Religion is the root of all evil

[Zaij]

The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, is another one of those books that looks into history and finds organized religion to be the culprit of just about every atrocity commited by man.

Do you guys reckon that religion is the cause of much of the suffering of the world? Was it the cause of most wars? And if so, was it just a pretence, or was it the underlying reason behind it?

Personally, I've always though of the crusades using religion as just an excuse, where really it's just the influential and powerful seeking more of both power and influence. Then people throw the inquisition and witch burnings into the equation and, while I condemn the loss of life, I can name worse atrocities commited by non-religious players.

Being agnostic, both atheists and the religious can piss me off on occasion (usually being the more extrene "I'm going to prove to you God does/doesn't exist"), but I see these atheist authors writing books claiming that religion is the root of all evil and I group them with christians that see there being no evidence for evolution and the like.

 

[Kleist]

Oh dear God no.

If I would hate one form of herd more than the Christians it would be yours.

Edit: Oops I didn't read your post quite properly. But I still consider you a contemptible herd animal so it does not really matter.

 

[Duckman]

I thought women were the root of all evil.

 

[alec]

Oh no: not another religious thread!

Religion is indeed the rot of all evil, though. And it don't matter where you look in the world: it's religion that delivered the foundations for all those truly awesome societies in the world: the medieval muslim world where they cut off young girl's clits and force them to be illiterate until they visit the grave that bears their name. It's our good ol' Christian god who gave us (written!) permission to fuck up our fauna and flora and invest and build a society that thrives on economic growth, industrial pollution and lots of bling bling.
If Europeans would have been buddhists, Europe would look totally different and be organized in a completely different way.
Religion is also the reason why women are regarded as second class human beings in - roughly - 75% of the world and why no one really gives a fuck about the medical history and future of our beloved little planet: God will save us all eventually.
I hate religion and I hate gods. I hate the muslim god because he is obviously retarded and sponsors violence and war, and I hate the Christian god because he is obviously insane. I hate the god from the Old Testament, because he treats humans like cattle and also stimulates violence. I guess Buddhism is a little better, being much more of a philosophy than simple idolatry, but it's organized like a religion and therefore I do not like it.

Build your own set of values, your own set of beliefs. And let those be the content of your own personal 'manual for life'.

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

I thought women were the root of all evil.

No, it's the desire to live, so stop it, DIE DIE, so I can live better.

But about the religion, it can be the cause of evil, if the power that can be gained is wielded wrongfully, but that's nowadays only problem for the cultists(?) and their relatives. Before the 20th century, the religions were much more powerful in influence, and thus much more likely to cause bad things. But the root of the problems are always the will/need to survive, the better equipmen... blah blah blah, for it makes us to become better. And the thought that evolution has ended already, is sadly mistaken, or did you forgot more today, than you knew yesterday, and how could you know?

Build your own set of values, your own set of beliefs. And let those be the content of your own personal 'manual for life'.

And if possible, be prased as the great devine, as your subjects begin to eat their blessed arsenic.

 

[SuAside]

Do you guys reckon that religion is the cause of much of the suffering of the world? Was it the cause of most wars? And if so, was it just a pretence, or was it the underlying reason behind it?

i reckon that hunger for power & wealth is the cause of most suffering and wars around the world.

religion is just a tool through which this can be achieved. religion has been corrupted like so many other ideals or organisations.
most religions used to serve a laudable purpose, but have long since been either outdated or perverted.

I hate religion and I hate gods. I hate the muslim god because he is obviously retarded and sponsors violence and war, and I hate the Christian god because he is obviously insane. I hate the god from the Old Testament, because he treats humans like cattle and also stimulates violence.

you suck...

 

[Jebus]

Personally, I've always though of the crusades using religion as just an excuse, where really it's just the influential and powerful seeking more of both power and influence.

This is an old myth, which really lacks a lot of ground.

It is said that the main group of nobles in the crusades were 'second sons' - the ones that had to watch their oldest brother inherit all titles and wealth, and went out to the holy land to carve out their own nation from the muslims. It is said that the crusaders were lured to the levant by promises of returning loaded with gold, titles and pretty wenches. It is said that the only point of the crusades was to create kindoms and duchies for landless nobles. etc. etc.

