Ehe. At one point they did ask NMA to be planetfallout.com. Quite a while back, though.st0lve said:
Gamespy on Fallout fans
- Thread starter Brother None
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metalboss44
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Gamespy is for those who find Oblivion to be a deep gameplay experience. They take what they can get. I'm surprised, this is unusually harsh way to describe people who are just purist and do not like the changes they see so far. I consider myself a fallout fan , while I can agree with alot of changes that have been made , I can't agree witht he fact that Bethesda has completely re-written the formula, skewered the premise and more importantly, used OBLIVION as a model to design Fallout 3 upon. I think that is inexcusable and the game looks like complete shit.
Smoke_Jaguar
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
metalboss44 said:
It's like an ex girlfriend you just keep comparing new girls with. Fuck people keep talking about that ex and don't say shit about the parents of the new girl, named Fallout and Fallout 2.
deadairis said:
Because
1) "I'm a Fallout fan" is not a view, it's a statement.
2) It is a statement that does not change the fact that a Gamespy editor is using official airing time of Gamespy to wish horrible deaths upon a group of people
Context is great, but when it doesn't change anything, it doesn't matter.
Seraphim Pwns U
It Wandered In From the Wastes
deadairis said:
Welp, first off, there's nothing really praiseworthy of noting yourself as a member of the Fallout fan community... but in light of that, thank you for sticking your neck out. ^_~
Second, IIRC, that's about *all* I heard you say about Fallout, because Mr. Rosche wholly dominated that conversation... most of your replies are "M-hm", "Right", "Who else would run the Podcast when I die?", "We saw it in Manhunt", and the rest patronizing/self-patronizing sarcasm or half-uttered, incoherent, interrupted, phrases.
The thing is, that sort of thing is uncalled for. Few people wish soccer fans dead, despite the fact that at certain times, they are extremely destructive to both the game, its reputation, and the stadium they're in. Few people wish baseball players dead, despite the greed and selfishness the game allows to fester. So, upon what basis does he have to wish the entire community to die; is it simply based upon a handful's vocal attitude? Would it be equally right for us to virulently spread a wish of the same manner upon him or other developers-of-crappy-games (far be it for us to do so)?
Hyperbole or not, his language in any context aside from gamers, would have been most likely have been considered "libel" at best, and "hate speech" at worst.
It is unbecoming of a professional game developer, it is unbecoming of someone in the position to have his words heard world-wide, it is unbecoming of an adult, and it is unbecoming of a civilized human being.
To put it simply, "Didn't his momma teach him any better?".
Descent 3's community tried that sort of thing, a little after Descent 3 was released and it was apparent that it wasn't flying off the shelves.
A whole bunch of people worked on a very long, well-written article, explaining why their kind of game was better than "simple groundpounders". People went to pretty much every other forum they visited, and tried to do exactly what you're advocating.
It was a disaster. Every forum thread these people created ended with unpleasantness. Instead of changing minds, they found replies along the lines of "we know about XXXX, thats why we're avoiding it".
The situation you're contemplating would, inevitably, have the same result. Like it or not, there's a fairly strong "NMA is filled with whiners" vibe right now, especially since every forum thread I read about the recent magazine scans inevitably became "Oh my god, look what NMA is saying".
The only real way to disprove hate of NMA is to give people ample reason to assume that they aren't the pessimistic, overly critical people others assume they are.
I think Descent's disaster is easy enough to explain; trying to convince someone they should have the same tastes as you is folly. We can't make people like TB-games, and we shouldn't.
But this Fallout 3 looks painfully unoriginal and not that interesting. I think Oblivion let a lot of people down, at the end of the day, though it pleased a lot of people more.
I'm not interested in a kamikaze action to try to kill Bethesda's every effort. I'm interested in getting people to know exactly what's going on, in offering them alternatives to reading purely hype. Like or dislike Oblivion, nobody can argue that it played anything like how reviewers described it. That shouldn't happen again.
But this Fallout 3 looks painfully unoriginal and not that interesting. I think Oblivion let a lot of people down, at the end of the day, though it pleased a lot of people more.
