New Vegas/Van Buren continuity - Which do you prefer? How would we merge them?

[Jogre]

So disclaimer before I begin: I have not played Fallout Yesterday yet, I haven't had the time, and I am waiting until it's mostly complete before I try. However, my understanding of it is that it operates in the original Van Buren continuity, and tries to recreate it as faithfully as possible, rather than taking in newer influences (Example: Joshua Graham being the Hanged Man rather than the Burned Man)

So as it currently stands, Van Buren and New Vegas are two separate continuities. Yes New Vegas adapts aspects from Van Buren, but as it stands, there is no way that the adventures laid out in the design documents, and New Vegas can take place in the same continuity as there are too many contradictions.

So I figured in this thread I'd list some of the contradictions between the two, and ask people here two questions: 1. Which do you prefer? 2. If you were to merge the two continuities - make it so the events of both happened - What changes would you make to each of the games?

-Timeline doesn't corroborate - This is the major one: In Van Buren, set 2253, the NCR is already well established in the east, having outposts everywhere including Hoover Dam, but in New Vegas, the occupation of Hoover Dam by the NCR was a couple years ago, and immediately caused House to wake up and negotiate with them - By the time the NCR were well-established this far east, Legion was also a major threat (House explicitly says the threat of legion was what caused them to negotiate rather than risk losses trying to conquer Vegas)
-In Van Buren - My understanding is that the NCR back West have lost contact with the East - The NCR Congress Building was bombed, supplies stopped coming West, and Hoover Dam is maintained by General Dodge, trying his best to maintain the dam in the face of massive morale loss.
-Hoover Dam in general: In Van Buren it seems it was planned to have a town built on it's base, and in the lower levels, have "Trogs", formerly nomadic cave dwellers who moved in to the dam looking for work. Then on the very bottom level there was planned to be a secret genetic experimentation lab that was sabotaged by China to stop whatever was being produced there from getting out.
-Caesar's Legion and the Blackfoot - In Van Buren these are separate groups, Legion already exists. In New Vegas, Legion was forged out of the Blackfoot. Moreover one of the things you could do with the Blackfoot in Van Buren was teach them how to use firearms to help them conquer other tribes - which is how Caesar conquered other tribes.
-Joshua Graham as the Burned Man VS The Hanged Man
-Powder Gangers - Depending on which version we take into account, both the East, and the Mojave could be the origin of Powder Gangers.
-Hecate annexing the Vipers - Whereas in New Vegas the Vipers are their own group of Raiders

 

[Golbolco]

Many of what you list as contradictions are not real contradictions, in particular your last two points. "Powder ganger" can definitely be a generic term for gangs of NCR convicts or escaped convicts applied all over the Republic and its colonies, there is not much in New Vegas that indicates the powder gangers are a unique group in the Mojave.

Vipers are a different story. Being that the Vipers have existed since 2097, it is plausible that there are many clans of Vipers all over the American Southwest. Some ended up in service to Hecate, others were pushed out of New California into the Mojave.

Creative storytellers always find ways to reconcile plot threads like the ones you've outlined. You might want to look at the late Atomic Postman's reimagining of Van Buren as a New Vegas prequel, found here. Personally I like to picture the opposite and reimagine New Vegas as a sequel to Van Buren, accounting for VB's worldbuilding to replace New Vegas's sometimes lackluster worldbuilding.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

I don’t know if this is a controversial opinion or not, but whenever Van Buren and New Vegas contradict each other, I feel like the version from Van Buren is generally more interesting, or at least seems “cooler” to me.

For example, I always thought the concept of the “Hanged Man” was better than the “Burned Man”, even if the original version is more of a one-dimensional character. I like the idea of a companion that’s an ultimate badass and totally evil, everyone hates him and by extension you if you recruit him. Honest Hearts tried to redeem him, which is nice and all but it turns him into a more realistic and, frankly, more compelling character, and that doesn’t seem to jive with his over-the-top unkillable badass backstory.

As far as other stuff goes…
-Making Hoover Dam a town is more interesting than it being a heavily fortified abandoned ruin.
-The NCR being on the brink of collapse is more interesting than it being implied to be on the path to collapse but for the most part everything is still fine in the heartland.
-The whole point of Caesar’s Legion’s misogyny was to contrast it with the Daughters of Hecate, which were also an interesting faction. Without them, the Legion’s sexism serves no purpose other than to make them less appealing to side with.
-The player being able to actually use their skills to affect the world is always better than just hearing about Caesar doing it in the past.
-Powder gangers seem functionally the same despite their slight difference in origin.
-Vipers (and by extension Jackals) are hardly featured in NV and are just generic raiders, so it’s hard to argue that their Van Buren portrayal is worse. Although I remember being disappointed to read that the first time they would actually appear in a game they would be reduced to essentially slave soldiers with none of their former snake cult trappings.

