I'm not calling either a 'RPG' pure and simple... but both NCAA/Madden and GTA utilize RPG elements without the attached RPG stigma. It is sort of like Michael Crichton writing books with science fiction elements for years but getting away with being included in the general fiction category.
Impressions thread for positive impressions
- Thread starter midshipman01
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I think Per said it onceCorvin said:
Moving Target
Mildly Dipped
Corvin, your logic is off. Here's how:
You've been saying, basically, that if there are stats in a game, it counts as an RPG. Or at least it's close enough to be considered a hybrid.
What we're saying is that that "it's got stats" isn't a good enough argument. Starcraft, for instance, has visible stats. You don't touch the specific numbers, but you can upgrade them... as a matter of fact, some upgrades are even *called* "levels."
Even having an improved character doesn't make an RPG. There have been... I can't even guess how many shooters with stats that upgrade. The games still aren't RPGs.
So, what DOES qualify a game to be an RPG? That's much tougher to define, but just calling any game with stats an RPG is not correct.
You've been saying, basically, that if there are stats in a game, it counts as an RPG. Or at least it's close enough to be considered a hybrid.
What we're saying is that that "it's got stats" isn't a good enough argument. Starcraft, for instance, has visible stats. You don't touch the specific numbers, but you can upgrade them... as a matter of fact, some upgrades are even *called* "levels."
Even having an improved character doesn't make an RPG. There have been... I can't even guess how many shooters with stats that upgrade. The games still aren't RPGs.
So, what DOES qualify a game to be an RPG? That's much tougher to define, but just calling any game with stats an RPG is not correct.
RPG = Playing a definable role you wish to play*
*Not restricted to -
1. Alignment (see UIV)
2. Skills (see FO1/2)
3. Variety of actions, ie diplomacy vs. hostility (see Icewind Dale)
- an RPG requires some form of customization, traditionally represented by statistics (represented definably in the game world)*
*Statistics provide the basic framework of a "role" in that -
1. It is the single most viable way of expressing unique qualities, ie physical traits expressed as variables that interact with character actions and game environment
2. It provides the necessary randomization and unpredictability given in the interchangeability of variables, a hit "roll" is not always successful, nor is a lockpick "roll"
3. It provides character and unique qualities to aspects of the environment - in many RPGs items each have their own weight, special attributes or effects which they typically would not possess in another genre
- an RPG should focus on the traditional givens of its spectrum*
*Some RPGs are based on combat, others on choice, others on possibilities (ie Icewind Dale, Ultima IV, Fallout respectively), these are defined by -
1. Combat - essentials include variety in character roles (usually through parties) via character customization (ie character creation in an AD&D RPG) and tactical possibilities through introduction of character roles and unique qualities (see: statistical basis for customization) that provide alternate possibilities in a realized world. Combat RPGs have the most offshoots into the debatable realm of classification, such as Diablo or Mass Effect, which present little customization in way of character role in different situations and applicable methods
2. Choice - the ability to explore an environment and base character choice on personal whims of exploration and approach to a primary goal, choice realm involves resolution of situations in several methods (note: this does not mean combat vs. diplomacy, rather magic vs. brute strength or thievery vs. diplomacy), variable character customization that allows a player to shift between roles with different characters, but with little restriction to the game world (ie, Gothic, Ultima IV, Daggerfall)
3. Possibilities - the ultimate expression of customizable characters, this variety of RPG restricts aspects of the game world based on character composition, a non-thief will not be able to access certain quests, a thief with no real combat skills will not be able to kill certain enemies and thus deprive him of certain quest rewards or progress as example, these games provide options as strict and powerful motivators, a player shapes his character to interact with the world differently, stats regulate the majority of this interaction
Sum. - An RPG can be defined as a game that utilizes statistics to represent a unique role decided by the player, these statistics must be used to represent individual qualities amongst characters and environment to provide unpredictability and several possibilities, be them tactical decisions, exploration properties, or restrictions and able avenues. These elements are typically combined, and RPGs must use these elements to heavily influence a player's results, if it does not, then it is a watered down pseudo-RPG.
