GamesRadar - The Infinite Potential of Fallout 3

[Eyenixon]

If you want to be a technical dweeb, then you could mention that Spacewar! substantiates the fact that real time video games are in fact older than turn based ones.

 

[mandrake776]

Like how Fallout 3 has been shoe-horned into the tired, recycled Oblivion paradigm?

I'm sorry that you hate the huge Oblivion series. All one of it. God, how tired.

 

[Mephestys]

Like how Fallout 3 has been shoe-horned into the tired, recycled Oblivion paradigm?

I'm sorry that you hate the huge Oblivion series. All one of it. God, how tired.

I'm pretty sure they were referring to the entire Elder Scrolls series, since Oblivion is actually game number four in that. However, to be fair, there aren't many games similar to Oblivion... so how is it tired and recycled, precisely?

 

[mandrake776]

I'm pretty sure they were referring to the entire Elder Scrolls series, since Oblivion is actually game number four in that.

I would dearly like to believe that.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

But if a game series started out TB/ISO or RT/TPP, it should continue that way. I would hate an ISO TES game.

Game series have to evolve or they die. Not every evolution is successful, but look at Final Fantasy, people were getting noticeably tired of the same formula, and so it was changed

No, that really wasn't the reason it was changed. The reason it was changed was because of the popularity of MMOs but FFXI and FFXII are both spinoffs, despite their names (FFXI is widely referred to as FFO[Online]). FFXII wasn't better than previous games, it was different and had the most gameplay problems (poor design; which were conviently ignored by the press) of any FF game I've played. It wasn't evolution, it was a change from JRPG to singleplayer MMO.

Resident Evil became more action oriented

It switched the focus from survival horror to third-person shooting, thus changing the target demographic and thus it's subgenre. It wasn't evolution, it was a change from survival horror presented in TPP to TPS with survival horror elements. Whether or not RE4 is different enough to not be a sequel is arguable; for me, it's close but I'd probably say that it's simply a bad sequel but a good game.

Metroid got an FPS makeover.

Metroid Prime isn't a sequel, it's a reinterpreted spinoff. Many of the core concepts of the gameplay were brought over but the presentation is entirely different and the gameplay is significantly different. It falls into a different genre and instead of pretending that it was a sequel Nintendo did the smart thing and made a spinoff serries and focused on making games in it.

Evolution is Mario Bros. through New Super Mario Bros. while change is Super Mario Bros to Mario 64. That said, Mario 64 still has enough of the spirit of the old games, made a necessary change (there were other ways they could have gone about it) to move from 2D platformer to 3D platformer, and is good enough to wiggle it's way into being accepted as a sequel (also helps that Mario is the mascot of the system so people give it more leeway, especially with the Mario games that have nothing to do with the main serries) when it should be a spinoff serries.

Like how Fallout 3 has been shoe-horned into the tired, recycled Oblivion paradigm?

I'm sorry that you hate the huge Oblivion series. All one of it. God, how tired.

I'm pretty sure they were referring to the entire Elder Scrolls series, since Oblivion is actually game number four in that. However, to be fair, there aren't many games similar to Oblivion... so how is it tired and recycled, precisely?

Speaking in terms of the market at large, it's FPS/ARPG (which aren't common but aren't rare)(wouldn't work for the statement). Speaking in terms of Bethesda, it's the only way they make their blockbuster games and they have yet to create a new mold (likely what he was talking about).

 

[mandrake776]

No, that really wasn't the reason it was changed. The reason it was changed was because of the popularity of MMOs but FFXI and FFXII are both spinoffs, despite their names (FFXI is widely referred to as FFO[Online]). FFXII wasn't better than previous games, it was different and had the most gameplay problems (poor design; which were conviently ignored by the press) of any FF game I've played. It wasn't evolution, it was a change from JRPG to singleplayer MMO.

You're arguing that FFXII is a spinoff!? I... don't even know where to start.

