There's more to Fallout than its engine.

Dibujante

First time out of the vault
When Bethesda announced that they would scrap the original Fallout 3 design and focus on "what they do best" which, to this date, seems to be first-person RPGs, the entire Fallout community was nervous. The thought crossed my mind, and I believe it crossed many of yours, that Bethesda had bought the Fallout license to whore it out, like Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, riding on a huge, dedicated fanbase for a bit of income.

But what does this really mean? It means the engine will be different. Radically so, even. We might never see a turn-based, isometric Fallout. But what's in a turn-based, isomentric game? Turn-based, isometric games have sucked before. Fallout was great because of how a turn-based isometric engine complemented the content the developers wanted to put into the game.

The first, and most important, is the environment. Fallout is not complete without a full-fledged nuclear wasteland. Isometry facilitated this by allowing players to get the whole picture at once: enter Den, and you're assailed with the whole thing: rude brick buildings, corrugated tin rooves, dirty children, starving peasants, drug dealers, gangers, rusted cars, old soda machines...in short, the entire Fallout culture could hit the player in an instant.

This was competence of design, not competence of engine. It could take more work to create a captivating first-person environment...but the two are not mutually exclusive. Bethesda's Morrowind series did a very good job at creating a medieval fantasy world that seemed to have its own character. I think that Bethesda, with care and respect for the Fallout universe and its fans, could create an immersive Fallout world, no matter what perspective it uses.

Turn-based combat? It was useful. It gave the game a feeling of tactics, and allowed players to be very exact in their combat. It allowed the full potential of a highly detailed game system to be reached. In short, it added to the depth of combat. But how many features to turn-based combat are really exclusive to turn-based combat? You can control large groups much more effectively in a turn-based system, but Fallout did away with large groups. You control yourself. You can make targeted shots in turn-based combat, but so you can in a real-time, first-person environment, if handeled correctly. You could sneak...you could access your inventory calmly and efficiently, but both could also be accomplished with hotkeys and an intuitive interface (and competent AI). It's been my impression that the only advantage that cannot be reproduced is thinking time...which is a petty advantage to damn an entire developer over.

Of course, I'm not without my complaints. Morrowind's dialogue system was completely inadequate to Fallout. If they're going to pursue a Morrowind-like engine, they need voice-acting, full facial movement and, most important of all, a node-based dialogue system. Fallout's conversations were interesting and complex, Morrowind's seemed to be a form of interrogation. Morrowind's dialogue system won't fly.

Further, the character movement was too clunky to handle a non-medieval combat system. A rifle can hit you from any distance, do you want to get caught on a small rock while finding cover? MorrowindFallout will need an effective character movement system.

In the end, however, more will depend on Bethesda's effective implementation of the Fallout universe, its culture, its Bible, the SPECIAL system and top-notch plotlines. An immersive nuclear wasteland can be accomplished by a determined team, no matter the tools they use to accomplish it.

But a note to Bethesda: Fallout is important to us. If you're fans of the series and want to see it continue, then at least I am supportive. If you're trying to make a qucik buck off of a tragedy, you'll never get a penny from us for Fallout, or anything else you ever produce.

I await the flames,
Dibujante
 
At first I thought you could only be wrong, but taking a minute to reflect on other games I've played, most notable being Deus Ex, it's possible to make a pseudo-RPG in FPS style. Although almost all the RPG's I've played were 3rd person, usually bird's-eye-view perspective, that was because the graphics are easier to make that way. In a 3D world, adding another dimension necessitates the need for more detail. If they do it right, we could be in for a real treat. I loved Deus Ex, and if they decide to make first-person style game, it could work out.

I don't disagree with you about turn-based systems either. I think that if they do a good enough job of it, Bethesda could impress us. In Deus Ex, I was not stuck in 'adrenaline' mode, everything I did was well thought out.

If anything, I would believe that a first-person Fallout would be very similar to Deus Ex because of the different ways one could play: Rambo-style, where one barges in with weapons blazing; Diplomat-style, where you can talk your way through a situation; or Sneaky-style, the introvert, where you avoid people altogether and lockpick your way through. Sound familiar? It does to me.
 
