Nuka World should have been its own game

[CT Phipps]

Anyone agree?

They could have set it in Orlando or nearby it and had Nuka World as the center of the game the way New Vegas was.

Massively expanded the factions.

It's just so much...BETTER than the main game.

And I was OKAY with the main game.

It gave me lots and lots of entertainment.

I just didn't LOVE it the way I did Nuka World. It didn't have the iconicness of the setting which Nuka World did in spades.

 

[Dr Fallout]

...
Let's trivialize Fallout even further!

 

[CT Phipps]

...
Let's trivialize Fallout even further!

You'll have to be a little more specific because I'm not sure what's trivial about it. Theme parks are by nature a perfect metaphor for Pre-War America. They're places which allegedly exist for people to have fun and be idealized fantasies but they're actually cynical consumerist tourist traps which are usually run by deeply cynical businessman and abused underpaid employees.

They're also beautiful and awful at the same time.

About the only problem is Las Vegas serves this exact same function.

 

[Dr Fallout]

You'll have to be a little more specific because I'm not sure what's trivial about it. Theme parks are by nature a perfect metaphor for Pre-War America. They're places which allegedly exist for people to have fun and be idealized fantasies but they're actually cynical consumerist tourist traps which are usually run by deeply cynical businessman and abused underpaid employees.

They're also beautiful and awful at the same time.

About the only problem is Las Vegas serves this exact same function.

Because the only thing people are going to take away from this is the following.
1. GUNZ
2. CRETURZ
3. KEWL LOCATIONS
4. AWSUM FITES!!!

Be honest, the majority of people aren't going to dive in looking for hidden meanings. Also, you fail to realize the New Vegas is vastly different because firstly, there is nothing childlike in Casinos that there is in themeparks. Secondly, Casinos are actually vilifed by many as dens of corruption which doesn't occur with theme parks. Thirdly, Casinos have big money at stake, and can ruin the lives of many not in any way connected by jobs.

 

[CT Phipps]

Because the only thing people are going to take away from this is the following.
1. GUNZ
2. CRETURZ
3. KEWL LOCATIONS
4. AWSUM FITES!!!

Be honest, the majority of people aren't going to dive in looking for hidden meanings. Also, you fail to realize the New Vegas is vastly different because firstly, there is nothing childlike in Casinos that there is in themeparks. Secondly, Casinos are actually vilifed by many as dens of corruption which doesn't occur with theme parks. Thirdly, Casinos have big money at stake, and can ruin the lives of many not in any way connected by jobs.

The difference being, primarily that casinos are marketed to adults and theme parks are marketed to children. Indeed, Las Vegas had a serious issue with the fact they had tried to become more family friendly and that had backfired as it made tourism suffer. People wanted Vegas to be a place where they could unwind in horrible ways and thus they shifted back from that--but I still remember all the theme parks in Vegas.

Ultimately, good writing would be what would make Nuka World a better Fallout 4 than Fallout 4 had been. I would have loved expansion of the Raider Gangs there and the people opposing them. Sadly, I think this game feels like they took a very good standalone game and they stripped it down.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The difference being, primarily that casinos are marketed to adults and theme parks are marketed to children. Indeed, Las Vegas had a serious issue with the fact they had tried to become more family friendly and that had backfired as it made tourism suffer. People wanted Vegas to be a place where they could unwind in horrible ways and thus they shifted back from that--but I still remember all the theme parks in Vegas.

Ultimately, good writing would be what would make Nuka World a better Fallout 4 than Fallout 4 had been. I would have loved expansion of the Raider Gangs there and the people opposing them. Sadly, I think this game feels like they took a very good standalone game and they stripped it down.

Also, Casinos are much more corrupt and reviled due to the stakes they hold and how people can lose millions in gambling. Gambling is considered a dangerous addiction by many, when has going to the theme park be considered one (then you find an obscure addiction for theme park going people). Except there aren't any in New Vegas which is what I'm talking about.