[quote'It switched the focus from survival horror to third-person shooting, thus changing the target demographic and thus it's subgenre. It wasn't evolution, it was a change from survival horror presented in TPP to TPS with survival horror elements. Whether or not RE4 is different enough to not be a sequel is arguable; for me, it's close but I'd probably say that it's simply a bad sequel but a good game.[/quote]
It is, first off, an amazing sequel, and secondly, a great game. The difference is mostly an aesthetic one, with the camera angle change and the greater flexibility with aiming. As aiming in the other RE games is really, really bad, this is definitely an evolution.

Metroid Prime isn't a sequel, it's a reinterpreted spinoff. Many of the core concepts of the gameplay were brought over but the presentation is entirely different and the gameplay is significantly different. It falls into a different genre and instead of pretending that it was a sequel Nintendo did the smart thing and made a spinoff serries and focused on making games in it.

It's not a spinoff, it's a main series game. The whole metroid series has one continuity, and MP is in it.

Speaking in terms of the market at large, it's FPS/ARPG (which aren't common but aren't rare)(wouldn't work for the statement). Speaking in terms of Bethesda, it's the only way they make their blockbuster games and they have yet to create a new mold (likely what he was talking about).

As I said, I hope he was referring to the series.

Oh, and to the guy who asked if I thought SH: 0rigin's combat was better, I'm referring to Silent Hill: Homecoming.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

You're arguing that FFXII is a spinoff!? I... don't even know where to start.

I'm assuming that we agree that FFXI isn't a FF game so I'm not mentioning it. The gameplay is completely different from previous installations (adopted MMO gameplay with adaptations for singleplayer play) and has significantly less/more spread out plot (plot scenes and plot conversation) than all of the previous games since FFIV (except FFV), certainly less than FFVII through FFX.

FFXII is in the same category as FFXI (which puts it with FFT), the gameplay is just too different to be a sequel with the difference being that Square hasn't admitted it yet (not sure if they have with FFXI but they also refer to it as FFO so I think they've quietly conceded the point with it).

It is, first off, an amazing sequel, and secondly, a great game. The difference is mostly an aesthetic one, with the camera angle change and the greater flexibility with aiming. As aiming in the other RE games is really, really bad, this is definitely an evolution.

The game is significantly more action oriented and significantly less horror oriented than previous installments thus it's a poor sequel. I already said that I really enjoyed the game. Yes, aiming was improved (it evolved) but the game lacked any scary/surprising scenes (jump out of chair moments) and thus was worse in that aspect. It also provided so much ammo that after the first hour or two of playing, one never has an issue with having too little ammo and in fact run into having too much fairly regularly.

It's not a spinoff, it's a main series game. The whole metroid series has one continuity, and MP is in it.

There is only one continuity but that doesn't mean that Metroid Prime is any more of a sequel than Halo Wars will be. It's a spinoff which has become the development focus (ex Wario puzzle games being produced instead of Wario Land games) that is also a canonical sequel.

 

[mandrake776]

I'm assuming that we agree that FFXI isn't a FF game so I'm not mentioning it. The gameplay is completely different from previous installations (adopted MMO gameplay with adaptations for singleplayer play) and has significantly less/more spread out plot (plot scenes and plot conversation) than all of the previous games since FFIV (except FFV), certainly less than FFVII through FFX.

FFXII is in the same category as FFXI (which puts it with FFT), the gameplay is just too different to be a sequel with the difference being that Square hasn't admitted it yet (not sure if they have with FFXI but they also refer to it as FFO so I think they've quietly conceded the point with it).

I think they realized they screwed the pooch with the over theatricality of FF7-9 with many fans. Many people complained about the lack of interactivity with FFX, so they ramped it up quite a bit. I think if you look closely, the actual gameplay is very close to the other FF games. The only real difference is not going to a different screen when fighting, which I think is a very positive change.

The game is significantly more action oriented and significantly less horror oriented than previous installments thus it's a poor sequel.

No, it's a great sequel, it takes what was good about the games, throws away what was bad and delivers a more fulfilling experience.

I already said that I really enjoyed the game. Yes, aiming was improved (it evolved) but the game lacked any scary/surprising scenes (jump out of chair moments) and thus was worse in that aspect.

