I'm wondering if the Great Khans should have been presented more ambiguously...

I thought the Great Khans were presented as one of the most ambiguous factions in all of Fallout history. They're a bunch of drug dealing murderous criminals but they're a decent sort to each other and a family. Well, except, of course for the fact Bitter Root says they were abusive assholes he was glad to see killed. They were very well developed, IMHO, as a multifaceted group of criminals who were still human beings.

Of course, the badassery of the Khans is downplayed and I think we're meant to see the GK at the Twilight of their power (potentially). The Bitter Springs massacee have already reduced the Khans to a shadow of their former selves just like Mojave BoS and Enclave. They're anachronisms that will continue to fall to NCR and irrelevance unless they get the hell away from them.
 
Earth said:
The Khans were always minor villains in Fallout and Fallout 2, being the raider faction that you interacted with in each game. I appreciate the fact that they made the group more sympathetic in Fallout New Vegas. In the original games, you could always just massacre the Khans no big deal, but in Vegas they show the very real consequences "massacres" actually have, with the whole Bitter Springs fiasco. I like the fact that this time round we see the Great Khans in a position of desperation, not strength.

So that's all well and good, but I can't help feeling like this is still the Great Khans we're talking about. A raider group who peddle in drugs and believe ultimately in physical strength as the decision-maker of society. What do we see of this in New Vegas? We see some relatively nice people open to reason, a young man who doesn't want to go through the brutal rite of passage of the Khans and instead wants to become a poet, and drug manufacturers who are pretty chill and groovy, y'dig? The only violent Khans we see are when they take a couple NCR soldiers hostage and the sniper in Bitter Springs. They just don't come across as all that bad. When they're talking about keeping the Fiends coked up to attack the NCR it just doesn't compute with the relatively nice people we see with the Khans. Or maybe that's the point, maybe they're supposed to be more likeable, most of them having learned a hard lesson from Bitter Springs.

I'm wondering if they should have been presented more ambiguously. The Great Khans have had a lot of bad things happen to them yes, but they should still be presented as the violent group they are. Shouldn't they be more aggressive, more keen to stage raiding parties from Red Rock Canyon. Maybe they should still use slaves like they used to in the old games. Stuff like that. Anyway, after all that spiel, any thoughts from you guys? Were you happy with how the Khans were presented, or do you think they could have been handled better? What would you change about them?
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The khans do have some roaming patrols now and again, though storywise they do have less bite, other than the quests where you need to recruit them. It feels more realistic to me though that they're much more reserved and less violent after fallout 2 as well as the bittersprings massacre. The bitter springs event particularly would have hit them pretty hard considering the circumstances and relative recentness of it. IIRC the Khans and NCR were fighting but many of their families got slaughtered as well, so not only did they lose many of their fighting age men, but they lost many of their families too. With such continuous losses over an extended period of time, theyre much more likely to be a little more reserved about their violence and aggressiveness with so few left after so many conflicts.
 
I feel like we also have to keep in mind that the Khans, the New Khans, and the Great Khans are essentially three different gangs? Like, canonically iirc doesn't only one dude survive the Vault Dweller's massacre? On top of that, it's been at least 120 years since the Khans' inception! Things change really drastically across periods of time like that. It kinda makes more sense to me that they're depicted sympathetically in New Vegas than it would if they were the same like, raider-slavers that we saw in the earlier games for a third time.
 
Whammytap said:
The evolution of the Great Khans from a raider gang to a chem-manufacturing powerhouse is quite feasible, in fact similar stories happen IRL all the time. Look at drug cartels in least less-developed countries. Being a Raider is a dangerous, hand-to-mouth existence; the Great Khans learned how to do commerce and profit, and prosper.

That said, yeah, it did seem like their story was kind of shoehorned in, didn't it?
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I think the Great Khans are meant to give a sense as to what being a tribal means in the world and what Caesar's Legion is actually doing by absorbing people into their Empire. It also raises a valid moral issue. The Khans are kind of scumbags but they're a family (sometimes an abusive drug dealing one) with people who love each other, people who have ambitions, and people who just want to lay back and chill.

Is it a net loss or gain for the world when a group like this gets absorbed by Caesar?

Because while we have Bitter-Root, we also have Manny Vargas.

Garbagecrone said:
I feel like we also have to keep in mind that the Khans, the New Khans, and the Great Khans are essentially three different gangs? Like, canonically iirc doesn't only one dude survive the Vault Dweller's massacre? On top of that, it's been at least 120 years since the Khans' inception! Things change really drastically across periods of time like that. It kinda makes more sense to me that they're depicted sympathetically in New Vegas than it would if they were the same like, raider-slavers that we saw in the earlier games for a third time.
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I think they're still probably Raiders. Being a Raider isn't a 24-7 job even if they have found peddling drugs to the Fiends is more lucrative than actually stealing all the time. Raiders in New Vegas are more than psycho killers.
 
CT Phipps said:
Is it a net loss or gain for the world when a group like this gets absorbed by Caesar?
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Oh yeah.

I like the Legion, but do always feel a twinge of guilt when I stand by and allow Karl to work his magic on Papa Khan. Still, there is some consolation in the fact that many of the Khans felt the chance to get back at NCR was ultimately worth it. That might be like a scorched-earth mode of thinking, but I can understand the bitter sentiment.

Because while we have Bitter-Root, we also have Manny Vargas.
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Melissa and her pappy Chomps Lewis also reiterate the notion that the Khans aren't all bad (and that things aren't all wine and roses in NCR).
 
Bubba Zanetti said:
I like the Legion, but do always feel a twinge of guilt when I stand by and allow Karl to work his magic on Papa Khan. Still, there is some consolation in the fact that many of the Khans felt the chance to get back at NCR was ultimately worth it. That might be like a scorched-earth mode of thinking, but I can understand the bitter sentiment.
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Damn savages deserve it, drug dealing fiends.
 
They suffered the opposite fate in fo1 and fo2. When you see their schemes and hear other npc mention them, they seem nicer than other raiders, or At least more pragmatic. Yet, you barely interact with them outside combat and the rare that matter aren't really that nice. In fonv,it is a bit the opposite you hear about their bad deeds, but all you interact with are nice guys. I thought the ex-convicts much more ambiguous.
 
Don't know, the impression I had since the first time I looked at the Great Khans is a tribe who was badly beaten - not without reason, but maybe with a little excessive force that wasn't needed - and are living in a distant and dirty corner of Nevada licking their wounds.
Calling them "nice" is not the world I describe either.

Sure they talk to you, but most of the time is someone telling me to back off, fuck off or simply ignoring me.
Also they don't stop telling me how they will take revenge on the NCR or gladly kill them in battle.
I sure as hell have my weapon ready everytime I visit Red Rock Canyon.

Also they aren't in position to pick fights with anyone, hence their "low profile around people".
I don't think they are presented incoherently.
 
brfritos said:
Don't know, the impression I had since the first time I looked at the Great Khans is a tribe who was badly beaten - not without reason, but maybe with a little excessive force that wasn't needed - and are living in a distant and dirty corner of Nevada licking their wounds.
Calling them "nice" is not the world I describe either.

Sure they talk to you, but most of the time is someone telling me to back off, fuck off or simply ignoring me.
Also they don't stop telling me how they will take revenge on the NCR or gladly kill them in battle.
I sure as hell have my weapon ready everytime I visit Red Rock Canyon.

Also they aren't in position to pick fights with anyone, hence their "low profile around people".
I don't think they are presented incoherently.
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The Khans have been beaten so many times...
 
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