Game Informer Fallout 3 article scans

[Xython]

Civilisation 4.

Number 9 over 2006, according to NPD (half the top 10 is Sims games, obviously).

Xython: tell me the last turn-based game that flopped?

Also tell me why Fallout 3 shouldn't be a Sims game, since Sims games dominate the PC top 10.

Actually, a Sim game where you have to keep a family / village alive and kicking in the wasteland would kick a rather large amount of ass.

Set up buildings, send out scouts, find water sources, start trading with the neighbors, fight off bandits and mutated hellspawn (or tame them!), etc etc...

 

[Bunkermensch]

Really? When's the last time you saw a turn based game break the top 10 PC games list?

I mean, outside of strategy games like Medieval Total War 2.

That is what it is about?
You want this game to be in the top 10?

Do you not want this game to be in the top 10?

Bethesda isn't making a game for you. They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can.

If you want a game for you, learn C++ and the DirectX API or libSDL.

Why libSDL?

 

[boer_kameel]

Why should I decide to buy a game named Fallout 3 whose creators didn't care to make a real Fallout sequel, instead of The Omega Syndrome or an album of Marduk, Emperor, Nile, Behemoth, Richard Wagner, Dimmu Borgir, Ildjarn, Zyklon, Amon Amarth, Satyricon, Ziltoid, Battlelore, Therion, Cradle of Filth, Morbid Angel, Ministry, Within Temptation, Puissance, Vader or a similiar band or a DVD with a movie like Brasil, Jin Roh, Metropolis, Them, Akira Kurosawa's and Cubrick's movies, 1984, Japaneese porn etc. or comics like EC Comics archives, Buck Rogers, Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon, Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, Mister X, Electropolis, Terminal City, Click, Punisher Archives, Warhammer Monthly subscription, etc. or book like one those about medieval and renaissance history, WWII, Korean War, firearms, medieval and renaissance arms and armor, medieval and renaissance martial arts, tanks, life advice, etc. or various novels, art albums or PnP RPG manuals like GURPS Basic Set, GURPS Atomic Horror, GURPS High Tech, GURPS Ultra Tech, The Riddle of Steel - The Flower of Battle, old AD&D manuals, etc. or a computer game like C&C3, Close Combat 6, various indie and shareware games, a monthly Fitness Club subscription, music lessons, etc., etc., etc.

Are you somehow trying to imply that I don't have to pay my rent, tax, electricity & gas, clothes, PC parts, holiday costs (China and France this year), games, various trips & dinner with the GF, sports, presents for my quite big family and whatnot?
We all have to make choices.
Not mentioning Within Temptation: Why the heck are they between that list??

Fight against piracy, then we've got a REAL representation of who plays what. Then no one will think "I've bought Fallout/ Baldur"s Gate / JA2 very long ago, but can't find the CD/CD is broken, I'll just down it". They'll have to buy it, and this will show in sales.

Yeah, and let's like, advocate making discs impossible to copy, so that people would have to pay many times for the same thing instead of making backups.

Where did I advocate making discs impossible to copy? That's useless, and I love having the right and possibility to copy optical media - it's obsolete, I use NAS.
Is this a hobby of yours, taking little undetailed information about a subject, then ranting about what you envision it represents?

Then why do you bother posting here?

Because... *gasp* I'm a Fallout fan and it's a Fallout fansite?

If you won't take an effort in improving F3 and don't care for a non-Fallout Fallout, and don't open to the even remote possibility that some Beth devs are really trying to do what you want (in fear of being disappointed?), why bother?

Bethesda has already decided to make a game that doesn't continue the tabletop roleplaying traditions of predecessors.
They decided to create a survival horror-like action RPG.

My point exactly. Why bother rolling in self-sorrow about this? Survival horror and action are not sure, though.

Just for the fun of being able to whine?

No. Just to point out that they aren't creating a real Fallout. My goal is preservation, expansion and improvement of tabletop rooted cRPGs. Bethesda's goal is the opposite.
BTW, what's the deal with all these people to which criticism=whining?