That is mostly without ground, though, and are usually stories semi-fabricated by historians who want to show us, heirs of the Roman-catholic belief system, how cruel, vicious and cynical medieval christians really were.
Because you know, the crusades WERE about religion. There is not a single man, A SINGLE MAN, that came back from the crusades richer than when he left. Tancred de Normandie, for instance, had to put a mortgage on his entire country to be able to finance his crusade. Raymond de Toulouse, the richest man of Western-Europe, came back a heck of a lot poorer than when he left.

I'm not going to argue that there was, indeed, a minority that was lured to parttake in the crusade for earthly gains. There was indeed a group of impoverished nobility, poor peasants and the likes whose first goal was to enrich itself. But, as I said, they were a minority. And they all died of hunger anyway.

I mean, the basic premise of the crusade speaks for itself: the crusaders made a deal with the Byzantine emperor that they would 'give back' all lands conquered (except Jerusalem) to the Byzantine emperor. They pretty much stuck to their word too - until they reached Antiocheia, upon which point the greed and rivalry between the de Toulouses and the de Normandies led to the crusaders occupying and keeping the city. There was, of course, looting, plundering etc. - but if one is aware of medieval warfare one would know that that was the only way to forage and organise logistics in those days. In reality, a large majority of crusaders died of hunger and empoverishment during and returning from the crusade.

If you read about the crusade itself, it's also noticeable that religious fervor was really what drove them forward. From the Holy Lance unearthed in Antiochea to the Finger of St-Joris from Adhémar, the Papal legate, it were relics that riled the crusaders up, and that gave them the psychological edge over the muslim armies.

People underestimate how fundamentalistic and fanatical medieval christians really were. Just because some (ab)used the crusades for their own gain does not mean that the crusades were only about power - just look at the people's crusade of Peter the Heremite, for instance.

Not that mudering out of religious fervor is any better than mudering out of greed, of course.

PS It's pretty fun to try to write this stuff without your boss seeing.

 

[Zaij]

I hate religion and I hate gods

It's always bothered me when someone has said that they hated God because God is so different from person to person. What you're telling me when you say you hate God is that you hate a certain idea that you have in your mind that God would be, and it wouldn't necessarily be correct (providing there is one, of course)

Because you know, the crusades WERE about religion. There is not a single man, A SINGLE MAN, that came back from the crusades richer than when he left. Tancred de Normandie, for instance, had to put a mortgage on his entire country to be able to finance his crusade. Raymond de Toulouse, the richest man of Western-Europe, came back a heck of a lot poorer than when he left.

I didn't say anything about the crusades being about seeking wealth. It doesn't tell me anything about the politics going on between the papacy and kingdoms of the era. Because that's what I was under the impression the reason for the crusades was. Just another stage of a political power struggle. After all, it would be unreasonable to assume that the papacy didn't learn a thing or two from the Roman Empire about political powerplays and the like.

If you read about the crusade itself, it's also noticeable that religious fervor was really what drove them forward. From the Holy Lance unearthed in Antiochea to the Finger of St-Joris from Adhémar, the Papal legate, it were relics that riled the crusaders up, and that gave them the psychological edge over the muslim armies.

Still, that doesn't mean that the reason behind it was religous. Sure, many of the soldiers and so on may have been in the grip of religious fervor when they went on crusades, but it doens't mean that all or even most of the leaders were.

 

[alec]

I hate religion and I hate gods

It's always bothered me when someone has said that they hated God because God is so different from person to person. What you're telling me when you say you hate God is that you hate a certain idea that you have in your mind that God would be, and it wouldn't necessarily be correct (providing there is one, of course)

So, what are you saying here? That God is different from person to person? That makes no fucking sense at all. Sure, I get you: impressions and what have you will always be subjective and personal, but if your Christian God has eight arms and tits and your neighbour's Christian God has a fat cock and anal warts, then there is something blatantly wrong with that God of yours, pipsqueak.
In fact, it proves to me - once again - that all your gods and all your religions are nothing but cheap braincrap for retards and other failures.
STOP RUINING YOUR TIME, LIFE, COMMON SENSE... WITH THESE LIES, PEOPLE! Wake the fuck up and smell the waste: you're all alone. We're all alone. And everything can (or will eventually) be explained by science: chemistry, maths, biology...
How big a mongrel do you have to be to lack the intelligence to figure this stuff out for yourself anyway?
There should be a restriction about posting religious crap in this forum. The stupidity that some of our members dare to post in order to please their virtual buddha, is annoying and, thus, bad for my health.