You do realize that in order to capture the slightest semblance of Fallout, the game HAS TO BE 3RD PERSON ISOMETRIC. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S. What would you think of Diablo 3 if it were made first person? IT WOULD SUCK AND NOT BE AT ALL LIKE THE ORIGINAL. They might as well not even give it a Diablo name. How about Baldur's Gate 2? What if that was first person instead of 3rd? What would people have thought about it then? It certainly wouldn't have been nearly as good. The fact is that first and 3rd person RPG's are completely different, and games should NEVER CROSS OVER. NO MATTER WHAT. Anyone who thinks that it would be OK is a FOOL.

Not to mention Combat.....JESUS CHRIST. What would you think of a Diablo 3 with turnbased combat? It would be a completely different game and would blow. Same with Fallout. Fallout is not Fallout without Turn Based combat. If Fallout 3 does not use Turn Based combat, it becomes a SHITTY MOTHER FUCKING HACK N SLASH GAME. GODDAMMIT.
 
I am curious would Fallout 3 be good if the engine was similar to that in NWN? Because like in another topic I posted in it seem many were steadfast on keeping it exactly like fallout 1/2 (ie 2d engine).
 
You are so goodamn stupid. We have never, EVER, said that it has to be 2D. You're incompetent little mind just registers the phrase "3rd person isometric" as 2D. Guess what? IT'S FUCKING NOT EXCLUSIVE TO 2D. Isometric refers to the damn viewpoint.
 
Easy KOC, these guys are being reasonable and you should to. Save the rage for the people who deserve it.
 
Sorry, I'm just getting a little frustrated with everything. I wouldn't have said it so harshly, it's just that Mr. Jeff here has been told the exact same thing before.
 
I'm really more worried about the depth of skills and interaction that will be present. Console systems just seem incompatible with the SPECIAL system. I don't know if they are, but it just feels awkward to try to picture SPECIAL on a console. But who knows? I've heard rumors that FO3 will be put on to the next generation of consoles, so we don't have to worry about it lagging, graphically. As far as depth of RPG play? Bethesda should make it an RPG first, and a multi-platform game second. Maybe it won't go so well on the console, but we PC gamers are the real following.

King of Creation is right that a non-isometric real-time game would not resemble Fallout 1 or 2, but I believe that this is from a purely engine-driven standpoint. We should also focus on Fallout's universe and the effective way with which the developers used this engine to deliver Fallout content. Even with isometry and turn-based combat intact, MorrowindFallout could be a disaster if it fails to differentiate itself from a shoot-em-up that happens to be in the desert.

My opinion? Let Bethesda have a chance (they're not using Morrowind engine, thank the Vault), but we should also make a petition to have Bethesda/Interplay release all of the original Fallout 3 work, but with a license that forbids its sale. No profit to be made from it, but a group of talented Fallout community members could probably patch together the last bits of it and give us a Fallout that the entire community is waiting on.

Regards,
Dibujante
 
DataSpot said:
I don't disagree with you about turn-based systems either. I think that if they do a good enough job of it, Bethesda could impress us. In Deus Ex, I was not stuck in 'adrenaline' mode, everything I did was well thought out.

If anything, I would believe that a first-person Fallout would be very similar to Deus Ex because of the different ways one could play: Rambo-style, where one barges in with weapons blazing; Diplomat-style, where you can talk your way through a situation; or Sneaky-style, the introvert, where you avoid people altogether and lockpick your way through. Sound familiar? It does to me.

I agree that a Deus Ex style post-apoc style game would be great if done to the standard of the original Deus Ex, and that if Bethesda does the game first person it will probably be similar - I think the limitations of an FPV automatically kill off a great deal of RPG potential though. Good for immersiveness and suspense, since the view is roughly equal to what you'd see with your own eyes and can give you a feeling of actually being in the game world, but other elements of RPG's just don't work well with it.

Turn-based combat, for one, just doesn't translate well - take Wizardry VIII for an example. It worked, but it was just kind of lame and I can't picture anyone really improving on it. There just seems to be an inherent "wrongness" about turn-based combat in first-person - it's like having some nightmare where you're being attacked but can't react at all, or if you can it's very, very slowly. The two just don't seem to go together. Without turn-based though stats and skills become near meaningless since the fighting depends on your quickness and reaction time rather than the character's abilities, which kind of defeats the purpose of a role-playing game.