I'm not interested in a kamikaze action to try to kill Bethesda's every effort. I'm interested in getting people to know exactly what's going on, in offering them alternatives to reading purely hype. Like or dislike Oblivion, nobody can argue that it played anything like how reviewers described it. That shouldn't happen again.
Seraphim Pwns U
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Brother None said:
Agreed. First time I was here was simply to look for some help with FO2. Years passed, and I came back because of the no-nonsense posts you had put up on Beth$oft's forums.
If anything, we should argue with facts and noticed patterns... not with virulence and anti-hype. Eventually, people'll come around. Pft... I did, and that says a lot.
deadairis
First time out of the vault
Well, when someone is attacking the fallout fan community, I do think it's important to make sense of who is where.
As for listening to the whole thing, and actually catching what was said...from the introductions, I certainly hope it was clear that Allen is one our editors, not a game developer. From the introductions, or from the host page for the podcast...not that it's directly related, but it's tough to believe people listened with an open mind and reacted logically when they miss things like that.
I didn't really fly off the handle at Allen's remarks because he quickly gave them context, and the initial statement was clearly hyperbole. I don't know there's any better reply to something hyperbolic to the point of silliness than simply ignoring it.
While a few people have already pointed out that libel doesn't really apply, I'm willing to point out that "hate speech" really doesn't apply to groups of fans of a game. Someday, some court may find that being a community member has the status necessary to make something like Allen's statement count as "hate speech," but as the world stands now it isn't -- and it's hyperbolic to claim it is.
"Would it be right" arguments seem silly, don't you think -- this thread has a moderator OKayed explicit death threat at Allen, personally, as well as a lethal suggestion that he be sodomized with a red-hot poker. Would it be right? It's not really right or wrong. It's silly hyperbole -- and it's worth a shrug at best.
As for listening to the whole thing, and actually catching what was said...from the introductions, I certainly hope it was clear that Allen is one our editors, not a game developer. From the introductions, or from the host page for the podcast...not that it's directly related, but it's tough to believe people listened with an open mind and reacted logically when they miss things like that.
I didn't really fly off the handle at Allen's remarks because he quickly gave them context, and the initial statement was clearly hyperbole. I don't know there's any better reply to something hyperbolic to the point of silliness than simply ignoring it.
While a few people have already pointed out that libel doesn't really apply, I'm willing to point out that "hate speech" really doesn't apply to groups of fans of a game. Someday, some court may find that being a community member has the status necessary to make something like Allen's statement count as "hate speech," but as the world stands now it isn't -- and it's hyperbolic to claim it is.
"Would it be right" arguments seem silly, don't you think -- this thread has a moderator OKayed explicit death threat at Allen, personally, as well as a lethal suggestion that he be sodomized with a red-hot poker. Would it be right? It's not really right or wrong. It's silly hyperbole -- and it's worth a shrug at best.
Seraphim Pwns U said:
Ahh, hyperbole. The excuse that never dies.
I doubt he actually wants us all to die, I'll give you that. However, this is not a case of semantics. What he said was hateful, pathetic, and petty. Coming from your average video game forum goer, this is something to be expected. However, he is an editor at a seemingly professional gaming news site.
I guess I can give him credit for saying what he truly believes. I can only imagine what Todd and Pete are saying about us behind closed doors.
I doubt he actually wants us all to die, I'll give you that. However, this is not a case of semantics. What he said was hateful, pathetic, and petty. Coming from your average video game forum goer, this is something to be expected. However, he is an editor at a seemingly professional gaming news site.
I guess I can give him credit for saying what he truly believes. I can only imagine what Todd and Pete are saying about us behind closed doors.
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That would require making outworlders understand the concept of cTRPG. No cTRPG - no real Fallout 3.Orzhov said:
Hello,
People made me curious about this Descent 3, disaster, what happened and what was the reason?