Oven man. Regenerators. That thing that comes after you in the hanging cages. Those damnable dogs.

It also provided so much ammo that after the first hour or two of playing, one never has an issue with having too little ammo and in fact run into having too much fairly regularly.

That's pretty much my experience with every RE game after the first time through, this one increased the number of enemies sharply so they had to increase the ammunition by the same amount.

There is only one continuity but that doesn't mean that Metroid Prime is any more of a sequel than Halo Wars will be. It's a spinoff which has become the development focus (ex Wario puzzle games being produced instead of Wario Land games) that is also a canonical sequel.

I honestly think that the Metroid main series is now the Prime series, and that the old series has pretty much died off. Not that I wouldn't appreciate another Metroid 3 type game, but I'm not going to say that Metroid Prime isn't Metroid, that would be silly, as it's clearly the creator's intent. Is it evolution of the series when the old model dies off and the new one takes over? I'd say so.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I think they realized they screwed the pooch with the over theatricality of FF7-9 with many fans. Many people complained about the lack of interactivity with FFX, so they ramped it up quite a bit. I think if you look closely, the actual gameplay is very close to the other FF games. The only real difference is not going to a different screen when fighting, which I think is a very positive change.

Combat is completely different (it plays like an MMO designed for a controller), has less variety (amount of skills/magic/summoning/limit breaks), and ends up being completely controlled by the computer except against bosses (though you spend the entire game improving the AI, starting the game with terrible AI). The game is much more hands off and lacks the plot scenes/conversations which would naturally be implemented to make up for it. Also, where does this complaint about FF7-9 having too much story come from? And do you mean lack of plot interaction in FFX? There is just as little in every FF game except FFVI, they are all linear games including FFXII, they just added a lot of MMO (ie grind happy) side quests in FFXII. What do you see being the same in FFXII's combat and previous FF games' combat?

No, it's a great sequel, it takes what was good about the games, throws away what was bad and delivers a more fulfilling experience.

It fails to excel at the areas which the previous games focused (horror survival) by providing larges amounts of resources, large numbers unintimidating (except for bosses) enemies, a plot without twists, and few surprise moments. It did improve and adding more focus to supportive elements of the game (saving no longer limited by an item, combat controls were better, and more focus on combat). I liked the game but it really did fall short where previous games excelled (which were the focus) even if it did do better in other areas (which became it's focus).

I honestly think that the Metroid main series is now the Prime series, and that the old series has pretty much died off. Not that I wouldn't appreciate another Metroid 3 type game, but I'm not going to say that Metroid Prime isn't Metroid, that would be silly, as it's clearly the creator's intent. Is it evolution of the series when the old model dies off and the new one takes over? I'd say so.

I never said that Metroid Prime isn't Metroid, just that it isn't a sequel but a spinoff (think of it as a reinterpretation) which is the direction they want to go with the serries for now. Metroid Prime is just as much an evolution of the Metroid serries as FFT is of the FF serries. Just because it isn't a sequel doesn't mean that it can't be a good sister serries.

Back to Fallout 3, Fallout 3 is a sequel more like Guilty Gear 2 is, they're mislabeled spin offs.

 

[thefalloutfan]

But even so, every iteration of the elder scrolls since Arena has become increasingly dumbed down(consolised)

I consider Daggerfall to actually be a step up from Arena, but I do agree that everything since TES II has mostly been a process of dumbing down the RPG aspects and bolstering the superficial aspects.

I have a feeling that's just what we're getting with Fallout now, downhill after the second game.

As a TES Fan, I have to disagree. Daggerfall was better than Arena IMO too, but Morrowind was just wonderful. The exploration, getting lost while trying to find your way to an NPC/enemy/cave, and the whole other aspects about the game. I just loved Morrowind, can't say it's 'dumbed down', not at all. Though I played Morrowind before Daggerfall (I played MW first then went on to play the other previous games), so MW is kinda, erm, special hehe.

