Fallout's writing

D

docholliday909

First time out of the vault
Hey all, I've read NMA for quite some time now, I've been a huge Fallout fan since it first came out and can say with all certainty that i've played F1 & F2 more than any other game (despite being a huge cRPG nerd). Every once in a while i end up re-installing them and playing through them again. As time has gone on, i've tried many modifications in order to try to mix up my experience. I absolutely love the isometric perspective, SPECIAL and all that stuff that makes it Fallout. But what I've realized is that the thing i perhaps love most is the writing. And that's what brings me to my point. As excited as i am by all the different mods out there, none of them have really been what i would expect from a community of gamers who love the Fallout franchise. I understand that fan-made projects rarely have the same standard of quality as a professionally developed game, but i cannot tell you how many times i've been turned off by a mod's poor grammar or awkwardly phrased dialogue choices. This problem is further compounded by the fact that Eastern Europeans seem to be just as in love with the post-apoc setting as I am, which results in me desperately wanting a new post-apoc RPG experience, but always being disappointed when comparing it to the original games.

I've never really felt the need to post on the forums here before, but I was just wondering what the consensus is on the topic. Are you able to disregard the generally poor writing within mods? Or perhaps you don't find the writing to be of poor quality? Just wondering if anyone feels the same.
 
The problem is, not everyone can get good writers. Also some problems might occure because of bad translations and so on. As far as I can see, most (yet released) Fallout 2 mods are not from the native english speaking dudes, but from russians, germans, etc. etc.
 
Edit them! yes I agree allot of the writing is poor. My Cold Hearts mod even sucked a little (first mod. Just started writing).

Mods need editors, but there are not many people who are prepared to volunteer. I have been looking for an editor for Global mod for a few weeks, and will have to release a less than perfect version. But it's better than nothing.
 
I think I can get past the bad writing and grammar in a fan-made project as long as they are understandable. But english is also a foreign langage for me too, (as many of the modders of this board I think) so I guess I don't allow myself to judge the work of others since I know I don't do better (and maybe worse).

But I have difficulties when it is too simple, and i mean not only the dialogue itself, but also the construction:
In Fallout, the first time you see someone, he's got an introduction dialogue (hi stranger, first time here), the next time it will be "hello again", or if you are doing something for him, he will ask you how it's going, if you did some quest for gizmo, he will greet you with a specific line, etc, etc
With the important NPC, if you ask the same thing again, he will say:
I told you before, bla bla bla.
Ask him too much the same question, and he send you to piss off.
And to make it feel like a real discussion, I need to feel a disorganisation in the speech, not just:
node 1
tell me about faction A
tell me about faction B
tell me about faction C

Answer
faction A is bla bla bla
go back to node 1.

Of course there are some simple dialogue like this, but not that many.
With this sort of dialogue, you just have to click on the three line to get the information you want. With a complex fallout dialogue, it's during a discussion that you get the intell , and if you say the wrong thing, the npc won't tell you what you need to know, or will tell you less. And maybe you won't get another chance...
But this is really hard to write, so...
 
I think writing is important, especially in a game like Fallout. Probably the most important thing. If the writing sucks my experience usually sucks.
 
Yeah - i hear ya, doc. I too adore the writing in FO and FO2: it just makes the game for me. I think that writing good dialogue is just ... well, really difficult. I mean - look at FO3: Bethesda said themselves that they didn't even TRY to write good dialogue for the game - and i think demonstrates just how hard it is if a professional game developer with millions$ to spend can't make it good.

As Dude101 says - language is a problem (and you yourslef noticed) A polish mod could have awesome dialogue - in polish, and then be lost in translation to English becuase the translator can't connect with the original writer ......
 
Hello, I'm newly registered to the forum.

Just wanted to say that I too think writing is probably the most important feature of Fallout 1 & 2. I mean, these games are like 11 or more years old, but they are still hell of a fun to play, thanks to the dialogue and descriptions that build the ambiance.

I dare say that with good dialogue, even the simplest, most routine quest is fun to play.

I haven't tried other people's mods yet, so I don't know exactly what would be my reaction to poor writing. I understand all too well how difficult it is to invent a naturally-flowing conversation with all the drama and specificity of the character and then repeat the same feat for the rest of NPCs on the map/in game, especially if you're not a native user of English.

Nevertheless, with all due respect for the hard work modders put into their creations, I'm afraid I would be set back by bad writing in a game of Fallout, because of the role text plays in this game.
 
As with any other aspect of development, pre-planning is an important part of the process. Writing dialogs should go through an editing process; set up your character dialogs in advance with a design document. This will allow you to write your nodes and make sure that you cover all of your bases in an easily-edited format before you commit to writing the code for the conversation. Then code up the dialog tree and test, test, test!
 
This is, of course, very true.

But the problem with modding is that it is more often than not a single person or a small group of people doing it, who all have their jobs, families, boy/girlfriends, and other obligations, and are doing it for the sake of doing it.

