I Am Losing Faith in Humanity

Dapper Dan Man

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Tell me, tell me true, what nobility is left in spent humanity? What is there worth fighting for in a race of abject slaves to ideology and doctrine, serving a cruel and malevolent God? Where is the love and concern for our fellow suffering souls on this path, that we should give up freedom to be enslaved willingly to those who will promise us freedom from determining right and wrong of our own accord?

I am sorry that I am most bitter, but this issue has left me deeply depressed. The sordid affairs of the world today have left me dangerously close to losing my sanity, and I guess this is somewhat of a cry for help. Who can help me then, and tell me why humanity deserves to be defended? For I wish to stand with the suffering, and defend them against this cruel God, despite the uncaring and ignorant majority. I care, and I care deeply, but I cannot seem to overcome the deep and abiding despair I have for humanity as a whole, not to mention its treachery to those who seek to free it.


Please, anyone, help or comments?
 
Since when is humanity supposed to be noble?

That's like "purpose of existence", it's just something we make up, apparently our existence needs a purpose. Really? Why? Because we say so.

Same with good in humanity. Hell, the whole concept good is our own.

It seems so odd to measure yourself with such a stretchable rod.
 
Because what the hell else am I supposed to believe Kharn? I have already lost faith in general benevolence, am I also to cast aside belief that humanity can free itself from its self-imposed shackles and embrace freedom?

Honestly, why do YOU exist then Kharn, as well as myself and others? Pray tell, for I am most interested. Lacking any fundamental drive in humanity bettering itself, or embracing misanthropy and giving up and dying, what is left? Hedonism? "Let us be merry, for tomorrow we die?"
 
Why? I have no reason to exist, I just do.

It's interesting how people always think that means you have to be a hedonist. Does my life and my actions strike you as hedonistic?

There's no purpose in anything but what you make for yourself. Pre-given purposes bother me, even though I'm a determinist, yet not a fatalist.

As for humanity, it can be as good or bad as it wants to be, it's not my responsibility and quite frankly not my problem. I don't feel personally offended or sad because humanity decides to be pretty bad overal, especially since the definition of bad is pretty arbitrary.

To me, all the bad just makes the good stand out. And I love good.
 
Why do I exist? Because I'd rather not die, that's why.

I'm not sure why you need to lose faith in humanity. Human commonality ends at genetics. The only thing you can have faith in is yourself, and that's all that really matters.
 
Evil = seeking to harm other beings physically, emotionally, or psychologically willfully. That seems a fairly easy answer in my sense.


As for the rest, fine, that is respectable I suppose. Trust that I DON'T wish to feel responsible for the actions of humanity, but somehow, I do. For whatever reason, I feel like I can do more to help humanity to not completely fuck itself up the ass and fade away out of the cosmos. I guess that is an insane thought, but in the percieved absence of any benevolent force, should we not seek to make life easier and more pleasant for one another, not just resolve to be uninvolved?
 
I exist to consume good food and alcohol, fuck hard, kill things and above all, bring Glory and Honour to the Motherland, my Family and my Dogs by executing Shamil Basayev in a suitably swift but remarkably painful manner. If I'm lucky, I might produce some little versions of myself to carry on this proud legacy.

Is that dragging down the average goodness factor on Humanity? I'm glad I don't care.
 
The Commissar said:
Shamil Basayev

Shoot him once for me, what?

Though then we'll have to miss the comedy gold of him saying he made Moscow blackout.

"I MADE THE ENERGY GO WITH MY MAGIC!!!!"

Almost as funny as the mayor and his I control the weather-spiels.

Fireblade said:
Evil = seeking to harm other beings physically, emotionally, or psychologically willfully. That seems a fairly easy answer in my sense.

And yet it isn't. You willfully harm the Chinese economy by shopping in the West, because of unfair trade concessions. Hell, every time you pay the taxes or buy groceries you're supporting agricultural injustices that atre starving Africa.

's not that easy, it's not.

Is our love Commissar evil for killing people or good because of the why?