I know Arcade was supposed to be in VB but I don’t think his character was developed much. He seemed to be an actual ex-Enclave soldier originally and wore combat armor, so I think he was more like a Followers of the Apocalypse guard rather than a doctor/scientist.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Then on the very bottom level there was planned to be a secret genetic experimentation lab that was sabotaged by China to stop whatever was being produced there from getting out.

I’m pretty sure this had to do with the New Plague. The Chinese insurgents escaped with Limit 115 or whatever it was called but were soon gunned down, breaking the vials and releasing the virus. Somehow this lead to Denver being hit by the New Plague despite not being particularly close to Hoover Dam.

 

[Jogre]

-Making Hoover Dam a town is more interesting than it being a heavily fortified abandoned ruin.

I get why New Vegas did this - Having Hoover Dam be more of a blank slate location, allows it to act a lot more as a representation of the larger conflict.
It being straight up just a source of water and power makes it clear why control of it is so important, in a way that a fleshed out Hoover Dam would distract from.

But still, I can't help but feel a little sad the Trogs didn't get the light of day. Like, we rarely if ever see new groups of humanoid mutants, and the games keep milking Supermutants and Ghouls over and over again. I'd like to see new types of humanoid out in the wastes, at least to make it feel like the worlds bigger and has more things in it.



Moreover, from reading the Hoover Dam design documents, the location just feels more Fallouty than anything Fallout New Vegas has - This complex town with multiple different subzones, like an upper city and a lower city, plenty of wackiness and crazy NPCs, complex intrigue for this one location - Reaching an Old World Ruin that's a proper intricate dungeon and discovering the conspiracies that governed the old world.

IDK, recently Fallout New Vegas has started to feel like it was put too much through the Fallout 3 blender. Like you go to Goodsprings, there's like 5 people there, and a single non-tutorial quest, you go to Novac, there's like 5 people there, there's a quest and a companion quest. Everything's just very one and done, there's very little relation between the towns, and it just feels like a less complex world overall. You wade through pre-war ruins, and they're like, a hardware store with ants in, or something. Lots of the locations just don't feel very Fallout.

 

[Ugly Kid]

I've actually thought about how to merge them in many ways before reading this. I mostly want to cover Hoover Dam, Joshua Graham, and Cheyenne Mountain. There are smaller things too I will discuss at the end.

Firstly, Hoover Dam.
I headcannon that as the Legion grew more prominent in Arizona they were able to push the NCR back in Nevada/California. So after President Kimball was elected in 2273, he decided to work an arrangement with the local government where the NCR would take over to "ensure protection." Shortly after this agreement Kimball had all of the town's residents evicted and their homes demolished. Hoover Dam was then converted into the military outpost you see in New Vegas. The influx of refugees from the dam into Vegas is what made House decide to speak with the NCR and the rest plays out normally.

Joshua Graham.
I just imagine he either wasn't hanged or he was captured and hanged by a tribe he was taking over. He got loose and killed all the tribals. He still works for Caesar but can join the player to help scout out areas for the Legion and possibly subject more people to Caesar's will.

Cheyenne Mountain.
In New Vegas there is a reference to the Midwest BoS. However, Van Buren was to retcon Tactics by having Cheyenne Mountain as a crater. I say let Vault 0 be a base of operations for the Midwest BoS and let there be a little town outside of the vault. They may not have much interest into the ongoings of the Four States Commonwealth. They may even have a cold war with the Legion who's got their eyes on Vault 0.

Unrelated but in my headcannon the Midwest BoS have no connection to the actual BoS. Seperate name and backstory but otherwise it's the same. You can skip this paragraph if you're uninterested. I've been floating names around like Brotherhood of Gold, or Steel Brotherhood, or something but I'm currently going for Steel Arms. For me it's important they keep an *element* of the BoS name just so the average wastelander can confuse the factions. Caesar seems to believe the Midwest BoS is the same as the normal BoS. The NCR also couldn't tell the difference between Enclave and BoS which is what supposedly kickstarted their war. I gather it's normal to confuse advanced power armored factions.
As for their new backstory I was thinking a tribe in Chicago was descended from the military and grew up in a military base. Easy enough.