It may happen that if modders try to write all dialogue in advance, they won't have time or willingness to script it. I guess it was the case of Fan Made Fallout (http://www.fanmadefallout.com/) - a very ambitious project, organised in a semi-professional manner, which ended up with one town barely finished after seven years of hard work. Sad but true.

I am making a mod of my own - it's a total conversion of Fallout 2, with a bunch of new cities, art and an independent plot. I intend it to be big - a little bigger than Fallout 1, and I am aware, that I won't probably finish it.
So, I have some more or less detailed design documents;
I try to write dialogues and scripts quest by quest;
When I'm fed up with scripting or writing, I do maps and art;
I try to finish one city before going to another, but it's not always doable, since I get so excited about a particular quest I invented, or so bored with the current town, that I pass on to another one.

Still, I already have like 3,5 locations (out of 18) wrapped up and working. I figured out this MO was a much more effective one for a single person like myself - at least I can see progress, which is motivating enough. And yes, sometimes I need to redo a whole script because I changed my mind about a character, or because of all the additional dialogue I need to write, or because it was an old script, written when I had no idea how to script.
 
This thread is very topical for me, seeing as I've spent most of my free time these past several months re-writing nearly all the new dialog added by Killap's Restoration Project.

I agree with the original poster, which is why I offered my services to Killap in the first place. I tried my best to bring the RP's dialog up to snuff with the original game. Ideally, the new dialog will blend into the game seamlessly, so if a person didn't know better, they'd be unable to distinguish between the original dialog, and dialog that was added by the RP.
 
Josan12 said:
A polish mod could have awesome dialogue - in polish, and then be lost in translation to English becuase the translator can't connect with the original writer ......
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Look at the Witcher for example (books). Only one out of seven was translated, since there really isn't anyone capable of translating all the work into english, while retaining the original quality.

I have recently re-payed Witcher game both in english and polish and I gotta say that I feel sorry for ya non-polish folks, who played this game in english.

As for Fallout dialouge....well, I have already re-written most of my dialogue I've made for my mod and it still doesn't look like it's the quality I want. Either way, I suppose polishing dialogue will be done once I get along with most scripting etc.
 
I usually give the Primitive Tribe and Abbey in the RP a wide berth, just on account of the quests and dialogue related to those places being so poor and unimaginative. I mean, why is Sulik the only Jamaican in his tribe? And take a look at the dialogue options you have when getting the location of the tribe from Metzger and see what I mean, tons of wasted space and empty words by the idea that "Hey, now this character is doing something outside of dialogue, which HAS to be explained with *asterisks*", so that the options look like this:

1. The tribe is south of here? *blahdi blahdi blahdi blahdi blah PipBoy* Just wanted to check if the slavers were as powerful as they claimed to be. Bye!

2. The tribe is south of here? *blahdi blahdi blahdi blahdi blah PipBoy* Just wanted to check if the slavers were as powerful as they claimed to be. One more question...

instead of possibly

1. South of here, huh? Just curious. Say, I was wondering...

2. I'll keep that in mind. Bye!

I don't know what Dravean's work on the RP dialogue looks like, but I wish him the best of luck.
 
I think the quality of the writing plays a major part in making these games so enjoyable. It's not entirely consistent (the combined work of several different writers), but on the whole it really captures what you would expect to hear in a post-apocalytic earth. An old Western feel given a unique futuristic touch. Without writing that's at least half as good, the game would lose a lot of points. I think modders should make it a must to work with capable writers, especially those working on big projects.
 
Magnus said:
I usually give the Primitive Tribe and Abbey in the RP a wide berth, just on account of the quests and dialogue related to those places being so poor and unimaginative. I mean, why is Sulik the only Jamaican in his tribe?
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The Abbey and the Primitive Tribe are the two locations I overhauled the most. I agree that some of the new quests are a bit lacking (too many fetch quests for my taste), and I've tried to make them feel more logical, but there's only so much that can be done through dialog changes alone. However, Killap and I have been discussing the possibility of altering the quests and perhaps adding some new ones to these areas. Unfortunately, that might have to wait until 1.4, as this release has already been delayed for so long. We'll see.

Oh, and you'll be happy to know that I addressed the issue of no one else in Sulik's tribe speaking like him, as that bothered me as well.

So anyway, you should give those areas a chance when 1.3 comes out. I'd love to hear what people think of the alterations.
 
Dravean said:
Oh, and you'll be happy to know that I addressed the issue of no one else in Sulik's tribe speaking like him, as that bothered me as well.
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Awesomeness. Good to hear, Dravean. :clap: I agree that some of the writing for the Abbey and the Primitive tribe RP 1.2 needs some work.