 

[Zaij]

So, what are you saying here? That God is different from person to person? That makes no fucking sense at all. Sure, I get you: impressions and what have you will always be subjective and personal, but if your Christian God has eight arms and tits and your neighbour's Christian God has a fat cock and anal warts, then there is something blatantly wrong with that God of yours, pipsqueak.

Er. No what I was saying is that no one can know what God is if there is one (hence the, "I'm agnostic"), so hating him/her/it is stupid because you don't know anything about him/her/it.

I hate one specific amoeba that is in India because... I dunno. Real smart there, sparky.

In fact, it proves to me - once again - that all your gods and all your religions are nothing but cheap braincrap for retards and other failures.

Yeah, because somebody in South America who has a shit life and can't make it better believes in a God because it gives them some hope. Lets focus on everything as if everyone in the world is from a first world country and only has to worry about when the next episode of Family Guy is on.

STOP RUINING YOUR TIME, LIFE, COMMON SENSE... WITH THESE LIES, PEOPLE! Wake the fuck up and smell the waste: you're all alone. We're all alone.

Emo alert.

And everything can (or will eventually) be explained by science: chemistry, maths, biology...

That's right, it's stupid to have blind faith... if that faith is in a religion or God. Of course, science and logic are infalliable. Blindly believe in their supreme knowledge and power science and technology because there isn't even the remotest chance there there could be something that can't be explained.

How big a mongrel do you have to be to lack the intelligence to figure this stuff out for yourself anyway?
There should be a restriction about posting religious crap in this forum. The stupidity that some of our members dare to post in order to please their virtual buddha, is annoying and, thus, bad for my health.

Your ignorance irritates me.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Being agnostic, both atheists and the religious can piss me off on occasion

Really, dude, claiming you're in the middle and that neither of the views can be proved doesn't make you a wonder of the world.
You don't seem to understand that God is such a loose concept that can never be disproved. In fact proving something doesn't exists, has no logical meaning.
On the other hand, though, if something cannot be disproved doesn't mean it exists.
Gods and such have no place in our universe. A universe that runs very well by itself is only complicated by the existence of gods.
And thus, you, agsnostics really have no reason to exist other than just being there claiming to be smarter than anyone else and being labeled as something just like any other cattle.
Let go of the labels, and fucking think for yourself.

 

[Zaij]

...

Well, look who's acting all high and mighty here.

I think it's quite clear that you're having trouble working out what you're trying to say.

You don't seem to understand that God is such a loose concept that can never be disproved. In fact proving something doesn't exists, has no logical meaning.
On the other hand, though, if something cannot be disproved doesn't mean it exists.

That's pretty much one of the central tenets of agnosticism. Maybe you should look it up before you start writing about it.

A universe that runs very well by itself is only complicated by the existence of gods.

But then you'd have to ask yourself: how do you know the universe runs very well by itself without the interference of a God? Maybe it is some God that is making it run smoothly. Yes, it's a stupid response, but it was a stupid and ill-thought out comment that prompted it.

 

[Jebus]

I didn't say anything about the crusades being about seeking wealth. It doesn't tell me anything about the politics going on between the papacy and kingdoms of the era. Because that's what I was under the impression the reason for the crusades was. Just another stage of a political power struggle. After all, it would be unreasonable to assume that the papacy didn't learn a thing or two from the Roman Empire about political powerplays and the like.

The political powerplays that may have been in the background of Urban's call sure were there - but that hardly says anything about the ten of thousands of Latin cristians that were the ones that actually, y'know, crusaded.

Still, that doesn't mean that the reason behind it was religous. Sure, many of the soldiers and so on may have been in the grip of religious fervor when they went on crusades, but it doens't mean that all or even most of the leaders were.

They were, though, mostly. To undestand why a rich, powerfull lord would sell a lot of its assets, leave his own country behind and go on an adventure that puts all he and his ancesters worked and died for, one should try to understand how medieval Latin christians thought.
In a world that had every single aspect ruled by christian dogma, there was one thought that captured the mind of every christian, peasant or lord alike: fear of hell. The nobility was constantly torn between the warnings and dogmas of the church, and the bloody reality of medieval feudal warfare and power. It causes many a noble to, when they were not off killing someone, dedicate almost their whole life to washing away their sins. Pelgrimages, church donations, founding monasteries etc. took years of their life and fortunes - and yet they were never able to fully cleanse their soul, as there would always be anoter claimant or rebel they'd have to fight.

