Student tased for asking John Kerry questions...

xdarkyrex said:
After all the tazer incidents I've been hearing about over the past few years, I'm beginning to think that cops should not be allowed to carry tazer weapons at all.

...unless they'd be willing to be tazed so that they understand what kind of force they are unleashing on these people lol.
'Course, then by logic, cops should be shot so they understand what anyone they might be forced to shoot is going to feel.

Yeah yeah I know, not the same thing.

I remember seeing videos of cops-in-training getting tasered, actually, if memory serves me right... or was it maced? I know it was something...
 
Kyuu said:
'Course, then by logic, cops should be shot so they understand what anyone they might be forced to shoot is going to feel.

Yeah yeah I know, not the same thing.

I remember seeing videos of cops-in-training getting tasered, actually, if memory serves me right... or was it maced? I know it was something...


It's important that our police never become desensitized to their own potential for harming our society or the lives of individuals.

We need to constantly remind them, just in case, because they are there to protect us from vagrants and foul beasties, and when they go wrong then everything crumbles.


Oh and yes, being shot is a totally different thing.
They don't shoot people to subdue them when they're being ornery. It's a last resort for violent resistance. The lesser of two evils, we would hope. Shoot or get shot, or witness an innocent get shot.

And think about it, if tazing is as harmless as they claim, then why WOUDLN'T they be willing to be tazed?


What would be real nice is if cops had disabling guns, something fancy that doesn't hurt very much and knocks the target out instantly in such a way that they cant shoot their gun.

Inventing time!
 
xdarkyrex said:
And think about it, if tazing is as harmless as they claim, then why WOUDLN'T they be willing to be tazed?
Tazing is harmless in the sense that it doesn't cause any permanent damage, assuming it's not administered for protracted periods of time. It is, however, quite painful, as I can attest. My dad had a taser around (he's quite a purveyor of electronic doodads, a trait he passed on to me), and my brother and I played with it when he wasn't home. It hurts.

I quite agree that police are just people, and that they should be aware of the responsibility that goes along with their positions. I dunno if shocking them with their own tasers is going to accomplish that though.

And trust me, there are plenty of companies working on a fancy device that can incapacitate someone instantly with little pain and no adverse long-term effects. Whoever manages to get the patent on that will have, until their patent runs out, a bonanza of every law enforcement agency in the world clamoring for their product. Not to mention the military. Problem is, us bags of flesh have rather complicated biological systems going on. Even with all our medical advances, even making a drug with no ill side-effects is still out-of-reach in most cases.
 
xdarkyrex said:
It's important that our police never become desensitized to their own potential for harming our society or the lives of individuals.

Therein lies the rub. I've known cops, and I've known people that have gone on to become cops. They're people like you or I. They make lots and lots of mistakes, they have bad days and off days, and they like (and can easily become over-reliant) on those things which allow them to cut corners or make their job a whole lot easier. In this case, that would be tazers. The fact of the matter, though, is that their job, their duty, is to serve and protect-- protect the peace, protect the people, but even above those, to discharge these duties by protecting and upholding the integrity of our nation's constitution and body of laws, which one needn't take a very liberal reading of at all to understand that what happened here, though it may have been justifiable, was in no way just.

I don't share Maphusio's fervor, but I've always taken to the Jeffersonian line of wariness in the face of authority, and there's no denying that most of America has kind of developed an authority fetish lately. We seem to be swinging back towards a general posture regarding criminal justice that I thought we had outgrown in the '80s, with the prevalent attitude being "well, they wouldn't have gotten it unless they deserved it," and with much of the opposition being raised by nitpickers who don't know how to pick their battles or compromise with reality and who are far too sanctimonious to be taken seriously. The idea that 'police officer,' like 'politician,' is not a job like any other, but a trust, and that their forgivable margin of error should necessarily be far narrower, is plain common sense, but in today's America common sense is regularly lost in the spectacular din of far more extreme and strident voices.
 
Kyuu said:
xdarkyrex said:
After all the tazer incidents I've been hearing about over the past few years, I'm beginning to think that cops should not be allowed to carry tazer weapons at all.

...unless they'd be willing to be tazed so that they understand what kind of force they are unleashing on these people lol.
'Course, then by logic, cops should be shot so they understand what anyone they might be forced to shoot is going to feel.

Yeah yeah I know, not the same thing.

I remember seeing videos of cops-in-training getting tasered, actually, if memory serves me right... or was it maced? I know it was something...

to carry a taser the HAVE to be tased. it's a legal thing. same with pepper spray, to carry it as a cop or security guard you have to have it used on you.
 
Thrawn said:
I said:
If it reaches a point where the individual will not cease disruption, and refuses to leave, then man(and woman)handling a potential attention whore out of the building away from the crowd and cameras would be appropriate and sensible

And if he fights you while you try to do this, then what? You missed that part I guess, the part where he fought the people trying to get him out of the building?