I look forward to 'reading' you in 1.3 :D
 
We at FOBGE are trying to eliminate the shitness ratio roughly this way:

1) Get an experienced, gifted, and intelligent dialogue writer. Prove your "long fingers" and hire copy editors, amateur/book writers and so instead of hornmad noobs (sorry). Original shit will most probably stay shitty, but ruining well-written dialog requires some skill, right?

2) Grab some cheerful proofreaders. Just as many as you can, which means cca 2x more than you think you actually are in need of. It's easier and cheaper than hunting really qualified translators. At least in Czech fucking Republic.

Because chatty BGE has good writers writing long papers, but rather average translators, we're quite addicted to that guys. IIRC, I've seen such process only once, and it was such an horrible sea of yellow and red sets and fillers representing what should be deleted, reformed, or returned back to the author. Thus, reliable translation leader is something good to have on hand as well. Took me X years to "invent" this.

Well, and the result? You never know until your stuff is proudly released.
 
The original poster of this topic really has some timing on him. I just joined this site a few days ago. And really, just for what he is talking about.

I like to write, and I'm no scripter or such. I can think up things, and usually apply them. (Maybe its because I've been RPing online for over half my life technically. 24 years old now, I began RP in the golden-age on AOL back when FFVII first came out on the US PS1. Which is.. 13 years ago? I think, not sure. But thats when I began.)

And I never let up since. I enjoy to create with the written word. Maybe more than playing a game. Because frankly some games, as much as I enjoy them, the stories or twists or plain bungles make me wanna puke.

Anyway, diatribe aside, I came to this site to try and help with this exact problem. Because after thought, I realized that there probably wasn't that many who would proof-read, edit, or just create new story-arcs, quests, or dialogue (fail spell check here says I spelled dialogue wrong, :clap: ). Like an artist here (script writer), who paints the picture using their code, I want to help put the captions to those images. Which takes a certain panache. Or sheer bloody-mindedness. I probably have both. Probably.


I'm already working on something I think, I luckily contacted a modder here who had an idea, and I hope to contribute and let him realize his dream. I plan on also helping some other projects, as I was told this Mutants Rising total conversion might need someone to do a similar task. I have yet to look into it, I really don't wanna do one of those things where I put more on my plate than I can handle.

Anyone who may want to bounce ideas off of me, though, feel free to PM me with story ideas, ask for help with maybe a writers block point, or what have you.


Kudos goes to the one who posted this topic, and your extraordinary timing. You've helped make my day just a little bit brighter (and saved me by figuring out how to broach the subject myself, :) )
 
When modders have limited time, the solution isn't to skip the process of making a design document. The solution is to pick a smaller, less-ambitious starting point.

Design documents are a way to pre-think your material so that you don't run into problems later. As a cogent example, during the development of Fallout (1) I discovered a problem with Gizmo. As written, there was a particular entry point that you could take (dialog-wise) for which he had no initial response. Since Gizmo had animation and recorded voice, this was a serious problem - we couldn't go back and record new material; it was already done. Luckily we had the float_msg system and it was an entry point for which Gizmo could brush off the player, so we added a float_msg and called it a day. I never would have caught this bug if I hadn't been looking at the design document and then realized that there was a fall-through case for Gizmo when the player entered dialog. It probably would've been found later in bug testing, but that would not have been a great time!

As an example, I've been (very slowly) working on a Fallout 3 addition. It's very small: two areas, about 5 characters. That's deliberate. I don't spend 8-10 hours per day on this, so I am keeping it to a scale that I can reasonably handle. IF I finish this mod and it all works, THEN I can start on something more ambitious and large-scale.

I applaud the notion of total conversions and big-time whole-cloth creations. Just realize what you're getting into! A full-time (and overtime) staff of paid professionals takes YEARS to make a game like Fallout. Expecting a team to do it part-time in a shorter period is a recipe for disappointment.

Start small. Build a proof-of-concept. Work from established elements. When you have a functioning component, expand. Plan tight. Ruthlessly cut extraneous elements and focus on the essentials. After you have successfully produced material, move on to something newer and better. There's no sense trying to make a massive mod or a totally new set of script commands when you haven't become fully familiar with the original material in small, controlled conditions. Even the professionals made plenty of mistakes, after all . . .
 
Jesse Heinig said:
I applaud the notion of total conversions and big-time whole-cloth creations. Just realize what you're getting into! A full-time (and overtime) staff of paid professionals takes YEARS to make a game like Fallout. Expecting a team to do it part-time in a shorter period is a recipe for disappointment.

Start small. Build a proof-of-concept. Work from established elements. When you have a functioning component, expand. Plan tight. Ruthlessly cut extraneous elements and focus on the essentials. After you have successfully produced material, move on to something newer and better. There's no sense trying to make a massive mod or a totally new set of script commands when you haven't become fully familiar with the original material in small, controlled conditions. Even the professionals made plenty of mistakes, after all . . .
Click to expand...

Well said, Jesse. I agree completely :clap:
 
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