Fireblade said:
As for the rest, fine, that is respectable I suppose. Trust that I DON'T wish to feel responsible for the actions of humanity, but somehow, I do. For whatever reason, I feel like I can do more to help humanity to not completely fuck itself up the ass and fade away out of the cosmos. I guess that is an insane thought, but in the percieved absence of any benevolent force, should we not seek to make life easier and more pleasant for one another, not just resolve to be uninvolved?

Yeh, yeh, schmet, schmet, in an ideal world and all

Doing good makes you feel a lot better, y'know ;)
 
Kharn said:
And yet it isn't. You willfully harm the Chinese economy by shopping in the West, because of unfair trade concessions. Hell, every time you pay the taxes or buy groceries you're supporting agricultural injustices that atre starving Africa.

There IS a difference between willfully harming the Chinese and willfully SEEKING to harm the Chinese.
 
Specialist said:
There IS a difference between willfully harming the Chinese and willfully SEEKING to harm the Chinese.

Yes, but is one good and the other evil or are they both evil, in a way?
 
I remember this dumb religious chick was talking about how we lose morals if we have sex if we are underaged, to which I replied, "since when did we have morals to begin with?". I think that sums it up.
 
humans are, and forever will be, selfish beasts. it's in our nature. while many are less selfish than others there is no denying that it exists in everyone.

that being said... [rant] what bothers me most in the world today is how groups force their opinions on others. christianity is a shining example of this. they claim they are trying to save souls... but do they know that their path is the right one, or do they just have "faith" that theirs is correct. faith doesnt amount to a hill of beans. i once had faith that my parents would be there when i needed them. nope. mom - cancer - '96 and dad - heart attack - '00. faith is overrated.[/rant]
 
Kharn said:
Yes, but is one good and the other evil or are they both evil, in a way?

One is acceptable, and the other evil. Seeking to harm someone is clearly evil (no matter how deranged a person can be - I never did trust those insanity pleas), and the other is merely trying to get along.
 
I'd like to Quote the pofets, Slayer, If i may. "God hates us all."

I think that about sums up the current state of affairs in the world today.

Specilist, Hurting someone, weither intentionally or not, is Still hurting someone. Fuck the concepts of good and evil and morality. Throw that damn garbage out the window. Hurt is hurt, reguardless of the justification. It's just somthing you learn to live with. Like the thought of your bullets ripping through the walls and roof a large apartment building, knowing that innocent people are sleeping inside. But the fucker on the roof with an AK 47 trying to kill you, endangered Their lives..
 
Elissar said:
Specilist, Hurting someone, weither intentionally or not, is Still hurting someone.
If someone steps on your toe by accident, you generally forgive them (unless you're a tightarse or they were doing something extremely stupid). If someone steps on your toe because they want to hurt you, you get pissed off at them. One is horrible. One is acceptable.

--EDIT--

By the way, are you drunk Elissar?
 
Fireblade said:
Tell me, tell me true, what nobility is left in spent humanity?

The same nobility that there has always been, if you believe that there ever was any. I believe that there was and still is, because I am a pessimistic-optimist. Humanity is not spent, just more populous.

I don't believe in some intervening supernatural power, good or bad. Developments are the result of chance and the collective behaviour of humanity. It is not an entity with a conscience, but a collection of individuals going about their daily lives. I exist because of highly sophisticated evolutionary processes and because I say so. I don’t think everyone has a purpose really (see homosexuality), but that some people need purpose in their lives. I try to make a difference and be a force for good, even though I am sure some of my activities are wrong from a moral, logical or environmental point of view, even though I am not directly aware of them. Although I try to recycle, support charities, my local communities and other such things, I am probably eating more food than I need, taking more space and other wasteful consumer behaviour as a member of Western society to name but one harmful example. I feel good when I help a person in need but I also feel that it is what should be done. The relief of man’s estate is our own responsibility. The fact that I have a conscience allows me to try to do the right thing, a wonderful result of sentience that is one reason why humanity is worth saving. I have hope that most problems can be solved with great difficulty but will be negotiated. Things can always get better as long as someone has the means to change things for the better, alone or with others. (I don’t like resorting to simple cliché, but it is sometimes useful.) Faith need not be in God.