Neither were BOS and POS. Devs *think* those don't sell. Beth says that they don't like making such games.

I want a preserved cRPG too, although I'm not a tabletop fan. IT'S NOT HERE NOW. What are you going to do about that? Ah, ok:

Summarize what we really want, get a unanimity on that, and choose a course of action. Get Beth's attention. If that doesn't work, get media attention.

And how do you get Beth's attention? Bethsoft is aware of what we are expecting from F3. Sadly, they are too busy redefining Fallout to make a real F3.

As for the media...
Hmm...
They could use something similar to the History of Fallout article - it could convince some people that some design decisions are just wrong.

Indeed! My point exactly. I am not fighting the fact that you dislike what Beth is doing with F3. I dislike the lack of action.

That's my definition of whining: Saying something is bad, generating a lot of bad rep, when just doing nothing at all.

If you're really that passioned by your cause, then go and post that at their forums! Create a petition, make a site, contact journalists, write your local media, make a podcast, whatever!

Sitting here trying to convince people that won't be convinced, or rolling in sorrow with peers, is NOT going to change a thing.

I dislike, as stated, what Beth is doing with Fallout - although I may like playing F3, it may NOT be F1 or F2, or what their devs and fans envision. I am passionated by the original Fallouts, but not in such an extent that I am willing to move the world to make it to what it is.

I am mildly active in Beth's forums, trying to view what's going on, and take part in polls and discussions to show what I like - things like turnbased, answers to questions like "what the heck is a portable nuke launcher", and support CONSTRUCTIVE comments to eliminate as many flaws as possible.

One man, or a group of "11 disgruntled guys on a website" are not going to make a difference. If you do want to, then do something in stead of wasting your time whining here.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

Here's a question, Xython. Let's apply your logic.

The Sims vastly outsold Morrowind, and The Sims 2 has done the same to Oblivion. The Sims has outsold EVERYTHING.

So applying your logic, why should Fallout 3 not be played from an overhead perspective with context menus telling the character to take a shit or burn themselves to death with the stove?

Would you call that Fallout 3?

Edit: Christ, it appears you might just.

 

[Xython]

When's the last time you did a good quote pyramid?

My apologies, I was not intending to create a pyramid.

Why libSDL?

SDL is considered a really great alternative to DirectX (which is an absolute bear to learn and implement well), that has the bonus of being cross platform (Windows / Mac / Linux) to boot.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Civ4's a strategy game, doesn't count.

What's wrong with strategy games? It's still turn based! There's a lot of interest here in the Fallout mod for Civ.

There's also lot of cross over between the Fallout, JA2 and Silent Storm communities (and no doubt others I've forgot to mention) totally different games but all turn based.

So there's a market there for some smart adventurous developer to tap into.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Do you not want this game to be in the top 10?

Bethesda isn't making a game for you. They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can.

If you want a game for you, learn C++ and the DirectX API or libSDL.

No no no palsy, don't start putting words in my mouth now.

I thought most of your opinions were because you felt that Fallout should evolve and include all kinds of Real Time elements and First Person view.

But now you pretty much say that the developers should have jumped on every bandwagon that is popular on the moment in order to sell.

 

[Xython]

Here's a question, Xython. Let's apply your logic.

The Sims vastly outsold Morrowind, and The Sims 2 has done the same to Oblivion. The Sims has outsold EVERYTHING.

So applying your logic, why should Fallout 3 not be played from an overhead perspective with context menus telling the character to take a shit or burn themselves to death with the stove?

My dear Kan-Kerai, I am not advocating that Bethesda drop the entire concept of Fallout to go with the lowest common denominator. I am pointing out that tile based isometric 2D rpgs are not exactly what I would call a super-popular choice in modern gaming.

Besides, if I was going to advocate they switch Genres, I'd ask them to politely license the Dragon Quest 8 Engine. A true RPG (not one of these "CRPG" watered down messes) in the Fallout universe would rock.

