accuracy of opponents wielding firearms has been improved.
19) Crippled limbs are more serious; the dart gun is thus more effective at restraining an opponent. However, the exact same is true if -your- legs are both crippled.

That's everything I can think of, summed up atleast.
 
Re: @__@

Dubby said:
12) Players gain (3+Intelligence) skill points per level up, and Tagged skills receive twice the increase per skill point allocated now, and do -not- receive and instant +15 bonus when being tagged. The skill's starting point floor has been lowered by 10, meaning with 5 in each attribute, skills start at 5 rather than 15. These changes have been calculated to allow a player to advance normally in their field of expertise, without becoming a 'jack of all trades' until extremely, extremely late in the game - "after" level 25 for instance, wherein many skills have been upped with books for a long time.
Click to expand...

:clap:

Thank you for this! Getting a +15 for tagged skills was lame, glad to see somebody is taking them back to their roots and allowing them to double, like they should.

Would there be any way to bring back the old Traits system during character creation? I noticed alot of the traits got turned into Perks this time around, but with the negative side effects removed.
 
lol in my pants at the "useless bobbleheads"!!!

really, you guys. this stuff sounds great. i second the skill point progression tweak as well. i've been bitching up a storm at the B.S. forums about the inane ability to power-game and superman your character.
 
Re: @__@

Grave461 said:
Would there be any way to bring back the old Traits system during character creation? I noticed alot of the traits got turned into Perks this time around, but with the negative side effects removed.
Click to expand...

Yes, I already know how too. I think i will need script compiling first however, but there is a slim chance I might not. However, I haven't spent a lot of time researching that yet.

edit:

I do feel slightly bad about the bobbleheads doing -nothing- though. Any suggestions?
 
Wizard1200 said:
Carrying weight changed to: 100 + Strength x 20
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are you missing a decimal point there because that is quite a bit. sorry i know nothing of modding and i fully support this mod and will gladly help test it

edit: oh is it, 100 + (str x 20)
 
PEMDAS, my friend. PEMDAS.

Dubby said:
I do feel slightly bad about the bobbleheads doing -nothing- though. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Well, the skill bobbleheads could act as a more powerful book. Say, twice as much? That way, it wouldn't be as huge a boost, but it would still be worth finding them over a book. The SPECIAL bobbleheads could give a small boost to all the skills related to the stat that it used to be related to, if that's possible. It would differentiate them from books and skill bobbleheads while still linking them to their original purpose.
 
Personally I dislike the ideas about bobbleheads. So doing nothing sounds good to me. Maybe we can add a new npc later who will buy them for a huge price. But a plus in stats is imo very unbalanced. If you disagree with this, how about limiting the number of bobbleheads you can use? So that your character does not get "universal", but you have to carefully choose which one you want and which you don't want? this way we still had them, but with far more rp.

So far I'm glad this seems to work out. I only recevied two replies so far, Wizard1200 who joined us, I am very glad about that, and another one, but the reply is unsure for the moment (I think he missunderstood me).

I'd say lets try to gather all the ideas and try to start merging as soon as we have all the replies and know who is "one board" and who want to do their own thing. I'd also suggest that Dubby tries to fix the perk/trait thing as he has some lead and it has not been done yet?

A while early I already mad a thread about better pacing. I know its a longshot, because our tools are very limited, but maybe you can already think about it, here is the thread: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46801

Oh and we also already gather all the cool stuff that is alrady avaible in f3 in this thread here: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46192
- I'd say we also take a look at the balancing section and think about adding it?

Later I will read all the posts again and try to figure out what is best for balance

@dubby
6.) did you remove the amount of loot to find in the wastelands? I know one balancemod already does that, and I think this is very important and would very good with number 6. it should take the player a lot of time until he can afford a good armor. how about 2000 caps for a combat armor in good shape? I think that would just rock that you really have to build up your character and don't obtain a good armor within minutes

9.) I think radiation should decay, but very very slowly, and if possible "only in realtime". So if you wait/sleep it doesn't help. Maybe one radiationpoint every 10 minutes. so if you eat something the effects are removed within one hour of real gaming. this way you don't need to spent radaways just because you ate a little bit of food. It's more for the looks I guess and not really important.

11.) I play with a compassmod which remove all the markers. I'm not sure if I like your idea better, I think most of the game is about exploring. On the other side I dunno how much 6000 or 1500 is, so if its really short it might work out.