 

[pkt-zer0]

The gameplay is completely different from previous installations (adopted MMO gameplay with adaptations for singleplayer play)

It's called "RTwP". Knights of the Old Republic would be another example. FF games have been using RTwP since FF4, except without movement, actually.

Not sure why you'd want to use the FF games, of all things, as an example of sequel continuity, though, when even the second game was built with "hey, let's do something different now" in mind. Then you have Kitase's influence on the series that resulted in the "lol cinematics" school of RPG design. The differences between games are not that surprising, though, given that they're spread across at least four-five teams or so.

 

[reticulate]

Then again, maybe you’d like the stations that play 1950s radio plays, or the stations that play music from the first Fallout game.

They included the original Fallout soundtrack in the game???

My assumption is the 50's music from the first Fallout game, not the game play music. Though it sure sounds like the ambient muzak is included by the way article is worded.

Considering the small number of licensed tracks used in the first two I'm going to vote with it being the ambient stuff.

It's a great idea and probably deserves more coverage than a single mention in one preview, especially for fans of the first two games.

 

[Ausir]

Very doubtful. He probably means the "Maybe" song.

 

[mandrake776]

Combat is completely different (it plays like an MMO designed for a controller), has less variety (amount of skills/magic/summoning/limit breaks), and ends up being completely controlled by the computer except against bosses (though you spend the entire game improving the AI, starting the game with terrible AI). The game is much more hands off and lacks the plot scenes/conversations which would naturally be implemented to make up for it. Also, where does this complaint about FF7-9 having too much story come from? And do you mean lack of plot interaction in FFX? There is just as little in every FF game except FFVI, they are all linear games including FFXII, they just added a lot of MMO (ie grind happy) side quests in FFXII. What do you see being the same in FFXII's combat and previous FF games' combat?

Final Fantasy 12's combat is just the ATB system moved into the regular game world. Those grind happy quests are staples of FF, they've been there since Final Fantasy 4. The difference between watching a lot of video and reading a lot of text is that with the text, the player feels more a part of it as they have to advance it manually. Yes, I'm serious, and it's true.

It fails to excel at the areas which the previous games focused (horror survival) by providing larges amounts of resources, large numbers unintimidating (except for bosses) enemies

Except for armaduras, novistadors, garradors, regenerators, those damn dogs.

a plot without twists

Krauser, Ada, Wesker... and seriously, the plot of 4 is right on line with the others, but it realizes that it's silly and has fun with it.

[/quote]and few surprise moments.[/quote]
Few scripted surprise moments. They added the ability of the game to do surprise moments on the fly by making the enemies act in sometimes unpredictable ways or giving them the ability to appear from off-screen.

It did improve and adding more focus to supportive elements of the game (saving no longer limited by an item, combat controls were better, and more focus on combat). I liked the game but it really did fall short where previous games excelled (which were the focus) even if it did do better in other areas (which became it's focus).

It in no way fell short of the previous games. I'm sorry, but it's superior to all of them except possibly REmake.

I never said that Metroid Prime isn't Metroid, just that it isn't a sequel but a spinoff (think of it as a reinterpretation) which is the direction they want to go with the serries for now. Metroid Prime is just as much an evolution of the Metroid serries as FFT is of the FF serries. Just because it isn't a sequel doesn't mean that it can't be a good sister serries.

It's more like they did MP, and realized that it was better and more accessible than the previous Metroid games and so have dropped the old ones in favor of this new style. I'm saying that it might have started as a side story, but now it's the main series.

Back to Fallout 3, Fallout 3 is a sequel more like Guilty Gear 2 is, they're mislabeled spin offs.

Guilty Gear is that fighting game with the music references, right?

 

[Humpsalot]

It is funny how a simple name change could skip 90% of the issue. We all agree its not a copy and paste sequel to 1 and 2.

Could we start bad mouthing the game for reasons like: no break limits, silly ammo, back up quest npc's, invisible walls, taking super mutants down with pistols, un-interactive environments, the so far bad main quest, supermen children? Come on focus. lol

 

[thefalloutfan]

no break limits, silly ammo, back up quest npc's, invisible walls, taking super mutants down with pistols, un-interactive environments, the so far bad main quest, supermen children? Come on focus. lol

Back up quest NPCs and No break limits, what are those?