Anyways, misc stuff.
When it comes to bandits and raider gangs I feel like other people have already mentioned the ideas I had thought of. Just multiple gangs with the same/similar monikers, possibly even spun off from the same gangs.

Arcade Gannon.
Wasn't really developed much yet and I much prefer his integration into FNV anyways so I'll just go with that version.

The Boulder Dome.
Many ideas from the Boulder Dome were reworked into the DLC Old World Blues. Personally I don't mind having two distinct institutions that are very similar. I like both concepts.

Jericho/New Canaan.
If you don't know early in development they were gonna make New Canaan a town. It's mentioned many times in Honest Hearts. Later they scrapped it and replaced it with Jericho. Just keep New Canaan. That's all I really have to say about this.

The only other contradiction I can think of is the Nursery. Though it doesn't conflict with New Vegas but it does conflict with classic Fallout lore as ghouls were meant to be a one-time thing from Necropolis. Personally, I don't mind the retcon of anyone being able to become a ghoul. I think it should still be very rare. I came up with my own explanation, which you can again skip as it's not entirely relevant.
My idea is that many fallout shelters (including vaults) are built with a specific material that combines with airborne radiation. These two combined are what make ghouls. If it's just radiation then people become the feral ghouls. It shouldn't be possible for a normal ghoul to go feral. And ghouls don't have regeneration like in the tv show. But that's just my headcannon.

If I missed anything let me know but in my humble opinion these are pretty darn good ideas.

 

[Norzan]

IDK, recently Fallout New Vegas has started to feel like it was put too much through the Fallout 3 blender.

Because Bethesda's garbage version of Gamebryo hardly allowed for any complex towns and locations. It's why it's so funny when some Bethesda fans attempt to argue that New Vegas is only good because of Fallout 3, when in reality New Vegas is held back greatly by being in the same engine as Fallout 3.

Basically New Vegas is good in spite of being in the Fallout 3 engine.

 

[Jogre]

Firstly, Hoover Dam.
I headcannon that as the Legion grew more prominent in Arizona they were able to push the NCR back in Nevada/California. So after President Kimball was elected in 2273, he decided to work an arrangement with the local government where the NCR would take over to "ensure protection." Shortly after this agreement Kimball had all of the town's residents evicted and their homes demolished. Hoover Dam was then converted into the military outpost you see in New Vegas. The influx of refugees from the dam into Vegas is what made House decide to speak with the NCR and the rest plays out normally.

Joshua Graham.
I just imagine he either wasn't hanged or he was captured and hanged by a tribe he was taking over. He got loose and killed all the tribals. He still works for Caesar but can join the player to help scout out areas for the Legion and possibly subject more people to Caesar's will.

I don't buy that it's possible to just handwave away the contradictions that easily.

Like Joshua Graham having two separate executions and returning from the dead twice just seems to defeat the point of him as a character. Like, the whole point of the concept is that he's this revenant-like character roaming the earth, believed to be a vengeful spirit by the superstitious. Doing that twice over just doesn't work.

Plus, I think it's silly to pretend that there was once a town in Hoover Dam that nobody mentions, there are no signs of, and most of all, there's no signs of the Trogs that once lived there anywhere.

Like I get the urge, but as it stands, they take place in separate continuities, and one or the other would have to be rewritten to make them fit.

Unrelated but in my headcannon the Midwest BoS have no connection to the actual BoS.

I don't see why. Apart from the Brotherhood being from a Vault in that game, I don't see a problem with the Midwestern BOS as a small expeditionary force that crash-landed in the Midwest, and have had to start recruiting outwards in order to bolster their ranks.

 

[Ugly Kid]

I don't buy that it's possible to just handwave away the contradictions that easily.

Well yeah dialogue would need to be written. I'm under no illusion that New Vegas as is could fit within the Van Buren timeline. As for the trogs I would assume the NCR just cleared them out.

Like Joshua Graham having two separate executions and returning from the dead twice

I don't see how, I feel it would add to his legend. Regardless he doesn't have to be the hanged man it was just something I threw in there. He very well could still be by Caesar’s side and not join the player at all.

I don't see why. Apart from the Brotherhood being from a Vault in that game, I don't see a problem with the Midwestern BOS as a small expeditionary force that crash-landed in the Midwest, and have had to start recruiting outwards in order to bolster their ranks.

My main issue is mostly what many others point out about the BoS in Fallout 3, 4, and 76. Too much BoS just dilutes the world and makes everything feel the same. They become less interesting when there's another chapter every five blocks. Plus the most interesting depiction to me is their classic version where they're a mysterious underground faction.