So when Urban promised these nobles that their soul would be completely cleansed if they fought for God, and that all men that died in the crusade would immediately go to heaven, they didn't have to think twice.

 

[SuAside]

*snip*

it is not because the individual is a believer that those beliefs cannot be abused to work for another cause.

& alec: loosen up kiddo. have a Duvel & suck on your missus' toe a little. you're smarter than this pathetic emo debate so stop playing the attentionwhore.

 

[Jebus]

*snip*

it is not because the individual is a believer that those beliefs cannot be abused to work for another cause.

Of course - I am not arguing that religious fervor was the only reason the crusades were held, I'm arguing that the myth that power, influence and wealth was the main motivation for the vast majority of crusaders, or even the pope, is just that - a myth.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That's pretty much one of the central tenets of agnosticism.

With the slight difference that agnostics want to stay on the safe side and keep saying "what if it is" and "what if it's not" without using any reason or logic.

But then you'd have to ask yourself: how do you know the universe runs very well by itself without the interference of a God? Maybe it is some God that is making it run smoothly.

As I just said: "what if?!"

The bullshit "philosophy" of the agnostics.

Do you have any logic in saying "what if it's God beyond all this?" other then, well: "hey, it could be!"?

Edit: You people should really get right your definition of "emo".

 

[alec]

From the tone of your last post, I take it you are a real 'specialist' when it comes to religion, eh, pipsqueak. Tell me, though: why does everything you state, sound like utter bullshit then?

Er. No what I was saying is that no one can know what God is if there is one (hence the, "I'm agnostic"), so hating him/her/it is stupid because you don't know anything about him/her/it.

Oh, so now you limit your views to agnosticism. Great. Get this, pipsqueak: agnosticists are a minority. Most fuckheads out there have a very clear and well-defined image of their so called god. They even seem to possess holy scriptures, written by the hand of that god (which makes him pretty goddamn humanoid, pipsqueak) that tell them what they can and can't do. Well, get this, pipsqueak: the Bible, one of those holy books, even states that humans where built according to His image! How the fuck do you like that, eh, 'Specialist'? Or should I start calling you Amateur, since that seems to suit you better?
The only religion that states pretty goddamn clearly that no images of God may be made with human hands is Islam. And guess what: even they have made images of him in the past. And even better yet: mister Allah looks pretty goddamn human - yet again.
It's pretty simple, pipsqueak: you're talking out of your big smelly arse, which is pretty much what can be expected from agnostics: they're the undecided bunch of wankers that go 'Well, maybe there is something more, but I have lmimited brain functions, so I won't bother thinking it through, okay?'
You sorry bunch irritate me even more than all those true believers out there: at least they have the guts to take sides, just like atheists.

I hate one specific amoeba that is in India because... I dunno. Real smart there, sparky.

You calling me Sparky there, pipsqueak? Nice.
Your statement is another one of your brainfarts that doesn't make sense at all, though. Then again: what can one expect from someone who's proud to be agnostic.

Yeah, because somebody in South America who has a shit life and can't make it better believes in a God because it gives them some hope. Lets focus on everything as if everyone in the world is from a first world country and only has to worry about when the next episode of Family Guy is on.

Oh, it gives them hope eh, does it? Hope is a medicine for sissies, pipsqueak. Oh, so you're a poor black girl in some poor African country and you're father is a religious arsehole who falls on his knees every two hours to pray to something that isn't there (they lock you up in a cosy white isolated room for far less nowadays) and he decides to take a blunt pocketknife and cut off your clit and labia. What do you do? Pipsqueak here says that at least our tormented, poor black girl can cling to her god, the same fucking non-existant piece of bullshit that forced her father to cut of her jewels. It'll give her hope! Hope!
Know what an atheist would do? He'd take the blunt knife, cut of his fathers limp dick with it and feed it to the pidgeons. Or he'll flee that crappy place and instead of hoping for a better life, actually go seek it and "hopefully" find it.

Emo alert.

Right. Alec is pretty much the most emotional member on this forum.