I would assume that Fireblade is clever enough to make a very good case for goodness and faith in humanity that would be better and more coherent than my own. I have personally experienced many examples of people trying to make the world better and help others. If you haven’t experienced this, get out more. I greatly value the arts and intellectual curiosity. Music, humour and literature are some very human creations that are well worth fighting for.

But I do believe in evil, the descriptive term as you use it. Most purely it is doing the wrong thing according to my own values (sure its relative) when you share that values system but do it anyway. Different values systems cause problems, but I will use mine as a reference point, again because it is the only one I can and should. But many problems are caused by forces such as stupidity, ignorance and laziness, which are not examples of evil, but can magnify it greatly. The problem is that all people have these flaws to some extent. I sure do. This allows a smaller example of evil, such as greed, in conjunction with apathy, ignorance and stupidity, to enable others to do great damage, such as commit genocide or destroy the environment for a quick buck. Because there are more people and higher communication technologies it can seem like evil is happening on a larger scale to a greater extent. But I don’t really think so. We have a better life than the average person hundreds of years ago in part due to technology and greater knowledge.

The injustices of the world make me most sad, but I have hope for the future as well as enough selfishness and intelligence (shallowness?) to allow me to be happy while millions live in poverty. With better education and technology, humanity can try to make things better, solving some of the problems that make people miserable and angry.

I have the slightly illogical but useful belief that there is balance between good and evil, but that our other flaws can compound acts of evil and make it seem like the world is totally stuffed. I am able to be positive because of a genetically happy (if slightly dark) personality, a reasonable knowledge base (compared to average), a good standard of living and strong emotional support from family and friends. What might also help is regular exercise and a healthy diet.

If you need purpose, have hope and try to make a difference, however small. Then be fair on yourself and understand that a little bit of selfishness is sometimes necessary, although too much breeds evil. No individual can solve all the world’s problems.

These are my own beliefs.
 
WarMonger said:
humans are, and forever will be, selfish beasts. it's in our nature. while many are less selfish than others there is no denying that it exists in everyone.

that being said... [rant] what bothers me most in the world today is how groups force their opinions on others. christianity is a shining example of this. they claim they are trying to save souls... but do they know that their path is the right one, or do they just have "faith" that theirs is correct. faith doesnt amount to a hill of beans. i once had faith that my parents would be there when i needed them. nope. mom - cancer - '96 and dad - heart attack - '00. faith is overrated.[/rant]
Faith is exactly what religion is about, and what makes it so powerful. You can't ever disprove any religion, and they haven't been proven either. So people believe because they have faith, and faith is illogical.


As for you, Fireblade, you need to find your own thing to believe in, your own philosophy or goal in life, if you wish, to believe in. That's what you need to do, and no matter what people tell you, unless you find something you can support, you won't agree with them.
 
Faith is not so much about religion, but about choice.

Sooner or later Per is going to pop in and say something about post-modernism and good and evil.

Fireblade- mankind is intermittently good and evil. Most human beings act, I believe, in their own self interest. Those self interests are complex and currently we really don't have a great way to generalize.

Feeling down or depressed is just part of life and it sounds like your reaction to life.

I have often thought that the reason people look for something beyond themselves- perhaps in religion or in an ideology or something else to have faith in, and why they often do terrible things come from the same issue- the limits of their existential boundaries. We are all limited in our existential perceptions, attitudes and interests (thus the inherent selfishness of men). We are limited in our existential time (for while we may believe in reincarnation or heaven- no one really knows for sure). Thus our desperation to make our lives more "meaningful".

All people are the central characters in the novels that are their lives. In those stories we live between two extremes- in which we control our circumstances and in which our circumstances control us.

Thus the problem and the answer. Life is what it is, whether you understand it or not. You are subject to the circumstances in which you live- and generally have limited ability to make significant difference in circumstances.

You have a bit more power to change yourself.

So perhaps the answer to your angst is less about how the world relates to you, but how you relate to the world.

Let me give you an example. In my classes of first year college students we will, at some point, discuss "concepts" and how the way we use concepts define our arguments and in a sense who we are as people. "What does Love mean." I have thrown the same question here. The answers are usually include some variation of "When you feel good about being with someone." or "A good sensation."

