I think i seee something wrong about ammo mechanics.

Z

zaopatrzeniowiec

First time out of the vault
I do not know if i see this right so plz claryfy it for me. I encountered this damage modyfier:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/10mm_(Fallout)
and i compared it outcome with this gun:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/10mm_pistol_(Fallout)
and the purpose of this two ammo types stared to be unclear to me.

Let say i pushed 10dmg from this pistol and i am attacking two enemies from who one have no armor and one have armor on.
So:
1.
Flesh creature with no armor against 10mm AP. 10dmg reduced by half and -25% DR is not aplied due to lack of armor.
Outcome = 5dmg
Against JHP damage is doubled and 25% reduction is on so (10x2)-25%=15
Outcome = 15dmg

2.
Armored opponent with armor value of 25% against penetration round gives me 10/2=5
Outcome = still 5dmg.
Against JHP you have 10x2 -25% from armor and -25% from mod gives you 10dmg.
Outcome = 10dmg

It turns that anti flesh ammo is better versus armored enemies than anti armor bulets. There must be a mistake in my way of thinking but i am unable to see it. Plz correct me.
 
Last time I checked there had been bugs in the formula. Therefore we have some mods combined with Sfall that try to fix / tweak it.
 
You are indeed correct, this is a bug in the ammo, and the unofficial patch for Fo1 includes I believe optional 2 mods to fix it.
 
Armored: 50% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 75% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 75% = 5 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 25% DR -> 1/2x dmg = 5 nulled by 25% = 3.75 dmg

Armored: 55% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 80% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 80% = 4 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 30% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 30% = 3.5 dmg

Armored: 60% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 85% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 85% = 3 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 35% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 35% = 3.25 dmg

Armored: 65% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 90% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 90% = 2 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 40% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 40% = 3 dmg

Armored: 75% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 90% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 90% = 2 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 50% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 50% = 2.5 dmg

Armored: 80% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 90% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 90% = 2 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 55% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 55% = 2.25 dmg

Armored: 85% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 90% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 90% = 2 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 60% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 60% = 2 dmg

Armored: 90% DR
JHP -> Enemy now has 90% DR -> 2x dmg = 20 nulled by 90% = 2 dmg
AP -> Enemy now has 65% DR -> 1/2 dmg = 5 nulled by 65% = 1.75 dmg



Notwithstanding AC and DT values, apparently AP is only useful between a range of DR's, namely 60-80%. Interestingly broken system, that.
 
Kind of makes sense though, right? I'm no ballistics specialist and inform me if I'm wrong and all that, but I would expect AP to not be efficient on weak enough defenses and lose effectiveness once it reaches a point in which the bullet is unable to penetrate anyways.
 
Yes, but consider how narrow that DR% range is, and how low the damage is. Throw in AC and DT and you're already shooting mothballs at the target.
 
Yes Harken, but how many enemies u have that can be proud of thier 50+ resistance? In my sense armorer opponents are those who have any reduction beside thier own skin. Let say above 2/10%.

Ocasionaly i wish to ask another question without starting useless thread. I am playing FT now and i dont understand some numbers in there. Maybe also broken but my every gun is doing about 1/3 of its damage to every opponent. I am in 6 mission now and it does not change. Its like every nenemy had already 66% reduction. Also my armor seems to not work. For example a bug is dealing 2-4 dmg with or without my armor on. Why? it reduces 2/25% so he should deal 0-1 dmg with and 6-8 without.

Also, is there a mod to decrease ammount of random encounters? I have iteraly 20 of them per square. I cannot move more than 10 pixels without be draged into ambush.
 
Last edited:
I meant Outdoorsman, it is a solution as it lets you avoid encounter (although something could just be bugged on your end as I never had that many encounters)
 
zaopatrzeniowiec said:
So:
1.
Flesh creature with no armor against 10mm AP. 10dmg reduced by half and -25% DR is not aplied due to lack of armor.
Outcome = 5dmg
Against JHP damage is doubled and 25% reduction is on so (10x2)-25%=15
Outcome = 15dmg

2.
Armored opponent with armor value of 25% against penetration round gives me 10/2=5
Outcome = still 5dmg.
Against JHP you have 10x2 -25% from armor and -25% from mod gives you 10dmg.
Outcome = 10dmg

It turns that anti flesh ammo is better versus armored enemies than anti armor bulets. There must be a mistake in my way of thinking but i am unable to see it. Plz correct me.
Click to expand...

That is indeed the problem in the design, as the reduction of DT/DR does not compensate for the halved damage, as the remaining DT/DR is applied to the halved damage. Do note, however, that the original Fallout does not apply any damage modifiers due to a bug in the executable (this was fixed in Fallout 2):

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Fallout_combat#Damage_calculation

As such, the modifiers that would render the 14mm pistol a castrated handcannon do not violate it:

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/14mm_AP_(Fallout)

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/14mm_AP_(Fallout_2)

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/14mm_pistol_(Fallout)

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/14mm_pistol_(Fallout_2)

I need to rewrite the Fallout combat article more. Splitting the articles helped avoid misinforming our readers.
 
TheChosen1 said:
I meant Outdoorsman, it is a solution as it lets you avoid encounter (although something could just be bugged on your end as I never had that many encounters)
Click to expand...

It is NOT a solution. It does not prevent encounters from happening. It just gives you a chance to decide if you want to participate in it.
 
zaopatrzeniowiec said:
TheChosen1 said:
I meant Outdoorsman, it is a solution as it lets you avoid encounter (although something could just be bugged on your end as I never had that many encounters)
Click to expand...

It is NOT a solution. It does not prevent encounters from happening. It just gives you a chance to decide if you want to participate in it.
Click to expand...

My solution in shooting them in the eyes. In the end the weaponry you have access to usually far outclasses the armor you are going up against. (Enclave Patrols/Master's remnants/Deathclaws being the exceptions to this)

There are fixes, but aimed shots make ammo choice redundant.
 
I think the YAMM and Weapons Redone patches (not together!) work fine. I've used both of them in the past and the JHP/AP ammo variants seem to work as they should.
 
I haven't tested it yet, but isn't JHP best for those "aimed shots to the eyes"(or head)? As in you're either likely or certain(depending on better criticals perks) to get a bypass armor effect, and then doesn't the JHP multiplier kick in(since you don't need armor bypassing as much)?
 
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