People made me curious about this Descent 3, disaster, what happened and what was the reason?
deadairis
First time out of the vault
The Dutch Ghost said:
Yeah, seconded...
deadairis said:
Whatever the context, some random guy i've never even heard of before just called me an arrogant idiot and wished me i died in a very horrible way, because i like a game. I think that dude should find a better way to express himself. He fucking sucks.
And keep in mind that any hate and anger shown in this thread is only a response to a provocation.
deadairis
First time out of the vault
Madbringer said:
On the response note, I have a question -- if someone says, say, a kid is acting like a brat. The kid then either: proceeds to pee in the person's face, punch them in the eye, and set their car on fire; or else the kid looks a bit repulsed, calls them a liar, and moves on. Which case is more likely to actually be a kid who is a brat -- that is, in which case do you think the person made an observation, and the actually bratty kid continued to act that way, and in which case do you think they were just being provocative and the kid wasn't actually a brat?
I'm not endorsing/not endorsing justifying/not justifying anything Allen said. But honestly, which version of that story makes you think "Yup, that's a brat, that guy called it," and which makes you think "What a trash talker?" Probably, the former case is actually a brat.
For the kids who just happen to hang out with this utterly horrible child and find themselves slandered -- "that kid and his friends are all brats!" -- find better friends is one answer. Tell your friends to find better ways to express themselves is another.
And as a note to my previous posts, the mods have removed the first death threat, as well as the explicit death threat of murder by Allen being sodomized with a red hot poker.
deadairis said:
That's a cute example, but you cannot judge an entire community of people from all over the world just because you burned yourself once or twice on a few representatives of this community. If he really just did that, it only shows how ignorant he is. Even amongst the hardcore Fallout fans not everyone thinks the same, we're not the god-damned Borg, we're a set group of individuals that share the love for Fallout. If he wants to offend someone, he should have thrown some names, not generalize in a very, very stupid way.
All that being said, i'm not honestly offended. But i find it a little disturbing, seeing as this guy is supposed to be a professional.
deadairis
First time out of the vault
Madbringer said:deadairis said:
That's a cute example, but you cannot judge an entire community of people from all over the world just because you burned yourself once or twice on a few representatives of this community. If he really just did that, it only shows how ignorant he is. Even amongst the hardcore Fallout fans not everyone thinks the same, we're not the god-damned Borg, we're a set group of individuals that share the love for Fallout. If he wants to offend someone, he should have thrown some names, not generalize in a very, very stupid way.
All that being said, i'm not honestly offended. But i find it a little disturbing, seeing as this guy is supposed to be a professional.
Very fair, and definitly along the lines of what we're discussing, but I will say that I don't think Allen wanted to offend people. If he did, well, he probably would have done just that. Much like the people saying the, frankly, totally reasonable to polite to rude to, also frankly, horriffic and inhuman things on this forum, I think he was just trying to express his frustration.
It's easy to point at other people on the forums posting stuff that is obviously over the top and say "Well, don't judge ME by that," but at the same time all of GameSpy is being judged by one editor's voice -- and all of his contributions are being judged by one frustrated sentance. Honestly, his clear issue -- as mentioned in the podcast -- is with people attacking Fallout 3 as soon as they knew Bethesda had the license, and not a thing otherwise. And even then, the issue isn't that he "wants to offend them," it's that they're attacking something that they know, literally, nothing about (since, hey, there wasn't anything to know yet). It's a lot more clear when listened to, as opposed to in an edited transcript.
Regardless, I really appreciate the community here taking the time to respond to me. I can't really ask you not to be irked, but I do really appreciate being able to get down to the brass tacks of the issue.
Seraphim Pwns U
It Wandered In From the Wastes
deadairis said:
Yes, I know that, but if you recall, and I quote:
"Oh, I didn't want to come out of the closet on this one either, but I used to work for Interplay where I was the Product Manager for Fallout Tactics..[continues onto rant about our idiocy]".
He might not have been a writer, he might not have been a programmer or an artist, or anyone of real significance... but doesn't being a Product Manager imply that he was the one who checked out the current trends and thought up all the "nifty little things that the consumers might enjoy"? Doesn't that imply that he worked with Marketing to find ways to get consumers to enjoy all those "nifty little things"?