*Not restricted to -
1. Alignment (see UIV)
2. Skills (see FO1/2)
3. Variety of actions, ie diplomacy vs. hostility (see Icewind Dale)
- an RPG requires some form of customization, traditionally represented by statistics (represented definably in the game world)*
*Statistics provide the basic framework of a "role" in that -
1. It is the single most viable way of expressing unique qualities, ie physical traits expressed as variables that interact with character actions and game environment
2. It provides the necessary randomization and unpredictability given in the interchangeability of variables, a hit "roll" is not always successful, nor is a lockpick "roll"
3. It provides character and unique qualities to aspects of the environment - in many RPGs items each have their own weight, special attributes or effects which they typically would not possess in another genre
- an RPG should focus on the traditional givens of its spectrum*
*Some RPGs are based on combat, others on choice, others on possibilities (ie Icewind Dale, Ultima IV, Fallout respectively), these are defined by -
1. Combat - essentials include variety in character roles (usually through parties) via character customization (ie character creation in an AD&D RPG) and tactical possibilities through introduction of character roles and unique qualities (see: statistical basis for customization) that provide alternate possibilities in a realized world. Combat RPGs have the most offshoots into the debatable realm of classification, such as Diablo or Mass Effect, which present little customization in way of character role in different situations and applicable methods
2. Choice - the ability to explore an environment and base character choice on personal whims of exploration and approach to a primary goal, choice realm involves resolution of situations in several methods (note: this does not mean combat vs. diplomacy, rather magic vs. brute strength or thievery vs. diplomacy), variable character customization that allows a player to shift between roles with different characters, but with little restriction to the game world (ie, Gothic, Ultima IV, Daggerfall)
3. Possibilities - the ultimate expression of customizable characters, this variety of RPG restricts aspects of the game world based on character composition, a non-thief will not be able to access certain quests, a thief with no real combat skills will not be able to kill certain enemies and thus deprive him of certain quest rewards or progress as example, these games provide options as strict and powerful motivators, a player shapes his character to interact with the world differently, stats regulate the majority of this interaction
Sum. - An RPG can be defined as a game that utilizes statistics to represent a unique role decided by the player, these statistics must be used to represent individual qualities amongst characters and environment to provide unpredictability and several possibilities, be them tactical decisions, exploration properties, or restrictions and able avenues. These elements are typically combined, and RPGs must use these elements to heavily influence a player's results, if it does not, then it is a watered down pseudo-RPG.
Here I'd like to point out, that a true RPG detaches the character skills from the player skills.Eyenixon said:
Your character can be highly intelligent, charming, agile, quick-witted etc, even if you (the player) lack one or all of those qualities.
The reason I don't define something like Diablo as an RPG, is that it focuses entirely on player reactions. You don't dodge a fireball or an arrow unless the player is fast enough to click out of the way.
In an RPG, an agile character would dodge, even if the controlling human didn't react in time.
To translate this to FO3, take my character. She was a demolitions expert, with very high explosives skill, and high perception.
She should have spotted all the mines of the floor, even the ones I missed. In FO1/2, if your char spotted a mine the game paused with a message "you spot a mine". In FO3, unless the player spots the mine (I was hopeless at seeing them), you get exploded.
You actually do dodge attacks in Diablo based on your stats, your armor and passive dodge stats to be exact.
Similarly, spells can be resisted with spell resistances. Diablo's gameplay is entirely based on player stats, like Baldur's Gate, it's just knowing how to use your abilities when appropriate. A fireball is not advisable in the middle of a pitted melee battle in Baldur's Gate, similarly, jumping into hordes of fast attacking enemies in Diablo 2 with a slow attacking Barbarian is not a good course of action.
As I said, player results have to be heavily influenced by statistics. The primary reason that Diablo 2 is not a full fledged RPG is because it is not a marriage of the features I posted above, even most rogue-likes (other than Diablo obviously) incorporate some exploration elements into their gameplay, the Diablo series however, is extremely linear. They are action RPGs though, just like Metroid Prime can be considered more of an exploration game masquerading as an FPS, Metroid Prime isn't a real FPS as much as it's an extension of the older titles in a 3D realm.