And what's wrong with taking down super mutants with pistols? And the "so far bad main quest"? Wtf is that about? We don't know anything about the main quest, except to find our father. It will *obviously* change, the objective I mean, just like the water chip objective changed, just like the GECK objective changed. Ammo doesn't bother me in the least, I don't think I've ever used AP ammo in FO2, it didn't seem to make any difference. And invisible walls could have been something else, though that's a very minor issue (for me).

The rest, I agree with (invincible children, indestructible environments).

 

[mandrake776]

no break limits

What? What's that mean?

silly ammo

Are you referring to the rock-it launcher?

back up quest npc's

Yeah, screw them for trying to stick to the right feeling and give you the opportunity to kill more people.

invisible walls

Yeah, the invisible walls in FO3 are much worse than in Fallout 1 or 2.

taking super mutants down with pistols

I literally just did this in Fallout 2.

un-interactive environments

You want destructible terrain?

the so far bad main quest

Yes, the tiny bit of the main quest we know of is totally worth harping on about.

supermen children?

You mean that they're not killable? With the trouble they had with the drugs, you don't think killable children would be problematic? It's completely arbitrary, but it's not Bethesda that made the stigma.

 

[Iozeph]

As a TES Fan, I have to disagree. Daggerfall was better than Arena IMO too, but Morrowind was just wonderful. The exploration, getting lost while trying to find your way to an NPC/enemy/cave, and the whole other aspects about the game. I just loved Morrowind, can't say it's 'dumbed down', not at all. Though I played Morrowind before Daggerfall (I played MW first then went on to play the other previous games), so MW is kinda, erm, special hehe.

Even though it reduced the amount of Tamriel you could explore, Daggerfall was pretty much the high point of the series IMO. It was still crude but it offered you the most options of any of the games. Having your own ship was nice, horses, as well as horse-drawn wagons you could leave outside dungeons so that you could load them with loot to take back to town. Little touches like that. So many factions to deal with as well that just sort of fell by the wayside in later games.

Daggerfall marked the end of what I found really great in TES and the beginning of consolitis.

Morrowind... Two words sum up my disgust for that game:

Cliff Racer.

That said, Morrowind's saving grace is that is was, by far, the easiest game in the series to mod.

But Oblivion- Outside of the archery(which got really great with mods) it fell flat. The magic was stale(and incredibly limiting), the quests were stale(barring perhaps knights of the nine- which was the one stand out moment where my character didn't feel like a piss boy).

In the end I appreciate what they tried to do with Oblivion- telling a story through Martin etc. But it really ruined the game. Never before in a game had my character felt so incidental. Trivial even.

The point of RPG's- especially Sandbox style RPG's is that it's your character's story and by extension(for as long as you choose to inhabit the character) *your* story. And it's one of the major ways in which Bethesda's approach differs from the old Black Isle folks. The story takes a back seat to the OMG GEE WHIZ we have a sandbox!" B.S. blitz.(Something the "journalists" in the linked article fell for hook, line, and sinker.)

I like freedom as much as the next person, but I was so disgusted with Oblivion's "story telling" that I ignored the main plot as long as I could and rode around doing anything that I could think instead- with no consequence until I finally buckled down and beat the game at level 2. Just to have it behind me.

Whereas, in Fallout, I knew I had to get that water chip(or that G.E.C.K.) because if I screwed off there would be hell to pay. Take too long and the game just ends! Fallout kept me hooked by making leveling something I actually looked forward to instead of a punishment. I wanted to learn about the locations and the people that inhabited them. There was still plenty of time and room for exploration but Fallout had a pacing, an urgency, and a wit that Bethesda just can't seem to capture.

Black Isle made games where you could encounter exploitation- whether it be slavery- child slavery/killing, drug use, prostitution, gambling etc. It showed humanity's dark underbelly through a lens of black humor that at some points made me ashamed to be laughing out loud.(but chuckling I was nonetheless, because in a world like that if you can't laugh you end up crying).