I might be wrong... after all, I'm only an indie, and have no such need of Product Managers... or, because of the fact that I'm losing my hearing I mistook his voice for yours or your partner's, I am mistaken. But I'm pretty sure that's what he said.
Miss things like what? That he's one of your editors? I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss someone saying they were the Product Manager for FOT.
And for the record, I listened to most of the whole thing. I started getting sleepy around the 45 minute mark, though, IIRC.
*listening to it again* I don't hear a whole lot of "context" there, other than your partner crying out "background, context"... I hear a lot of anger, hate, unsubstantiated claims, and utter nonsense. From his anger, he switches to how he enjoyed the games, and then his loathing of us again. And then a string of sarcasm.
And on a lighter note... did you really do the fanfic thing?!
I *said*, and again I quote, "Hyperbole or not, his language in any context aside from gamers, would have been most likely have been considered "libel" at best, and "hate speech" at worst."
Key phrase, "in any context aside from gamers". Context, bud. Context. Or better yet... read the whole thing, not snippets. ^_~
Had I have seen it, I would've been equally upset at him too, truthfully, moreso, for the addition of hypocricy... because wishing ill upon another, even in jest... it's just not right. I don't care what side of what fence anyone's on. Too many feelings get hurt, too many people are maligned by others by useless hyperbole... it's all nonsense and politics-playing... and I, for one, hate both.
So, I'm tossing the ball into your court... what can be done about this situation to rectify it? Shall we stop loving the game we hold so dear? Shall we stop trying to protect the franchise which we enjoy so much? Shall we stop speaking in the hopes that our silence will change the minds of Bethesda?
In Todd Howard's IGN interview, he said that one of his biggest fears was, "that they're [gamers in general] let down by something we didn't expect". How can we tell Bethesda in what ways we are being let down, if we do not say anything?
So... How do we rectify this? I personally have asked for an apology and a retraction. Now, what can *I* do, as an individual of the Fallout fan community, to make "all things cool"?
deadairis
First time out of the vault
Sorry, I just wanted to make clear that Allen is no longer in any way working for...well, anyone but GameSpy. Someone referred to him as a "game developer," "ex-game developer" or "ex-developer turned editor" would have been more clear. I didn't mean to call you out for not using his appropriate former title.
"Key phrase, "in any context aside from gamers". Context, bud. Context. Or better yet... read the whole thing, not snippets. ^_~"
Well, why even bring it up? It seemed like you were implying that excluding gamers was inappropriate. If not, what was the point?
In terms of, well, making the community response resonable...Allen's a huge Fallout fan. A stupidly devoted Fallout fan. and for the reasons -- the context -- he talks about in the 'cast, it just drove him nuts to hear people ragging on the project when they knew nothing other than "Bethesda's developing it." Like Howard hinted, like I've mentioned on a few forums regarding previews, early bad hype can kill something as fragile as a game -- dead. And so when he hears people spout off, possibly killing the latest game in a series he'd basically given up hope of seeing a sequel for, his reaction is "trying to protect the franchise which we enjoy so much."
As for what Allen specifically said, I really don't have anything to say one way or the other about it at this point. I'm pleased to see so many people on this forum who I'd be happy to be part of a community with, no question; but the depths that some people in the community sink to (yeah, I'm stuck on the sodomy threat. That was pretty vile) are such that it's unsettling to be a part of the community as a whole.
So, how to deal with the issue? If it doesn't matter -- if people should live and let live, even when people offer horrible things to them, verbally or otherwise -- do so. If it does matter, get the various parts of the House of NMA in order so that what Allen said was factually incorrect, as opposed to being an irksome but -- when you see some of these posts -- understandable position regarding a community that allows people who threaten murder and rape to remain in their ranks.
Beyond that, the GameSpy staff is going to talk tomorrow, we'll see what pans out. I'll be on this forum checking things out and making time to talk with whoever wants to talk during the next week or so. I really appreciate having someone who seems focused on just getting the game they dream of out -- so sorry if I come across as cranky here. I'm about ready to drop for the day, but your post seemed like it deserved an answer tonight.