 

[Golbolco]

I don’t know if this is a controversial opinion or not, but whenever Van Buren and New Vegas contradict each other, I feel like the version from Van Buren is generally more interesting, or at least seems “cooler” to me.

I generally agree with this.

-Vipers (and by extension Jackals) are hardly featured in NV and are just generic raiders, so it’s hard to argue that their Van Buren portrayal is worse. Although I remember being disappointed to read that the first time they would actually appear in a game they would be reduced to essentially slave soldiers with none of their former snake cult trappings.

I've always felt like they needed to switch the role of the Vipers and Jackals in Van Buren. The Vipers are the ones that had a fleshed out design doc while the Jackals were something of a TBD raider group in the context of Fallout 1's cut content. Hecate's servants are called Hounds; that fits the Jackal theme better. The role we see the Jackals play in the Boulder Dome design doc could easily be given to the Vipers with very few alterations.

The only quibble is that you couldn't call Hecate's fortress Ouroboros; the snake theme falls apart without the Vipers. Instead, call it something like Cerberus to fit the hound/jackal theme.

 

[Jogre]

I've always felt like they needed to switch the role of the Vipers and Jackals in Van Buren. The Vipers are the ones that had a fleshed out design doc while the Jackals were something of a TBD raider group in the context of Fallout 1's cut content. Hecate's servants are called Hounds; that fits the Jackal theme better. The role we see the Jackals play in the Boulder Dome design doc could easily be given to the Vipers with very few alterations.

I find it strange that, to the best of my knowledge, there are no mods adding Vipers or Jackals into Fallout 1. Like the Restoration Project adds the EPA, something that previously only existed in design documents. Some modders are trying to recreate Van Buren as faithfully as possible, some people have made total overhauls of the games that add entirely new content.

It's possible that Fallout 1 might just be less moddable than 2 or whatever, but IDK, Lexx recreated the entirety of Fallout 1 in the Fallout 2 engine, so that could be a base.

 

[Golbolco]

I had this discussion with Lexx at one point about reintroducing the Vipers into Et Tu based on Scott Campbell's design doc. The short of it was: he doesn't like the idea, and he doesn't think the RPU added anything of value for Fallout 2 so he doesn't want to replicated that. I think he may have singled out a dislike of the maps. I disagree, but I'm not the Et Tu maintainer.

It is possible for anyone to make an add-on to Et Tu for Vipers (and your best bet for the Jackals would be to grab the location from Fallout: Sonora and port it to Et Tu). If Lexx won't, then someone else would have to pick it up.

 

[Jogre]

It is possible for anyone to make an add-on to Et Tu for Vipers (and your best bet for the Jackals would be to grab the location from Fallout: Sonora and port it to Et Tu). If Lexx won't, then someone else would have to pick it up.

See, originally I agreed with him on the Restoration Project in that I thought a lot of the locations were cut for a reason, but having replayed again recently, I've come round to it a lot more.

I think the Abbey is a decent quest hub, I like Father Tully having a bit of a backstory, and it works fine as an alternative way of finding Vault 15. I think the EPA is a decent dungeon, I like that it can kinda be approached non-linearly, I think it's cool how there are multiple quests that get resolved by going there, my only gripe is I wish the Experimental Seeds you plant in Arroyo could do more, like if it felt like you were genuinely pushing back the villages demise by planting them, especially since the Seeds was one of the main things to do in the EPA, but it doesn't feel bad, so much as it feels like unfinished content.

Sulik's tribe is genuinely really well done, and it feels satisfying to be able to go back after rescuing his sister.

Hell, even Kaga who I previously disliked, I've come around to. The dialogue that the Bridge Guard in Arroyo gives you, about how Kaga is a cautionary tale for wandering out in the wastes because life in the city can be corrupting felt like it fit, because that is a genuine theme in Fallout 2, and it feels appropriate seeing New Reno and The Den and remembering this is what corrupted Kaga. Though the encounters are kinda rare.

It is possible for anyone to make an add-on to Et Tu for Vipers (and your best bet for the Jackals would be to grab the location from Fallout: Sonora and port it to Et Tu). If Lexx won't, then someone else would have to pick it up.

How easy is Fallout 2 modding? I wouldn't mind doing a little bit of it.

 

[Golbolco]

How easy is Fallout 2 modding? I wouldn't mind doing a little bit of it.

Much easier than the community (especially certain youtubers claim) but you must know how to script in SSL. If you don't know scripting it won't amount to much; there is no shortage of custom art assets and maps floating around, but no scripts to make them into meaningful content. Check out Quantum Apprentice's modding tutorial here.