 

[CT Phipps]

Also, Casinos are much more corrupt and reviled due to the stakes they hold and how people can lose millions in gambling. Gambling is considered a dangerous addiction by many, when has going to the theme park be considered one (then you find an obscure addiction for theme park going people). Except there aren't any in New Vegas which is what I'm talking about.

Oh there's all sorts of horrible things you can and could do with an evil Pre-War Theme Park like Nuka World. Disney and Coca Cola both have wonderful horror stories you could pull from. If this were an actual game, I admit I'd totally rip off Venture Brothers.

"When the Bombs Hit, the children of the theme park were rushed to a special underground vault for protection by the concerned and helpful park tour guides. The executives, who had been planning to use it themselves, were outraged by this and demanded the children to be turned out. They locked themselves in and now there's a bunch of pint sized ghouls inside since the Vault had been poorly constructed."

We could also have animatronic enemies, more animal costumed monsters, and so on.

Not sure how to expand the main story, though.

 

[Vergil]

>base an entire Fallout game over a tiny, gimmicky location
>make the story and themes revolve around pre-war bullshit
>out right claiming that Fallout 4 and Nuka World were good

 

[Dr Fallout]

Oh there's all sorts of horrible things you can and could do with an evil Pre-War Theme Park like Nuka World. Disney and Coca Cola both have wonderful horror stories you could pull from. If this were an actual game, I admit I'd totally rip off Venture Brothers.

"When the Bombs Hit, the children of the theme park were rushed to a special underground vault for protection by the concerned and helpful park tour guides. The executives, who had been planning to use it themselves, were outraged by this and demanded the children to be turned out. They locked themselves in and now there's a bunch of pint sized ghouls inside since the Vault had been poorly constructed."

We could also have animatronic enemies, more animal costumed monsters, and so on.

Not sure how to expand the main story, though.

Please stop, this is honestly sapping away my will to live. Who wants more animatronics and costumed animals. Give me the deeper politics of expanding factions, the more interesting world of Zion or new locations in the US. This is like someone took OWB, stretched it out and got rid of all that was honestly funny and well written.

 

[CT Phipps]

So, what was your problem with Nuka World?

I mean, I went into the Nuka thread and got 15 pages of talking about anything BUT the DLC.

Aside from a shitty good option and underdeveloped gangs, I don't get what people disliked.

Please stop, this is honestly sapping away my will to live. Who wants more animatronics and costumed animals. Give me the deeper politics of expanding factions, the more interesting world of Zion or new locations in the US. This is like someone took OWB, stretched it out and got rid of all that was honestly funny and well written.

Honest Hearts was very fun but I'm talking about both gameplay AND storytelling. Gameplay is about what's interesting to shoot and fun to destroy.

Story is about RPGing and world-building.

Which Nuka World needed more of as I was intrigued by every gang and characters like the Traders. Sadly, I can't seem to find a thread where people want to discuss the merits of the game and flaws.

 

[Dr Fallout]

So, what was your problem with Nuka World?

I mean, I went into the Nuka thread and got 15 pages of talking about anything BUT the DLC.

Aside from a shitty good option and underdeveloped gangs, I don't get what people disliked.

1. Too gimmicky. It wasn't serious but tried to with the gangs and attempt at making an 'evil' option.
2. Tarzan and Ghoulrillas.
3. Boring dialogue and little meaningful choices that changed a lot.
4. While it was also going serious it tried too hard for humor. OWB made fun of science fiction during the fifties, and how outrageous and yet hilariously stupid it was. Not to forget...
5. There are no really memorable characters.

 

[CT Phipps]

1. Too gimmicky. It wasn't serious but tried to with the gangs and attempt at making an 'evil' option.
2. Tarzan and Ghoulrillas.
3. Boring dialogue and little meaningful choices that changed a lot.
4. While it was also going serious it tried too hard for humor. OWB made fun of science fiction during the fifties, and how outrageous and yet hilariously stupid it was. Not to forget...
5. There are no really memorable characters.

