still kicking ass i see
a bit harsh, but right on the money
i think the dude deserves a(nother) medal :rockon:
a bit harsh, but right on the money
i think the dude deserves a(nother) medal :rockon:
Rosh talks about Bethesda
- Thread starter Odin
- Start date
I'm a huge Fallout fan, and I also have much skepticism about BethSoft's FO3 at this point, but I think it's important to realize a couple of things before people go wacko.
1) Because BethSoft made Morrowind doesn't mean they'll make FO3 with similar gameplay to Morrowind. Lots of strange jumping to conclusions going on with that idea.
2) BethSoft has revealed extremely little information so far. From what I've gathered so far, they themselves haven't yet decided on much, if anything. The fact that they're not even sure if they're going to be using Van Buren assets should be a pretty clear sign that they're still in very, very early planning stages.
1) Because BethSoft made Morrowind doesn't mean they'll make FO3 with similar gameplay to Morrowind. Lots of strange jumping to conclusions going on with that idea.
2) BethSoft has revealed extremely little information so far. From what I've gathered so far, they themselves haven't yet decided on much, if anything. The fact that they're not even sure if they're going to be using Van Buren assets should be a pretty clear sign that they're still in very, very early planning stages.
This probably won't go down very well, but a very pertinent question to ask right now is "does Bethesda have any desire to have the hardcore Fallout fanbase associated with their work?"
I agree absolutely with Kharn's comment that they should be able to "handle" it, but that misses the point, which is whether they will want to address it.
I agree absolutely with Kharn's comment that they should be able to "handle" it, but that misses the point, which is whether they will want to address it.
Toast said:
Great plan, alienate the fans... Geeh, let me see how other titles have done when they did that... oh FBOS...
Toast said:
I thought Bethesda was "legendary for fan communications" and that they "built two add-ons by the fan's specs" or something.
That would kind of go against that rep
Nothing gives a bad rap like the Fallout community, yo
Role-Player
A Smooth-Skin
B-b-but why? We're so cute and cuddly. Some would say ravenous, but no one ever bothered to criticized Vorpal Bunnies for being like that. It's unfair!
Toast said:
Aside from F
OS, there's FOT. While most of the developers meant well, and while it seemed that most of the time only CTaylor and an artist by the name of Gareth had a clue about the setting design, the rest of the team was wholly ignorant - take a look at how the setting was made.Again, it's not incompetence that we're raising our eyebrows at. Do they seriously expect to develop to the detail Fallout was, in a development style wholly contrary to their own?
They haven't even bothered to try and take a public stance on whether they are going to adhere or not to the original design. At this point, with the amount of media attention, they would be fools not to. However, they don't seem to be speaking one way or another, just that they have said "they will do what they do best" and "it's not Morrowind with guns".
That says a lot, folks.
Depends on exactly which group of fans they're aiming to please. You can't please all the fans all the time, obviously. It shouldn't be a huge effort to please a lot of fans of Fallout as a franchise/setting. Most people here, on my observation, are not merely fans of the Fallout world; they're fans of the two (and sometimes just the one) original game(s), and thus not Bethesda fans in any relevant way. And reading some of the comments here, one has to wonder whether, even if pleasing the regulars here was reasonably trivial, they would want to anyway. Chris Avellone wrapped it in cotton wool but in a recent interview even he seemed, and I realise I'm running the risk of someone saying "you don't know him like I do, he didn't mean that", to tacitly acknowledge that die-hard Fallout fans have a reputation for being downright vicious, and IMO Bethesda would not be acting entirely irrationally if they simply decided that it was easier to alienate this particular group of fans and not have to deal with them again. Criticise this line of thought if you like, but I would suggest that people think about it objectively first.
The alienation routine also worked well.
For Ultima, to bring new people in. State of that series?
For Might and Magic turning RT, for bringing new people in. 3DO, where are yooooou?