14.) I like the idea, but food should be much more expensive and it should be hard to find it. and if possible not every animal should drop it? otherwise it would be overpowered.

I also read on the nexus about wizards mod that some user requested to lower the amount of stimpacks and I couldn't agree more. In F3 you find stims everywhere and they are really useful. maybe we can nerf this in two ways:
1.) lower the amount of stims, 50% or even less? and make them much more expansive?
2.) it should not be possible to use stims while you access the pipboy, only in real time. I dunno if you can hotkey stims, but if so it would work really great. this way you can't pause the game and heal yourself fully again but have to take cover and don't have time to use several stims. Just like in f1/f2. in addition this way we may prevent the healing of crippled limbs? I think a single stim to heal that is way to easy. Stims should not heal crippled limbs, instead your medical skill and maybe additional items (doctors bag or a bandage?) should be needed. for non doctors we could add painkillers which allow to temporarly use the limbs again, but with a health loss, so this way they can travel to a doctor and get fixed? It's a bit hard to balance but I think this could really improve the experience. Is this doable? What do you think about it?
 
Oh, and for tinkering with gizmos and weapons, i've been doing research on projectile flight path behavioral settings & applied effects.

Made me a goofy plasma rifle that fires exploding plasma balls like a shotgun. Heh. Oh, and should the fatman be adjusted to.... well, have a LARGE explosion? (and a.... longer range)
 
I just edited my previous post.

Personally I dislike the idea of the fatman because I don't think it fits the canon. Maybe we can somehow alter it? I really don't know what to do with it, but it feels out of place and far to powerful.
 
Could make a number of npcs into collectors that will trade you something for a couple bobbles. Like Harkness and his A3-21's Plasma Rifle, Biwwy and his Wazer Wifle, Casdin teaching you to use power armor, the different people in Oasis and their rewards, the list goes on.

Would it be possible to make weapons be based on two skills? If the fatman required you to be competent in both heavy weapons and explosives it wouldn't be that overpowering.
 
Rename some slut to Bethesda and have her give you head in exchange for bobbleheads ;/

How about nerfing ridiculous rokit launcher? And improving late-game guns to have weapon progress


And I agree about fatman being cheesy, silly and too easy to obtain early in game (thankfully mini-nukes are rare)
 
Roflcore said:
I just edited my previous post.

Personally I dislike the idea of the fatman because I don't think it fits the canon. Maybe we can somehow alter it? I really don't know what to do with it, but it feels out of place and far to powerful.
Click to expand...

leave that to me >:D Hehehe! *learning alot about the projectile effect encoding*
 
Re: @__@

I have a few suggestions to Dubbys ideas:

1 + 2:
I think its a very good idea to make the game more turn based, but in my opinion it should be a seperate mod, because Fallout 3 is a combination of a rpg and a shooter and making the action points more important nearly removes the shooter element.

3:
I think its a good idea to give the player more time to experience every level, but a higher level cap will probably not work very well, because the enemies dont scale past level 20 and the player doesent get a perk past level 20. It would be perhaps better to reduce the xp for hacking, lock picking and so on as for example in the Welcome to the Wasteland mod.
Additionally it will be probably a bit harsh to penalize players who like lower combat difficulties with reduced xp. I think the difficulty should not affect the xp, because everyone should play as they wish without worrying about xp.


4, 5, 16, 17 and 18:
These changes modify many parts of the combat. Have you tested all these changes and do they work good together? Can the effect of power armor to NPCs break quests?

6:
I think its great to reduce the wealth of the player a bit and make barter more powerful. Perhaps the easiest way is to increase the vendors sell price and to reduce the vendors buy price.

12:
Wow i have tried to change the tag skills, but i had no clue how. Thats very good work. Is it possible to increase the cost of all skills from rank 51 - 100 to 2 skill points? This would make tag skills even more useful and 5 + Intelligence skill points on every level would make intelligence a bit less powerful.
 
Roflcore said:
Personally I dislike the ideas about bobbleheads. So doing nothing sounds good to me. Maybe we can add a new npc later who will buy them for a huge price. But a plus in stats is imo very unbalanced. If you disagree with this, how about limiting the number of bobbleheads you can use? So that your character does not get "universal", but you have to carefully choose which one you want and which you don't want? this way we still had them, but with far more rp.
Click to expand...