 

[Sander]

Civ4's a strategy game, doesn't count.

So, why doesn't it count? It proves very, very, very conclusively that turn-based games are in *no way* unpopular and impractical. Which is exactly what you're arguing.
This'd be like me ignoring Oblivion and saying 'that's an action RPG, so it doesn't count, RPGs can only be isometric'.

ToEE is what, 4 years old now? 5? And it wasn't exactly a success, what with Atari deciding to remove the entire evil side of the game at the last minute.

It was a top 10 game, Xython. Exactly what you requested.

Do you not want this game to be in the top 10? Confused

Bethesda isn't making a game for you.

They should be making a game that fits the license that they bought.
Money does not make right.

They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can.

Again with that retarded-ass logic. Do the words 'pick a niche' ring a bell? Anyone with even a small clue about business knows that you make money by targeting an audience *that needs something new*. You don't make money by targeting an audience that does not need something, and certainly not with a game that's pretty much the same as a dozen other games.

If you want a game for you, learn C++ and the DirectX API or libSDL.

Ah yes, the retarded 'you don't like it, go do it yourself' argument.
Stop trolling.

My dear Kan-Kerai, I am not advocating that Bethesda drop the entire concept of Fallout to go with the lowest common denominator.

Liar: "They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can."

I am pointing out that tile based isometric 2D rpgs are not exactly what I would call a super-popular choice in modern gaming.

No one is talking about 2d, tile-based games.
Last warning: quit trolling, or you get a ban.

Besides, if I was going to advocate they switch Genres, I'd ask them to politely license the Dragon Quest 8 Engine. A true RPG (not one of these "CRPG" watered down messes) in the Fallout universe would rock.

Wait, now you're advocating that there should be a Fallout game closer to P&P?
You're an absolute fucking loon. Also, how the fuck is Dragon Quest 8 a 'true RPG'?

 

[Xython]

Do you not want this game to be in the top 10?

Bethesda isn't making a game for you. They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can.

If you want a game for you, learn C++ and the DirectX API or libSDL.

No no no palsy, don't start putting words in my mouth now.

I thought most of your opinions were because you felt that Fallout should evolve and include all kinds of Real Time elements and First Person view.

But now you pretty much say that the developers should have jumped on every bandwagon that is popular on the moment in order to sell.

And now you're trying to put words in MY mouth.

All I'm saying is that the CRPG genre has evolved to a certain point from when Fallout 2 was released.

Do I think they could do better than an action RPG? Maybe.

But at the same time, I recognize that Oblivion was a darned fine game. It had it's issues, but so did Fallout 1 and 2.

Speaking of other games, I also loved NWN2. Played that religiously until my recent reformat. To be honest, seeing them snag the NWN2 engine and do F3 in it would have been sweet, too.

But it's not going to happen, and it's time to let go of the sour grapes and move on. Bethesda is going to use their own engine and make a game to their strengths. They're going to target the biggest audience they can while making their game to their strengths and to their chosen genre -- that of a modern CRPG, of which Oblivion is the poster child, not Fallout, not Baldur's Gate, not even NWN2 (which I would call a "classic style CRPG").

 

[Sander]

And now you're trying to put words in MY mouth.

All I'm saying is that the CRPG genre has evolved to a certain point from when Fallout 2 was released.

Real-time, first-person RPGs existed a long *long* time before Fallout was even made. You argument is retarded and fallacious.

Do I think they could do better than an action RPG? Maybe.

But at the same time, I recognize that Oblivion was a darned fine game. It had it's issues, but so did Fallout 1 and 2.

Speaking of other games, I also loved NWN2. Played that religiously until my recent reformat. To be honest, seeing them snag the NWN2 engine and do F3 in it would have been sweet, too.