For X-COM, because according to Hasbro, the fans don't care about genre and the spin-offs should bring in new people! Dead.
The same goes for more than a few more. While it does apply with common sense, the developers would have us on their side if they gave us a reason to. The PR guy wasn't at all helping, and the artist was pretty useless in terms of anything but...saying he's a Fallout fan and that it wouldn't be Morrowind with guns. He doesn't bother to say what it will be, though, so that is taken as empty fluff as well.
As I've said before, Bethesda had an inherent responsibility to inform the consumers of their intents when they purchased the franchise, if they want to keep any shred of integrity or respect. Hype and evasiveness is a game that Fallout fans do not entirely appreciate. That is, in addition to them throwing the Fallout name all around.
For Ultima, to bring new people in. State of that series?
For Might and Magic turning RT, for bringing new people in. 3DO, where are yooooou?
For X-COM, because according to Hasbro, the fans don't care about genre and the spin-offs should bring in new people! Dead.
The same goes for more than a few more. While it does apply with common sense, the developers would have us on their side if they gave us a reason to. The PR guy wasn't at all helping, and the artist was pretty useless in terms of anything but...saying he's a Fallout fan and that it wouldn't be Morrowind with guns. He doesn't bother to say what it will be, though, so that is taken as empty fluff as well.
As I've said before, Bethesda had an inherent responsibility to inform the consumers of their intents when they purchased the franchise, if they want to keep any shred of integrity or respect. Hype and evasiveness is a game that Fallout fans do not entirely appreciate. That is, in addition to them throwing the Fallout name all around.
Maybe I'm confused... but I always thought that the "fanbase" were automatic sales if you give the fanbase what they EXPECT AND WANT
"new blood" is just a big question mark... so why on earth would any SANE developer try to bring in "new blood" (which may or may not buy the product) over the "fanbase" (which will buy it if they give them what they expect and want)?
Maybe I'm clueless... I dunno...
"new blood" is just a big question mark... so why on earth would any SANE developer try to bring in "new blood" (which may or may not buy the product) over the "fanbase" (which will buy it if they give them what they expect and want)?
Maybe I'm clueless... I dunno...
God is Dog backwards
Mildly Dipped
Darque said:
It just seems self defeating. This announcement has a lot of attention. Why? Because the classic two previous games. So what's the point in deviating from that formula and throwing away the classic parts? The only reason the license is worth anything is because of us (the fans), and the previous two games being RPG classics - which includes turn based combat, SPECIAL, and so on.
Exactly.
Given just how much coverage the death of VB got.... and how many people still follow/love/cherish Fallout 1/2... and since this is most likely the reason they got it (percieved sales)
You'd think they'd get a clue and realize they don't want to alienate that fanbase.
Given just how much coverage the death of VB got.... and how many people still follow/love/cherish Fallout 1/2... and since this is most likely the reason they got it (percieved sales)
You'd think they'd get a clue and realize they don't want to alienate that fanbase.
My biggest tip to Bethesda and also my one _DEMAND_(this means they do this or they won't get my money, ever) is that they play through the original games thoroughly, over and over and over.
Eventually they will be forced to accept the grandiour of the Fallout universe and make a worthy sequal not just some morrowind-mod rubbish or whatever else they may be planning in my worst nightmares.
From now on, I think i'll be taking a step back and wait - until more information is released.
If any of the dev news fails to please me i'll probably join the roaring hordes of angry fans once again...so until then(I always tend to expect for the worse - two dissapointments for fo games in the past make you that way, I guess).
Eventually they will be forced to accept the grandiour of the Fallout universe and make a worthy sequal not just some morrowind-mod rubbish or whatever else they may be planning in my worst nightmares.
From now on, I think i'll be taking a step back and wait - until more information is released.
If any of the dev news fails to please me i'll probably join the roaring hordes of angry fans once again...so until then(I always tend to expect for the worse - two dissapointments for fo games in the past make you that way, I guess).