Bethesda?

Their idea of "mature gaming" is exploding body parts ad nauseum, and having an 8 year old say "fuck".

Awesome Todd, just awsome...

 

[Tagaziel]

The above poster is awesome.

 

[thefalloutfan]

As a TES Fan, I have to disagree. Daggerfall was better than Arena IMO too, but Morrowind was just wonderful. The exploration, getting lost while trying to find your way to an NPC/enemy/cave, and the whole other aspects about the game. I just loved Morrowind, can't say it's 'dumbed down', not at all. Though I played Morrowind before Daggerfall (I played MW first then went on to play the other previous games), so MW is kinda, erm, special hehe.

Even though it reduced the amount of Tamriel you could explore, Daggerfall was pretty much the high point of the series IMO. It was still crude but it offered you the most options of any of the games. Having your own ship was nice, horses, as well as horse-drawn wagons you could leave outside dungeons so that you could load them with loot to take back to town. Little touches like that. So many factions to deal with as well that just sort of fell by the wayside in later games.

Daggerfall marked the end of what I found really great in TES and the beginning of consolitis.

Morrowind... Two words sum up my disgust for that game:

Cliff Racer.

That said, Morrowind's saving grace is that is was, by far, the easiest game in the series to mod.

But Oblivion- Outside of the archery(which got really great with mods) it fell flat. The magic was stale(and incredibly limiting), the quests were stale(barring perhaps knights of the nine- which was the one stand out moment where my character didn't feel like a piss boy).

In the end I appreciate what they tried to do with Oblivion- telling a story through Martin etc. But it really ruined the game. Never before in a game had my character felt so incidental. Trivial even.

The point of RPG's- especially Sandbox style RPG's is that it's your character's story and by extension(for as long as you choose to inhabit the character) *your* story. And it's one of the major ways in which Bethesda's approach differs from the old Black Isle folks. The story takes a back seat to the OMG GEE WHIZ we have a sandbox!" B.S. blitz.(Something the "journalists" in the linked article fell for hook, line, and sinker.)

I like freedom as much as the next person, but I was so disgusted with Oblivion's "story telling" that I ignored the main plot as long as I could and rode around doing anything that I could think instead- with no consequence until I finally buckled down and beat the game at level 2. Just to have it behind me.

Whereas, in Fallout, I knew I had to get that water chip(or that G.E.C.K.) because if I screwed off there would be hell to pay. Take too long and the game just ends! Fallout kept me hooked by making leveling something I actually looked forward to instead of a punishment. I wanted to learn about the locations and the people that inhabited them. There was still plenty of time and room for exploration but Fallout had a pacing, an urgency, and a wit that Bethesda just can't seem to capture.

Black Isle made games where you could encounter exploitation- whether it be slavery- child slavery/killing, drug use, prostitution, gambling etc. It showed humanity's dark underbelly through a lens of black humor that at some points made me ashamed to be laughing out loud.(but chuckling I was nonetheless, because in a world like that if you can't laugh you end up crying).

Bethesda?

Their idea of "mature gaming" is exploding body parts ad nauseum, and having an 8 year old say "fuck".

Awesome Todd, just awsome...

Regarding Oblivion, agreed on everything, I was very disappointed. I still *hope* that TES V will be different, too many a times have I written insanely huge posts tackling Oblivion and what went wrong, and what could be fixed. At least one of those times I got a reply from a dev.

Anyway, Fallout and TES are very different games, in every possible aspect. I won't say one series is better than the other, because I love both. They have something common though, FO1+2 and and insanely crap game (FOT:BoS), and TES1-3, and Oblivion

This fallout is quite different than the previous fallouts, we can all agree on that. I still think/hope/believe I shall enjoy this new game. I do wish it's as good as I hope it will be. Even though from the begining I said that gameplay (Iso, TB etc) made Fallout, 'fallout' for me. We'll see. TPP and RT don't bother me at all, in fact I like that, but I expect a game to continue using the same base mechanics; like I wouldn't expect TESV to be isometric turn based, just because it shouldn't.