1. I think it played to Bethesda's strengths of being about environment above plotting. It's a memorable location which has a justification for multiple different kinds of locations in one area. You have the Zoo, the Space Invaders material, the Kiddie Carnivale, and the Bottling Plant. I think they were all way too small but they could have been expanded on while keeping the wonder of exploring multiple settings.

2. I was really expecting the Ghoulrillas to turn out to be animatronic robots as that would have made it all the more sad and hilarious.

3. There is *A* choice which is more than in the main game. Still, I wanted a much more expanded good option. "A Fistful of Caps" where yoyu go undercover.

4. well, I think that's not Old World Blues. I think you're describing Fallout as a whole. Lonesome Road failed in part because it forgot nuclear war in Fallout is silly for the most part, not serious.

5. I loved the Operators, Nisha, and Daiisy. I also thought Gage had a really interesting story if you maxed his reputation. It really humanized the Raiders and I wanted to see more of it and maybe even find a peaceful solution.

 

[Dr Fallout]

1. I think it played to Bethesda's strengths of being about environment above plotting. It's a memorable location which has a justification for multiple different kinds of locations in one area. You have the Zoo, the Space Invaders material, the Kiddie Carnivale, and the Bottling Plant. I think they were all way too small but they could have been expanded on while keeping the wonder of exploring multiple settings.

2. I was really expecting the Ghoulrillas to turn out to be animatronic robots as that would have made it all the more sad and hilarious.

3. There is *A* choice which is more than in the main game. Still, I wanted a much more expanded good option. "A Fistful of Caps" where yoyu go undercover.

4. well, I think that's not Old World Blues. I think you're describing Fallout as a whole. Lonesome Road failed in part because it forgot nuclear war in Fallout is silly for the most part, not serious.

5. I loved the Operators, Nisha, and Daiisy. I also thought Gage had a really interesting story if you maxed his reputation. It really humanized the Raiders and I wanted to see more of it and maybe even find a peaceful solution.

1. That's the thing, too many times Bethesda sacrifices plot and writing for their environment which they do badly. Hear me out, it's interesting but there's no realism or authenticity. It's like some 8 year old took a map maker and plonked whatever cool thing he wanted.
2. I was really expecting them not to exist. Also they're not funny. I fail to see how they're funny.
3. Except there's too few of them in comparison to say Fallout New Vegas or the original games. The choice is still badly done and just because it has more then the main game is no proper excuse.
4. You haven't played the originals have you? Where is the nuclear war silly in there?
5. Characterize them.

 

[CT Phipps]

4. You haven't played the originals have you? Where is the nuclear war silly in there?

I seriously sometimes wonder if there's an R-rated Directors' Cut of Fallout which ignores all the fun of the games for some bleak depressing Walking Dead story because the Fallout 1 and 2 *I* remember had Elvis imprints, Lou Tenant, Monty Python jokes, a gigantic cyborg Super Mutant named after a Clint Eastwood character, a meeting with the developers, a forced marriage with a hillbilly pair of siblings, Hubologists, becoming a pornstar, and a fight between Bruce Lee and Lo Pan.

To describe it in a paragraph, Fallout to me is, "A outrageous send up of 1950s science fiction and Cold War fears with lots of choice and roleplaying options."

 

[Dr Fallout]

I seriously sometimes wonder if there's an R-rated Directors' Cut of Fallout which ignores all the fun of the games for some bleak depressing Walking Dead story because the Fallout 1 and 2 *I* remember had Elvis imprints, Lou Tenant, Monty Python jokes, a gigantic cyborg Super Mutant named after a Clint Eastwood character, a meeting with the developers, a forced marriage with a hillbilly pair of siblings, Hubologists, becoming a pornstar, and a fight between Bruce Lee and Lo Pan.

I was referring to the original, in which case they were merely Easter Eggs and not to be taken seriously. Fallout 2 had a really interesting political fight-it-out with the different factions but also had lots of Easter Eggs and.... and... ughh San Fran.