Don't forget The Bibles.
Roshambo said:
I'd guess that his neglecting to say what it will be is most likely due to the fact that they're at the very beginning of planning, rather than disregard it outright as empty fluff. The comment may have been made simply to quell the ridiculously premature knee-jerk reactions of "it's just gonna be Morrowind with guns!" It's never to early to warn them about screwing up the franchise, but I'd say it's too early to lynch them for having fucked up FO3 at this stage.
(first post, long time fallout fan, semi long time NMA reader thought this was a nice time to sign up, so... uhm... "Hi people")
Good job and letting Bethesda know how the fallout fanbase feels... although it could have been said a bit less overly agressive, especially the first paragraph which was a bit of a flamefest and this part
that's a bit... well... it wouldnt have been my choice of words.
i'd say we should at least give Bethesda a chance, no i dont see them do it ("it" being making a worthy FO3) because morrowind lacked everything fallout had (role playing, dialog, getting involved with the world/story) and had everything fallout fans do not want (well... everything... good looking 3-D graphics that is). But if we start burning the thing down from day 1 chances of it being good will get even smaller.
Bethesda have one thing going for them though, they suceeded to create a real-world-feel in morrowind (graphicly that is, cause the story/characters/dialog werent worth shit), which would be awesome to see in fallout....
Good job and letting Bethesda know how the fallout fanbase feels... although it could have been said a bit less overly agressive, especially the first paragraph which was a bit of a flamefest and this part
that's a bit... well... it wouldnt have been my choice of words.
i'd say we should at least give Bethesda a chance, no i dont see them do it ("it" being making a worthy FO3) because morrowind lacked everything fallout had (role playing, dialog, getting involved with the world/story) and had everything fallout fans do not want (well... everything... good looking 3-D graphics that is). But if we start burning the thing down from day 1 chances of it being good will get even smaller.
Bethesda have one thing going for them though, they suceeded to create a real-world-feel in morrowind (graphicly that is, cause the story/characters/dialog werent worth shit), which would be awesome to see in fallout....
First off I have been a long time Fallout fan and would have to call them my favorite games. I will also say that Morrowind is also one of my favorite games.
I think many people are being way to critical of Bethesda and believe they can get whatever they want. Let me first discuss Bethesda. Just because they made the Elder Scrolls games, does not automatically mean Fallout 3 will be an Elder Scrolls clone. You all have to realize that many games studios are highly talented and can make varied games. As much as many of you would like to believe, Fallout and Morrowind are close on the spectrum and are closer to each other then games like Starcraft or Half-life. I would also hold off comments on Bethesda untill they have something to show for. Once they have some trailers, info on gameplay, etc, then you can make a partial decision. However to fully evaluate the game you must wait for the game itself.
Next any modern game, unfortunatly, has to use recent or the latest technology. This includes graphics as well as the latest in rule making and A.I. Thus a game that looks like Fallout, using sprites and such, is unrealistic and asking for too much. What I think is realistic for how the game would look is looking at nwn, or what they are doing in Vampire TMR: Bloodlines (or what ive heard). In nwn it is a top down view where you can rotate around etc. Bloodlines will be 1st or 3rd person with a 3rd person being like nwn I would believe.
Finally I would like to point out my greatest worry, multi-platform development. This by far should be the greatest issue after seeing the results of this (DX: IW). Granted I enjoyed DX: IW, it was not the same as the original due mostly by technical limitations of the xbox. IE Low ram making levels small and crowded, simplied stuff to save memory too, blurry textures.
In general chill out and what for some news on what the game is going to be. They just announced they are doing this and I doubt have made a final decision on what they are going to do yet in relation to Van Buren.