The only reason I'm using capitals, is because I "hope" that that way, you might actually get it.
But you don't, do you?
No, you don't.
Poor pipsqueak.

]That's right, it's stupid to have blind faith... if that faith is in a religion or God. Of course, science and logic are infalliable. Blindly believe in their supreme knowledge and power science and technology because there isn't even the remotest chance there there could be something that can't be explained.

That's fucking right. Science can explain everything. It can also explain why humans will never be able to explain everything. You know why that is? Because we have our limitations. Our brains are in fact less complex than the brains of dolphins.
Oh, humans have done and still can do amazing things, but they will never (NEVER, pipsqueak) figure out everything. And they'll make mistakes as well, sure they will. Science makes mistakes now and then, until someone comes along who spots the mistake and corrects is.
This is what science has to say about the Bible, for instance: it's a bunch of lies and crap. Historically, the book makes no sense at all, it's filled with blatant untruths and fragmented halftruths. It's a work of fiction, filled with often amazing (yet tiresome) stories and poems and that's fucking it.
This is what science says about the beginning of reality: one big fucking bang, mofo, a revolution of space and time, a cosmic symphony, tantalizing, breathtaking, often unbelievable in its complexity. This means no master creator who (and this is where I'm getting a little appaled) managed to create every goddman atom of reality in 6 fucking days. Six. Not seven, 'cause on the seventh day, that dipshit thought he was already finished and chilled out. His work: reality. Wow. Infinite space filled with balls of fire, balls of death and one particularly petite ball filled with "special" things, humans, shaped like him, the master creator.

Your ignorance and blind stupidity hurts my eyes.

You will need to eat some more and grow up some more before you will be able to offend or outwit me, pipsqueak. In the meantime I advice you to make a choice: do you want to be a loser (religious believer) or a winner (atheist)? Or are you going to stay an undecided agnosticist? The one with the limited brain functions, the one that just can't figure it out: "Well, it's possible ther's something more, but you know: my brains can't calculate the truth for me: that there is no God."
Ah well. Take care, pipsqueak!

& alec: loosen up kiddo. have a Duvel & suck on your missus' toe a little. you're smarter than this pathetic emo debate so stop playing the attentionwhore.

Kiddo? Nah, I don't think so. Also: your attempts at back moderating (almost on a daily basis) are not just irritating me, pipsqueak. I think we both know which of us two is the real attention whore here, boy.

 

[SuAside]

Kiddo? Nah, I don't think so.

don't worry about it, sport, i call everyone a kid, even my dad.

but still, you're acting pretty immature, so it's appropreate anyway.

Also: your attempts at back moderating (almost on a daily basis) are not just irritating me, pipsqueak. I think we both know which of us two is the real attention whore here, boy.

aw, how cute, trying to hurt my feelings.

call it as you will, but i'm not the one making a fool out of himself trying to act cool by spouting random pseudo-intellectual flames over a nonsensical debate.

still, whatever floats your boat... i just expected better from you.

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

And thus, you, agsnostics really have no reason to exist other than just being there claiming to be smarter than anyone else and being labeled as something just like any other cattle.

Or he can determine his life purpose for himself, independent form his belief in god (or belief sustem), like reproducing as much as possible while still keeping some sort of standard of life.

The stupidity that some of our members dare to post in order to please their virtual buddha, is annoying and, thus, bad for my health.

Ah, boys, lets kill him.

 

[alec]

call it as you will, but i'm not the one making a fool out of himself trying to act cool by spouting random pseudo-intellectual flames over a nonsensical debate.

Pseudo-intellectual? Why? 'Cause I don't copy my opinions and statements from books or the interweb like most of you do constantly?
Right...
I guess 'thinking for oneself' is something they stopped teaching when I graduated.
They probably didn't see the point to this form of self-expression once they saw the new load of children who wanted to be 'educated'.
Still, in my time, you could only impress teachers with 'original' and 'personal' opinions.
You guys belong more to the sponge-group then, I suppose? Good at sucking (up) and spitting (out).
You must be proud to have such impressive ways of expressing yourself.



This will be my last post in this thread, btw. Religious threads + alec = bad vibes.

Plus: I just can't take reading all those naive religious sproutings anymore. You people are the lost ones. If you don't want to be saved, it's kinda pointless to keep offering that help, ain't it?