What about the part where they asked him to stop, because he was rambling and then cut off his mic and THEN tried to escort him out, did you miss that part as well? I guess so.

You sure have talked a lot about fighting, which can be misleading, as I didn't see him assaulting police and getting charged for it. I saw the guy non-violently resisting being dragged out of a meeting by police for disrupting the event. Nice selective quoting.

I said:
If they still wanted to arrest and restrain him for whatever reason, he probably wouldn't continue to resist arrest without an audience.

I believe they were perfectly capable of getting him outside without breaking his neck, although it shouldn't have come to that anyway.

Thrawn said:
Maybe we have different ideas of what this kid was trying to do. If I didn't want to get taken from a room I'd throw myself on the ground and do everything I could to keep my arms away from your hands. And like I said before, it would probably be nearly impossible to cuff me without potentially injuring me worse than what a taser hit would do.

If you have been given plenty of warning and been asked nicely and you still fight, I think 6 seconds of pain is a fair punishment.

What do you think he was trying to do? I think draw attention to the fact that he was being removed for asking difficult questions (although in an inappropriate fashion). The greater the fuss he could stir up without incriminating himself too much, the better. Tackling him and tazering him in the hall like that was use of excessive force. Also, even if he had the foresight to drop to the ground, I'm not convinced that this strategy would make it harder to grab him with six people. No need to cuff him on the spot when dragging him outside would be adequate if the aim of the police was to stop his disruption of the meeting.
 
xdarkyrex said:
You think its okay to tazer someone who did nothing criminal?
what about you, if a cop tells you to stop talking to a political figure, and you still want to, do you think you should get tazed for TALKING?

If you watched the full video and you think he got tazed for talking, then I want you to never post on the internet ever again. Nothing good can possibly come of it.

xdarkyrex said:
I mean, removed from the building is reasonable. but this man was not in any remote way a criminal, nevertheless someone they couldnt handle.

His actions were in multiple ways criminal, but you wouldn't know anything about that since you have no clue what you are talking about.

xdarkyrex said:
excessive force, by and far.
granted, that kid is a douche and deserved to get cuffed and removed, but in no way did he deserve to be fucking ELECTROCUTED

They couldn't cuff or remove him because he kept resisting and trying to get away!!! So yes, he did deserve to get tazed.

Good entertainment. I love me some tazering videos!

Yamu said:
^Quoted for truth, mostly.^

Those cops were out of line, plain and simple. The kid in question, loudmouthed showstopper though he may have been, was NOT in possession of a weapon and was not resisting violently. He was simply resisting. The police had the right and the authority (in fact, the imperative) to remove him from the premises, but even if you want to sidestep the fact that they had more than adequate manpower to get him cuffed quick-and-dirty the old-fashioned way, I've got friends in law enforcement, and I can tell you that the officers' conduct here was of a measure that is reserved, by official standard operating procedure, for a degree of resistance that is at least three or four levels down the scale from what this kid was putting up

And the cops knew right away he was not in possession of a weapon because they have x-ray goggles, right? Oh, wait...

xdarkyrex said:
The law is not above ethics, plain and simple.
If you believe that it is, I truly TRULY hope that you either A) never vote or B) commit suicide
This was unethical and excessive.

Cops are people too, and they make mistakes.
Were they to twist his arm or accidentally pull it out of the socket, or if they mistook something he had in his hands as a weapon, this could be reasonable and forgivable.

But that did not happen.
They tazed him simply to shut him up and get him out of there faster.
Thats just plain fucked.

After all the tazer incidents I've been hearing about over the past few years, I'm beginning to think that cops should not be allowed to carry tazer weapons at all.

...unless they'd be willing to be tazed so that they understand what kind of force they are unleashing on these people lol.

Actually, all cops are tazed and also pepper sprayed at some point in their training, but you knew that. LOLZ!111!
 
EuphoricOneTriesAgain said:
Yamu said:
^Quoted for truth, mostly.^

Those cops were out of line, plain and simple. The kid in question, loudmouthed showstopper though he may have been, was NOT in possession of a weapon and was not resisting violently. He was simply resisting. The police had the right and the authority (in fact, the imperative) to remove him from the premises, but even if you want to sidestep the fact that they had more than adequate manpower to get him cuffed quick-and-dirty the old-fashioned way, I've got friends in law enforcement, and I can tell you that the officers' conduct here was of a measure that is reserved, by official standard operating procedure, for a degree of resistance that is at least three or four levels down the scale from what this kid was putting up

And the cops knew right away he was not in possession of a weapon because they have x-ray goggles, right? Oh, wait...

I dunno... I'm just woolgathering here, but I'm thinking that between the time that, like, six officers got him on the ground, and the time that they ran a massive electrical current through his body, they probably would've been able to determine he wasn't carrying, what with their hands all over him and all. Then again, if that many officers didn't have what it took to get him under control, maybe their ineptitude was of such a degree that they didn't even think to check? In that case, their conduct makes perfect sense.
 