But it's not going to happen, and it's time to let go of the sour grapes and move on. Bethesda is going to use their own engine and make a game to their strengths. They're going to target the biggest audience they can while making their game to their strengths and to their chosen genre -- that of a modern CRPG, of which Oblivion is the poster child, not Fallout, not Baldur's Gate, not even NWN2 (which I would call a "classic style CRPG").

'It's happening, so stop whining'.
No. Fuck off. We're here because we want a game that is like the first Fallout games. We're not going to stop wanting that just because Bethesda isn't making one.

Also, to call Oblivion a fine example of an RPG is retarded. What are those mini-games doing there, and where are the *choices and consequences*?

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

And now you're trying to put words in MY mouth.

Okay, guilty about that one.

But it's not going to happen, and it's time to let go of the sour grapes and move on. Bethesda is going to use their own engine and make a game to their strengths. They're going to target the biggest audience they can while making their game to their strengths and to their chosen genre -- that of a modern CRPG, of which Oblivion is the poster child, not Fallout, not Baldur's Gate, not even NWN2 (which I would call a "classic style CRPG").

And they could not have done this by creating their own PA franchise?

 

[boer_kameel]

Yes, indeed, Beth shouldn't have taken the Fallout franchise for their envisionment of a Post Nuclear game. A dev true to it's original concept should have had it.

Yes, it saddens me too that we're not going to get what was expected for 10 years.

Yes, the things are saddening as they are going nowadays. The move towards quantity in stead of quality, the needs of the (dumb) masses in stead of the (more gifted) few.

Realize that those here on NMA are the gifted few. People valuing quality, depth, meaning, atmosphere. People not settling with less than near-perfection.

You can be proud of being that. It shows some vision to try to go for the best, and really fight for the right to want the best.

Fact is, that it's a consumer's society today. One time, I hope, the masses will realize that this way of living isn't going to cut it. In the end, it's all about the balance of things...

My point in previous posts wasn't that you cannot want the best. It's about the way how.
Focus your power, your anger, into something constructive. Unite, create. Make nice, readable, accesible material for the masses. Thought-through polls. Real figures and percentages.

Starting one-man tirades everywhere you can isn't going to change a thing. The masses hold the power, so be smarter than the masses, and try to lead them into salvation.

I would gladly support any initiative that's focused on emphasizing the keeping of the feel of the classic Fallouts. I however refuse to join pointless whining, it serves no use!

At least follow Brother None's example, he's trying to fight this situation politically. Active on Beth's fora, opening threads, adding to useful ones.
Support his opinions. Don't let those threads dissolve in Vatted negativism obscurity, find a way to vent your anger in a way that can be used...

 

[Punter X]

you'll have to excuse me for butting in but i can't help being somewhat surprised that the mere idea of a turn based system in an rpg in the Fallout series is seen as "experimental"

 

[Tannhauser]

Back to the scans, I put togethor a comparison collage on Super Mutants.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

I would actually been a lot more positive if this had been something completely new which Fallout fans at Bethesda had thought up to emulate one of their favorite games.

It would not have been to everyone's tastes and a lot of the people would have probably moved on after seeing the trailer and the screenshots, not bothering thinking about it again.

Me. Cool, a group of people who like Fallout so much that they want to try to make something just as entertaining for people while we all wait for Fallout 3.

 

[Xython]

Civ4's a strategy game, doesn't count.

So, why doesn't it count? It proves very, very, very conclusively that turn-based games are in *no way* unpopular and impractical. Which is exactly what you're arguing.
This'd be like me ignoring Oblivion and saying 'that's an action RPG, so it doesn't count, RPGs can only be isometric'.

And there are plenty of people who take that very stance. There's a reason I use the term "CRPG" not "RPG". Quite a few people do not consider CRPGs to be "true" RPGs.

ToEE is what, 4 years old now? 5? And it wasn't exactly a success, what with Atari deciding to remove the entire evil side of the game at the last minute.

It was a top 10 game, Xython. Exactly what you requested.

Ok, I'll give you that.