Also how is Lou Tenant funny in any way? Also porn is a pretty serious industry... and forced marriage isn't something to laugh about.

 

[CT Phipps]

I was referring to the original, in which case they were merely Easter Eggs and not to be taken seriously. Fallout 2 had a really interesting political fight-it-out with the different factions but also had lots of Easter Eggs and.... and... ughh San Fran.

Also how is Lou Tenant funny in any way? Also porn is a pretty serious industry... and forced marriage isn't something to laugh about.

Fallout had the same "It's Wasteland 2 but not really" as the original Wasteland which had giant armored bunnies and robots in Vegas. It wasn't focused on the horrors of nuclear war, the loss of civilization, or the tragedies of a slow death by radiation poisoning (most of which we get in Bethesda games to their credit) but the surealness of how a post-nuclear war society which has developed in odd Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome/A Boy and His Dog-esque ways.

Metro is a more serious take on it or, even in the Fallout universe, Lonesome Road and both are just depressing. Fallout is, fundamentally, about being FUN for the sake of fun. It's to nuclear what Dead Rising is to zombies.

The point of the game is to go out dressed like Zombie Abraham Lincoln and murder slavers.

Or talk the Flesh-Shoggoth computer to death by pointing out his Master Race is...kind of flawed.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Fallout had the same "It's Wasteland 2 but not really" as the original Wasteland which had giant armored bunnies and robots in Vegas. It wasn't focused on the horrors of nuclear war, the loss of civilization, or the tragedies of a slow death by radiation poisoning (most of which we get in Bethesda games to their credit) but the surealness of how a post-nuclear war society which has developed in odd Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome/A Boy and His Dog-esque ways.

Metro is a more serious take on it or, even in the Fallout universe, Lonesome Road and both are just depressing. Fallout is, fundamentally, about being FUN for the sake of fun.

But it doesn't... there are no insane raider gangs raping and pillaging, there are no giant armoured bunnies and very few robots (why are you moving the goalposts to New Vegas when I referred to the originals specifically Fallout 1). There are small towns trading with each other and making a living, people fighting for control and dominance. It's like life but in the post apocalypse. There's very little silly in the originals something you have yet to prove,

 

[CerberusGate]

Fallout is, fundamentally, about being FUN for the sake of fun.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees there... Fallout can be more than mindless fun that Bethesda is pushing for. It can allow for post-apocalyptic ideas and themes to be explored through a contemporary (or rather fictional) setting like the classics and New Vegas. The goofiness should not have to be the focus.

Tim Cain even said this about the original Fallout:

My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun

Even if 2 did become silly, it had rather dark and grim occurrences and events to balance it out. New Vegas wisely locked away it's silly content behind a trait. So I don't understand why Fallout suddenly has to be all about the fun.

 

[CT Phipps]

But it doesn't... there are no insane raider gangs raping and pillaging, there are no giant armoured bunnies and very few robots (why are you moving the goalposts to New Vegas when I referred to the originals specifically Fallout 1). There are small towns trading with each other and making a living, people fighting for control and dominance. It's like life but in the post apocalypse. There's very little silly in the originals something you have yet to prove,

"It's not at all silly like the originals, discounting Fallout 2."

JK. I kid.

But yes, for me the quintessence of Fallout is Fallout 2. For me, it was my first Fallout game and while I played the first game, it was fundamentally an inferior game to me because of its general lack of humor by comparison. Bethesda has yet to approach anything as awesome as my Elvis impersonator martial artist super genius Chosen One tribal sleeping with both Bishop women as he pursued his career in porn and boxing while working as a hitman on the side.

Nuka World, for me, represents a step in the right direction. A return to the absolutely INSANE which I am still hoping will come back en force.

But different strokes for different folks.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Also if it's fun you wanted why couldn't have Bethesda made a new IP? Fallout has been changed massively, and the Fallout may know is nothing like the original games.