EuphoricOneTriesAgain said:
And the cops knew right away he was not in possession of a weapon because they have x-ray goggles, right? Oh, wait...

I hope that next time you get pulled over, the cop tazes you immediately because you *might* have a weapon.
 
Well.. I live in the city in question.. and frankly, it's a huge joke here now.... the kid was just out of control and wanting his 15 minutes of fame.. and the news jumped on it because they are the news, and they do stupid stuff.

Here's my $0.02 on it, and the same thing I've shared with others about it.

le sigh..

1. this isn't a freedom of speech issue. Sorry.. it's not.. you do not have the freedom to go where you want and start a fuss. If he protested peacefully outside, if he asked his questions, let Kerry answer, and parted quietly, there would be no news story here, and his Freedom of Speech would have been A-OK.

2. If you watch the numerous multi-angled audience videos, (available on YouTube, LiveLeak, etc.) the police tried to escort him out originally without using any real force. The kid resisted... the used stronger force..the continued to resist.. they pin him in the back room of the room, ask him to comply and inform him he will be tasered if he does not, he continues to resist.. they tazer him...

3. Honestly, secret service could have cut him off a long time before the UF PD got him. The accounts I have read is UPD followed him into the room and up to the mic. If they wanted to infringe upon his rights, they would have done it before he became the media circus he is now.

4. Many people are saying that Tazering is excessive force and could be deadly, and that submission holds, etc could have easily taken care of the situation.. does no one else remember the recent event in Florida where some kid got killed because of a submission hold that was misapplied?
(added ): Would you prefer an baton beating instead?

5. Many people claim that cops are tazer happy.. I don't know about GPD or UPD specifically, but the few cops I have known in the past have had to be tazered themselves before being issued a tazer. If UPD/GPD isn't doing that.. I think they should be. I'm not saying that UPD/GPD should be shot with a firearm to be issued a firearm, they understand that a firearm is lethal force. But it won't hurt to understand how much the less-then-lethal methods really do suck to be hit with..

In conclusion, after reviewing several clips from multiple angles.. the taser was applied back and to the left.. and I don't think UPD did anything in the wrong here.
 
pretty much i agree with drexx...

the tasering was not poliece brutality.

1) secret service could have used much harsher force without penalty, the fact they let the poliece deal with it showed that they thought he wasnt any real threat.

2) he was tasered for what will basically amount to criminal tresspass, the one where you can use lethal force. the debate director told the poliece to remove him for being disruptive, the poliece asked him to go, he refused, the poliece tried to remove him without force, he refused, poliece tried to remove him physically, he resisted, poliece threatened to taser him, he told them not to WHILE still resisting, he got tasered, they removed him. he had AMPLE time to stop resisting and leave peacefully.

3) the secret service, the debate director, and the poliece all knew this particular person may have attempted to be disruptive before hand and still let him in. im guessing he agreed to be civil before hand and he broke that. if he was civil and acted in a responsible manner he would not have been asked to be removed. he was not civil and became disruptive.

me personally? i would have preferred for the cops to be not so nice to this guy and get some billy club action in on him for being an idiot.
 
I think americans in general have become too used to stuff like this, hence they don't see what's so wrong with it.

But, political stunt or not, it was fucking wrong. He's a human being and was in no way threatening, they could just as easily have lifted him up and carried him out. No need for excessive force at all.
 
I'm pretty sure the secret service doesnt still follow john kerry around?

I mean why would they?
He's not the president.


Put it this way, if its a 'big deal' in the news that the secret service is following around barack obama, why would they follow around john kerry?
 
the secret service also does security for high profile senators etc.

(but i dunno if Kerry is being guarded by them)
 
UncleDrax said:
... does no one else remember the recent event in Florida where some kid got killed because of a submission hold that was misapplied?
Actually I hadn't heard about this. I can't quite understand how a submission hold could end up being fatal, though, unless it was seriously misapplied. Like the guy was being choked or something.
 
SuAside said:
the secret service also does security for high profile senators etc.

(but i dunno if Kerry is being guarded by them)

Whoops..my bad.. you are correct.. Presidential candidates generally only get protection starting 120 days prior to the election.

Kyuu said:
Actualy I hadn't heard about this. I can't quite understand how a submission hold could end up being fatal, though, unless it was seriously misapplied. Like the guy was being choked or something.

Yes..it was.. It wasn't so much as a submission hold as general over-restraint coupled with abuse. But it was originally reported as a restraint issue when it happened, and now I look more into it, I apologize for the somewhat mis-information.

This is one of the many stories on the event, jury selection for the guards involved started this week iirc.
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070923/CAPITOLNEWS/709230337/1010/NEWS01

But anyhow.. enough segwaying..
 
UncleDrax said:
Whoops..my bad.. you are correct.. Presidential candidates generally only get protection starting 120 days prior to the election.

No, they get it as soon as they declare themselves as a candidate, officially. Or so I understand.
 
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