Cheers
Patrick
"Key phrase, "in any context aside from gamers". Context, bud. Context. Or better yet... read the whole thing, not snippets. ^_~"
Well, why even bring it up? It seemed like you were implying that excluding gamers was inappropriate. If not, what was the point?
In terms of, well, making the community response resonable...Allen's a huge Fallout fan. A stupidly devoted Fallout fan. and for the reasons -- the context -- he talks about in the 'cast, it just drove him nuts to hear people ragging on the project when they knew nothing other than "Bethesda's developing it." Like Howard hinted, like I've mentioned on a few forums regarding previews, early bad hype can kill something as fragile as a game -- dead. And so when he hears people spout off, possibly killing the latest game in a series he'd basically given up hope of seeing a sequel for, his reaction is "trying to protect the franchise which we enjoy so much."
As for what Allen specifically said, I really don't have anything to say one way or the other about it at this point. I'm pleased to see so many people on this forum who I'd be happy to be part of a community with, no question; but the depths that some people in the community sink to (yeah, I'm stuck on the sodomy threat. That was pretty vile) are such that it's unsettling to be a part of the community as a whole.
So, how to deal with the issue? If it doesn't matter -- if people should live and let live, even when people offer horrible things to them, verbally or otherwise -- do so. If it does matter, get the various parts of the House of NMA in order so that what Allen said was factually incorrect, as opposed to being an irksome but -- when you see some of these posts -- understandable position regarding a community that allows people who threaten murder and rape to remain in their ranks.
Beyond that, the GameSpy staff is going to talk tomorrow, we'll see what pans out. I'll be on this forum checking things out and making time to talk with whoever wants to talk during the next week or so. I really appreciate having someone who seems focused on just getting the game they dream of out -- so sorry if I come across as cranky here. I'm about ready to drop for the day, but your post seemed like it deserved an answer tonight.
Cheers
Patrick
Seraphim Pwns U said:
Role-Player
A Smooth-Skin
Small bit o'conspiracy:
I was fighting the usual uphill battle at GameFAQs, in a thread entitled "Gamespy hates Vloorshad" (the title being a reference to a good user there who doesn't give people any slack). People were being their usual asses regarding NMA - while not supporting Rausch's desire that we'd become bloated, disease-ridden ghouls under the sun they were sympathetic to his claim of the ignorance and general vileness of the community.
Your intrepid and lone one-man show was pointing out the usual: a media which is quick to post negative news concerning NMA but rarely, if ever, allows them to express themselves; Something Awful's trolling and forum invasions; and so on. The discussion was heated but civil - there were no moderated messages or anything like that.
And then the thread was all but removed. Gone in a New York Minute [/Max Payne].
I can't find the thread anywhere else on either the GameFAQs or Gamespot forums, and it was one of those rare ocasions where I did not made a backup of the thread in my HD so I can't really show it :/ There was simply no warning or even reason as to why it would have been removed - yet it was.
I was fighting the usual uphill battle at GameFAQs, in a thread entitled "Gamespy hates Vloorshad" (the title being a reference to a good user there who doesn't give people any slack). People were being their usual asses regarding NMA - while not supporting Rausch's desire that we'd become bloated, disease-ridden ghouls under the sun they were sympathetic to his claim of the ignorance and general vileness of the community.
Your intrepid and lone one-man show was pointing out the usual: a media which is quick to post negative news concerning NMA but rarely, if ever, allows them to express themselves; Something Awful's trolling and forum invasions; and so on. The discussion was heated but civil - there were no moderated messages or anything like that.
And then the thread was all but removed. Gone in a New York Minute [/Max Payne].
I can't find the thread anywhere else on either the GameFAQs or Gamespot forums, and it was one of those rare ocasions where I did not made a backup of the thread in my HD so I can't really show it :/ There was simply no warning or even reason as to why it would have been removed - yet it was.