I think many people are being way to critical of Bethesda and believe they can get whatever they want. Let me first discuss Bethesda. Just because they made the Elder Scrolls games, does not automatically mean Fallout 3 will be an Elder Scrolls clone. You all have to realize that many games studios are highly talented and can make varied games. As much as many of you would like to believe, Fallout and Morrowind are close on the spectrum and are closer to each other then games like Starcraft or Half-life. I would also hold off comments on Bethesda untill they have something to show for. Once they have some trailers, info on gameplay, etc, then you can make a partial decision. However to fully evaluate the game you must wait for the game itself.
Next any modern game, unfortunatly, has to use recent or the latest technology. This includes graphics as well as the latest in rule making and A.I. Thus a game that looks like Fallout, using sprites and such, is unrealistic and asking for too much. What I think is realistic for how the game would look is looking at nwn, or what they are doing in Vampire TMR: Bloodlines (or what ive heard). In nwn it is a top down view where you can rotate around etc. Bloodlines will be 1st or 3rd person with a 3rd person being like nwn I would believe.
Finally I would like to point out my greatest worry, multi-platform development. This by far should be the greatest issue after seeing the results of this (DX: IW). Granted I enjoyed DX: IW, it was not the same as the original due mostly by technical limitations of the xbox. IE Low ram making levels small and crowded, simplied stuff to save memory too, blurry textures.
In general chill out and what for some news on what the game is going to be. They just announced they are doing this and I doubt have made a final decision on what they are going to do yet in relation to Van Buren.
SumsoluS
The Punchinator
bang on target rosh!
So Rosh stands up for NMA's opinon. Sounds like people think he's right on track. And the spirit of what he's saying definitely gets an A+. The welcome you're giving the new devs (that have your balls in their vice) to the community gets a D.
So because a firm is good at something and unproven in another means there's absolutely no way that they could ever, ever...ever switch, overcome, adapt and achieve?
Or to go further, just because YOU cant envision a unique method of delivering the essentials of the Fallout world that while maybe not 100% what you want or even 100% pure Fallout , doesnt mean that creative, talented people with diverse talents cant do it.
So you've decided in the 5 seconds that the ink has been dry that you have to know everything or at the very least the core of the important decisions? Someone sounds like they need a nap and a burping.
Where is it written in stone that someone cant option a property based on its intrinsic value and not lock itself into words that will be spitted back at them at the first sign of ideas being changed?
Id think you'd be happy that they want to do something right and not fast.
Whats more, merely knowing what Bethesda has done in the past doesnt predict the future. Its fine to be skeptical and stand up for what you believe in. That part of the open letter was very well said.
Other flamefests aside, the best that can be said of Rosh's post is that it sits on the fence between "we have a memory of failed games, dont think you'll get the benefit of the doubt" and "we already know that you're going to fuck things up"... and to be honest, it sounds a lot more like the last.
Ultimately the post is what it is...but if that's what the devs continually hear from NMA then you'll get tuned out.
So because a firm is good at something and unproven in another means there's absolutely no way that they could ever, ever...ever switch, overcome, adapt and achieve?
Or to go further, just because YOU cant envision a unique method of delivering the essentials of the Fallout world that while maybe not 100% what you want or even 100% pure Fallout , doesnt mean that creative, talented people with diverse talents cant do it.
So you've decided in the 5 seconds that the ink has been dry that you have to know everything or at the very least the core of the important decisions? Someone sounds like they need a nap and a burping.
Where is it written in stone that someone cant option a property based on its intrinsic value and not lock itself into words that will be spitted back at them at the first sign of ideas being changed?
Id think you'd be happy that they want to do something right and not fast.
Whats more, merely knowing what Bethesda has done in the past doesnt predict the future. Its fine to be skeptical and stand up for what you believe in. That part of the open letter was very well said.
Other flamefests aside, the best that can be said of Rosh's post is that it sits on the fence between "we have a memory of failed games, dont think you'll get the benefit of the doubt" and "we already know that you're going to fuck things up"... and to be honest, it sounds a lot more like the last.
Ultimately the post is what it is...but if that's what the devs continually hear from NMA then you'll get tuned out.