What don't you like about them? Gameplay wise, they're pretty much the same as a book, except rarer but more powerful. From a purely gameplay perspective, I think toning them down to be slightly more powerful than a book in the case of skill ones or giving a wider distribution of skills in the case of SPECIAL ones seems about fair.

If it's because it's strange improve when you find a bobblehead, I guess I agree. Maybe you could trade them for a couple books of your choice with an NPC?
 
I still like the bobbleheads. Infact, I'd like for them to keep their bonuses - but only on one very strict condition. To get the 7 core stat bonuses, you have to collect *all seven* of those bobbleheads... and likewise for the skill bonuses - not the teeniest bonus until you collect all of them. I didn't want the bobbleheads having their bonuses "ready available" because that leads a player who already knows where one is to focus on that one.

@Wizard1200
1+2: I have been rigorously testing the formulas and timing before releasing it to the public, and so far the "first person shooter" combat is still very much active and a strong focus - only because of how damage and defense are balanced with combat tactics, ai behavior, healing usage, etc. Taking cover to play shootouts tactically is not only a smart decision FPS wise, but also a -very- smart decision when using the changes to vats & AP. And, the npcs will be using cover to their advantage as well.

3: Perks are completely customizable - that includes what level(s) they can be obtained at.

4: Has been rigorously tested along with 1&2
5: Has also been rigorously tested along with 4, 1, and 2.
16: Armor is still helpful, but a good attack - particularly a critical - will still punch right through. Sadly, because of the lack of scripting I cannot develop a fully fleshed armor rating system...
17: Also been tested and found to be balanced.
18: Autoaim actually causes more harm than it helps. Autoaim can cause a shot from a gun to veer drastically off course, to try to hit an enemy in a random body part - even if it is obviously obscured by terrain or objects. Without autoaim, gun combat is much more enjoyable. It has not been fully disabled, because there are a few cosmetic reasons to keep AA enabled - but the effects it can have on projectile trajectory (gun spread) has been completely nullified.

6: Actually it's the other way around, but that is true - and already enstated.

12: No, skills can't work like that yet - but at the very least the tagged skills work correctly. However they do not gain twice the bonus from skill points given by perks. As for the skill points... that will need community testing to best balance. The object is to avoid the "jack of all trades" symptom that plagues every single bethesda game.


@Roflcore
6: No, it's just a matter of adjusting barter arithmetic and formulas. Repairing is good for keeping your weapon and armor combat ready, but I would not recommend it if you're planning on selling them to a merchant - they're worth more as standalone.

9: Sorry but the decay rate is set in stone as an integer, it's either 1 or it's 0 - and I chose 0. Food isn't as serious for radiation poisoning as you'd think. Skinny dipping with the mirelurks will fry your brains though... and everything else.

11: Quest markers aren't visible... but the independent (hollow) quest marker you can place anywhere on the map -is- visible at all times again. And the entrances to locations are visible on the compass once, and only once, you're within visible [combat] distance. If you want a grasp on distance measurements, open the console, click something and type "GetDistance Player" and it will tell you the distance in... units... from yourself to that reference [object]. 5000 is actually not very much. The default "max engage distance" for VATS is 5000, fyi.

14: Actually as I have been playing on normal - just normal - I have had to rely heavily on food for healing... reserving the precious stimpacks for serious injuries and immediate mid-combat emergency h ealing. I am still low on food & stimpaks. It is very possible for a careless player to end up... 'starving' their health in the wasteland just because they ran out of healing resources. Assault rifles are painful. Muties that have something better than a near-broken hunting rifle are painful too. Set on hard difficulty, the game *will* be hard. Very hard, is very very challenging. The mentality is, as the difficulty increases, the casualty incurred from mistakes become more and more severe. In other words, sloppy combat tactics, failing to scout out unexplored areas first to gather intel, making use of terrain for cover, reacting fast to incoming threats, etc. etc. I like it.

As for stimpaks... I have actually had to increase their potency (along with radaway, incidentally). Despite this however, you'll still be using them regularly and will often run out. (With the exception of the crazy brotherhood outcast quest that nets tons of stims & radaways, which needs to be.... modified somewhat.) Otherwise, you are gonig to be using what you find, often.
 
1) Make money more scarce? Make exchange more important

2) How about make ammo have weight: in my actual game i am carrying 500 bullets 5.56, and more 300 10mm, 2 missiles...etc
 
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