Perhaps. If one is Christian one can look at the notion of unconditional love, which I think is what Jesus espouses, and ask what that means- to love unconditionally.

But the question then becomes not "what is the concept" but "What do you choose for that concept to mean."

In that sense Per might be right- good and evil may have to do more with one's interpretation of an idea.

But it also the question is not "where is the humanity?" But rather, "where is my understanding of humanity and what am I going to do to live by that virtue."

And in that you have the rather odd mix of "free will" - what do you, individually choose, and the rather Buddhist notion, that life is just phenomena through which you travel to gain better understanding of yourself, to find your own enlightenment.
 
welsh said:
Faith is not so much about religion, but about choice.

Sooner or later Per is going to pop in and say something about post-modernism and good and evil.

Fireblade- mankind is intermittently good and evil. Most human beings act, I believe, in their own self interest. Those self interests are complex and currently we really don't have a great way to generalize.

Feeling down or depressed is just part of life and it sounds like your reaction to life.

I have often thought that the reason people look for something beyond themselves- perhaps in religion or in an ideology or something else to have faith in, and why they often do terrible things come from the same issue- the limits of their existential boundaries. We are all limited in our existential perceptions, attitudes and interests (thus the inherent selfishness of men). We are limited in our existential time (for while we may believe in reincarnation or heaven- no one really knows for sure). Thus our desperation to make our lives more "meaningful".

All people are the central characters in the novels that are their lives. In those stories we live between two extremes- in which we control our circumstances and in which our circumstances control us.

Thus the problem and the answer. Life is what it is, whether you understand it or not. You are subject to the circumstances in which you live- and generally have limited ability to make significant difference in circumstances.

You have a bit more power to change yourself.

So perhaps the answer to your angst is less about how the world relates to you, but how you relate to the world.

Let me give you an example. In my classes of first year college students we will, at some point, discuss "concepts" and how the way we use concepts define our arguments and in a sense who we are as people. "What does Love mean." I have thrown the same question here. The answers are usually include some variation of "When you feel good about being with someone." or "A good sensation."

Perhaps. If one is Christian one can look at the notion of unconditional love, which I think is what Jesus espouses, and ask what that means- to love unconditionally.

But the question then becomes not "what is the concept" but "What do you choose for that concept to mean."

In that sense Per might be right- good and evil may have to do more with one's interpretation of an idea.

But it also the question is not "where is the humanity?" But rather, "where is my understanding of humanity and what am I going to do to live by that virtue."

And in that you have the rather odd mix of "free will" - what do you, individually choose, and the rather Buddhist notion, that life is just phenomena through which you travel to gain better understanding of yourself, to find your own enlightenment.

When in doubt and need... Listen to the elder Welsh, he who will guide you through the night. Well writen as usual Welsh.
 
Appreciate the lively conversation people.

Welsh, the problem I seem to face is thus: I sincerely envy people who can adhere to a higher ideology through blind faith, as I intermittently seem blessed/cursed to suffer this intellect. I desperately desire to find something noble to adhere to in this world, and yet every time i do, my increasingly rational mind seems to find the flaws and pick it apart before I can ever begin. Now, I try to consider myself a good person at heart and help others, but it seems it is always tinged with a sense of melancholia. This is what I cannot understand, as every action I perform to help others elicits the participation of my guilt complex, that I am not in fact doing it out of altruistic principle, but merely to feel better about myself.


In summary, I honestly do wnat to help people, and find something tangible to hold onto in this world. Yet, given the irrationality of humanity as a whole, it ends up being a love/hate relationship as I desire both to protect others with my entire being, even as I loathe them for the necessity.

I also find myself increasingly drawn to the concept of the 'overman', which frightens me in a way. I find myself justifying the desire to be a "superior" human being by arguing that "Well, how can I aid them if I am bound by the same limitations in my character?" I DO sincerely want to aid people, but the fact that I feel it necessary to have to be as like the "Guardian" class in The Republic makes me wonder if I am sane, or if I am slipping from my own ideals and only justifying a desire for power.
 
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