Even Icewind Dale, which is extremely combat focused and somewhat linear, presents a realized world with some choices (party composition, character development and utilization) that you will not find in Diablo.
When it's all boiled down to the basic facts, RPGs have to be complex and incorporate several different facets of the genre to be considered "real" RPGs.
After you've played pretty much every notable RPG in existence it's pretty easy to tell what fits into the genre and what doesn't.
Similarly, spells can be resisted with spell resistances. Diablo's gameplay is entirely based on player stats, like Baldur's Gate, it's just knowing how to use your abilities when appropriate. A fireball is not advisable in the middle of a pitted melee battle in Baldur's Gate, similarly, jumping into hordes of fast attacking enemies in Diablo 2 with a slow attacking Barbarian is not a good course of action.
As I said, player results have to be heavily influenced by statistics. The primary reason that Diablo 2 is not a full fledged RPG is because it is not a marriage of the features I posted above, even most rogue-likes (other than Diablo obviously) incorporate some exploration elements into their gameplay, the Diablo series however, is extremely linear. They are action RPGs though, just like Metroid Prime can be considered more of an exploration game masquerading as an FPS, Metroid Prime isn't a real FPS as much as it's an extension of the older titles in a 3D realm.
Even Icewind Dale, which is extremely combat focused and somewhat linear, presents a realized world with some choices (party composition, character development and utilization) that you will not find in Diablo.
When it's all boiled down to the basic facts, RPGs have to be complex and incorporate several different facets of the genre to be considered "real" RPGs.
After you've played pretty much every notable RPG in existence it's pretty easy to tell what fits into the genre and what doesn't.
You're right. I'm not sure how I managed to forget that attacks hit/miss based on AC in Diablo. Hehe.
But my point about mine detection is still valid. My char should have seen them and they should have been highlighted with a red hue or something. So if she saw them, they basically become un-missable.
I blew up so many landmines with my face it's just not funny. Also not-funny was the fact that none of them killed me
But then they weren't fatal in FO1/2 either.
Strange really. FO1/2 weren't shy about killing you with an unlucky critical. But kill the PC with a hidden mine? Didn't ever happen to me. Not many games like to do that, it seems. In fact I can't think of one. Mostly setting off traps in most games is just an inconvenience.
BG1/2 are the same. Very very rarely would any trap pose anything more than a minor annoyance. And there were few battles that incorporated traps. I can think of one in BG2, but it was in a side mission.
But my point about mine detection is still valid. My char should have seen them and they should have been highlighted with a red hue or something. So if she saw them, they basically become un-missable.
I blew up so many landmines with my face it's just not funny. Also not-funny was the fact that none of them killed me
But then they weren't fatal in FO1/2 either.Strange really. FO1/2 weren't shy about killing you with an unlucky critical. But kill the PC with a hidden mine? Didn't ever happen to me. Not many games like to do that, it seems. In fact I can't think of one. Mostly setting off traps in most games is just an inconvenience.
BG1/2 are the same. Very very rarely would any trap pose anything more than a minor annoyance. And there were few battles that incorporated traps. I can think of one in BG2, but it was in a side mission.
I think that was just a design choice on the part of Black Isle and Bioware for their respective games, the old Goldbox AD&D titles had traps that were often lethal and could kill many of your party members if you weren't careful, thieves were generally far more useful in those games than BG1 or 2, Icewind Dale did retain some of those fatal traps though, certainly more so than the BG series.