And I'll also point out that ToEE was so darned successful that it helped kill Troika Games.

Do you not want this game to be in the top 10? Confused

Bethesda isn't making a game for you.

They should be making a game that fits the license that they bought.
Money does not make right.

Actually, in this case, one could say that money does make right. They bought the license. That doesn't mean they HAVE to make a game to a set of extremely narrow demands.

For good or evil, Fallout 3 is going to be an official Fallout game.

They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can.

Again with that retarded-ass logic. Do the words 'pick a niche' ring a bell? Anyone with even a small clue about business knows that you make money by targeting an audience *that needs something new*. You don't make money by targeting an audience that does not need something, and certainly not with a game that's pretty much the same as a dozen other games.

They're picking a niche! The Computer RPG niche!

I'm sorry that your sub-sub-SUB niche, the "Isometric, Turn Based, Post Apocalyptic, 1950s RPG using the SPECIAL" niche doesn't have the buying power that the "Computer RPG" market does, but, them's the ropes.

Bethesda has to at least try and target a large enough audience to pay off the development and purchasing price for the Fallout license. Heck, didn't the original license holder require a 1.5 MILLION dollar advance, just on the royalties? That's, what, 200,000 copies of the game or more? Just for the name?

But seriously guys, half of you are acting like they decided to make a Dating Sim or freaking Arena FPS game. They're making a CRPG, which is just what the fanbase wanted.

My dear Kan-Kerai, I am not advocating that Bethesda drop the entire concept of Fallout to go with the lowest common denominator.

Liar: "They are making a game to sell to the largest audience they can."

Those are two separate statements. You cannot expect Bethesda to make games for the 100 or so people that post here. If you can't understand why not, well...

I truly am sorry.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Focus your power, your anger, into something constructive. Unite, create. Make nice, readable, accesible material for the masses. Thought-through polls. Real figures and percentages.

Starting one-man tirades everywhere you can isn't going to change a thing. The masses hold the power, so be smarter than the masses, and try to lead them into salvation.

Again total bullshit! Don't you tire of spreading this muck?

Lead the masses? The masses don't read forums, not all of them read the magazines. The masses see the game advertised between the next episodes of Lost and 24 then see it on the shelf in their supermarket and buy it.

 

[Nim82]

Except this is the year 2007, and Turn based games are dead. I'm sure they could be done quite well, in indy and niche games, but Fallout 3 isn't a niche game. Bethesda isn't going to risk something "experimental" on Fallout 3.

Turn based is not dead. I play Galactic Civilizations II, a rather successful series which is growing fast. It is turn based, and still people are buying it in droves. It was in the Top-10 for some period after launch, and still is on some charts. I like the way your making an exception for the Strat genre though, as if that means anything. Gamers are gamers, if they can put down C&C, WC3, Starcraft, etc and play turn based strategy why on earth can't RPG gamers (the two groups aren't mutually exclusive)?.

Am I meant to take solace in the fact Bethesda aren't going to be innovative or experimental with FO3 - is that honestly meant to be a good thing? Beth are lazy toads with a one trick pony, they haven't even made their game engine - they licensed it. Oblivion is no poster child, how can it be the figurehead when everyone considers it's predecessor MW to be the better game?

 

[Xython]

And they could not have done this by creating their own PA franchise?

The alternative to Bethesda buying it was to let the license end up in one of 3 hands:

1. EA. We would have gotten Fallout Tactics 2, only with hookers. Or some mutated PA-Sports style game. You know, like Crazy Taxi with guns.
2. Microsoft. We would have gotten Fallout Arena, a Xbox 360 only FPS that takes place in a desert.
3. Take Two. We would have gotten Grand Theft Fallout. The entire game would have taken place inside one huge, barely damaged town, where you run around dealing with mutated street thugs as you try and make money for your mom's Jet habit, or something.

Those are the people who were most likely to buy it other than Bethesda. Of the 4 evils, I think we definitely got the lesser one.