I know that it is not accurate. It was just meant to coax you out of your shell. You at least take your time to argue and say something which is not offensive toward anyone. Thankefully the most trolls have been gone over the last 1-2 years that have really nothing better to do then posting those "Omgss your all just loosers! Falloutt333 awesomenesss *headexplodes*" comments. I would now maybe say more, but cross-side bashing is not allowed. Though I think most know about which forum I am thinking here. Anyway.Corvin said:
As a few others already explained pretty nicely a RPG is not only defined by stats or even the story. Frankly if we go with Fallout 1/2 here it had no awesome super epic story. I think most people agree it was a nice small McGuffin like thing that is only meant to push you out in the world. What though is part of RPGs is its name "Role Playing Game". If one only choose a monk cause of the attacks or a priest as he loves to summon undead creaturs but for nothing else he did not understood the whole reasons behind roleplaying. Though if the world does not present you some "limits" to your actions and show the "consequences" it becoms at best only a big sandbox like Larpsimulator like Oblivion were you "pretend" to play ... something.
For a RPG the story is not even the most important part. Much more important is how much you can shape this story and the setting to YOUR liking. Providing a different path, neither really good or really bad but something that fitts to the character you created. For example if you decide to play a Paladin devoted to Helm (a lawfull good god) or a Priest of Ilmater the crying god (a Neutral good), you should get ways to solve issues in the way that fitts those roles and not just "other kinds of attacks and spells". Think about the Paladin like a strict knight always with the law in his mind no matter what and the monk maybe a image of the David "Kwai Chang Caine" Carradine Kung Fu like character.
Part of role playing in the traditional sense is it to make a "distance" between you and your character. Meaning that you create some avatar and see how much you can shape the world with the skills you chose which might either be more paths with whisdom, intelligence, or the skills needed for thievery and combat, like agility and what else is part of it. A good RPG provides here many different paths with "real" differences. Most RPGs today sadly provide you with the basic thiev skills but without the path to really play one meaning that you dont have reall differences here if you make a thiev or plane fighter for example it just becomes harder to play the thiev character. I would play probably in much more games a thiev if they would allow me to really play the character of a rascal, or trickster and not just the typical RPG standart situations "oh? A closed door! with a guard!! what now!!!"
A ) kill the guard, take his key, open door
B ) Spare guard, steal his key, open door
If this kind of choices are the only one present in GTA 4 then its not a RPG. This are fake choices that have more or less no meaning to your game. And thus allow you not to "play" the role of the character you created. Developing skills here makes not a RPG.
Again I can not comment really about GTA 4 since I have not played it. But if they really tried to stay true with GTA 3 and the past GTA titles then for sure it is not a RPG or even tries to be one. It never was the target from the GTA games to really make players "think" about any concsequences and that never was it what I liked about the GTA games.
No doubt that GTA is a fun and awesome game.
midshipman01 said:
I'm getting tired of this idiotic hackneyed argument that you Fallout 3 fanboys keep presenting like recycled refuse.
Fallout wasn't revived by Bethesda. They recognized a unique theme in the Fallout franchise and took an opportunity to cash in on it. We don't owe Bethesda anything. The truth is they owe the Fallout fans for giving them the idea for making this game in the first place. Without Fallout's dedicated fanbase, it would be nothing, the whole franchise would be forgotten and I doubt Bethesda would consider "reviving" this franchise as you ignorantly put it.
^ Intrusive DRM is a b***ch, and you should feel lucky for living in the US. A lot of East European releases end up with Starforce protection, which is even worse than Securom. If you have two games with different versions of Starforce protection, you could not have them installed and play at the same time...
Falling into that same category I guess my views of what a 'RPG' is or isn't have just broadened over time.
Since you're old school...
Are the Infocom games RPGs?
Is Nethack?
Is Out of This World?
Is Puzzle Pirates?
Myst/Riven?
The Pokemon games?
Star Ocean?
Knights of the Old Republic?
There's certainly a broad swath if you've played nearly every RPG ever made.
From a tabletop perspective would you consider HOL or Amber to 'not be RPGs'? What about a classic game of Assassins or NERF based LARP?
Corvin said:
If you grew up thinking D&D is what an RPG is, then no, FF series cannot be considered RPG's because they are linear in every aspect of the game.
To Crazylegs: Fallout was popular on release, maybe you never heard of it because you play consoles or weren't born yet.