Edit: I'd like to add that I grew up with old-school RPG's, a lot of which were both first-person-view and turn-based and were incredibly fun to play. There's a huge difference between the graphics of those games and the realistic 3D graphics of today though, and what worked back then doesn't feel right with modern games.
 
Just my thoughts

I agree that Fallout 3 must contain and isometric view point, the SPECIAL rule set, and be turn based in order for it to be true to the Fallout series.

What I wouldn't mind seeing though is a fully interactive 3D environment, along the lines of those seen in Freedom Force. Just for the fact that is the new game has Mutant companions, I want to see them smack someone down with a tree or throw a highwayman at someone. I truly love maximum destruction. Freedom force was a highly flawed game but I did love that aspect of it.

Just my thoughts...
 
of course it might be *possible* to make fallout without isometric view and turn based combat, but it is so damned hard that it wont be worth the try, it would 99% sure wind up as crap...thats why it should be isometric view and turn based combat, if you mess with something that runs perfect, you might end up improving it, but most likely, you would destroy it.
 
just a little comment:

real time first person shooter would be raping the entire legacy

but i'm not going to make a big post about it, i'm going to let Roshambo rip your spinal column out and i'll be sitting here watching/enjoying
 
I'm just being realistic. Bethesda seems to have something in mind, and I don't see them doing anything other than what they plan. Although 'it's too early to say,' I would imagine that creating a FPV is something they've got stuck in their minds. What we have to do is be open-minded about this situation. FO3 was given a second lease on life by Bethesda, shouldn't they be given credit for that? Whatever they do with the game, as long as the content is good, I'll judge the game acceptable.

Combat, however, will be different, to be sure. 3rd person view gives more information to the player and allows him/her to make better decisions instead of being surprised every time they turn a corner. And movement by clicking on the screen is thrown out the window in this scheme, especially since Bethesda apparently wants to make a console game. So yes, this game will be much different. Let's just hope that Bethesda will be able to make good content for this game, and we could overlook it's engine 'flaws.'
 
Montez said:
Easy KOC, these guys are being reasonable and you should to. Save the rage for the people who deserve it.


Actually every single page of the Fallout3 thread at the Bethesda forum has insults against Fallout fans, and many against NMA, so i don`t see why they should have the right to special treatment here.

Although i do prefer this type of civil discussion, carry on, sorry for the OT Montez.
 
Im glad theres gonna be a fallout 3 but i just wish they'd hold true to the gameplay everyone loves if their gonna call it fallout 3, after that they can go in alot of directions if they want to i dont care then because by then they'd at least give the dam thing a diffrent name other then fallout 4 or something. the game could be good the game could be shit I dont know. just hope they have virus scanner if they send fallout into the gutter.

and if the bethesda forum wants to fling shit at us I'll fling it back i dont know about you guys though.
 
Briosafreak said:
Actually every single page of the Fallout3 thread at the Bethesda forum has insults against Fallout fans, and many against NMA, so i don`t see why they should have the right to special treatment here.

I agree, if anyone comes here specifically to troll they're going to be kicked out. The "new guys" in this thread haven't shown any signs of that though, so it's not special treatment, it's just treating them like regular members.

Although i do prefer this type of civil discussion, carry on, sorry for the OT Montez.

No problem man, you know I value your opinion, and you're the reason I'm a moderator in the first place, after all.
 
I don't want a 3rd person perspective

I wasn't sure if I came across the way I intended earlier. I wasn't suggesting that the game be made in a 3rd person perspective., just that it would be nice if it was a fully interactive 3D environment. Thats all.
If the game comes out and it is not isometric, turn based, then I probably won't buy it. I might even let it slide with auto-pause but grudgingly. I've been into pc games too long starting with my ole C64 and never could get the hang of the current fair of FPS's. I play them but about half way through I have to start hitting the cheats just to make it through the things. Stuff ADSW, give me an ole Atari one button :D
 
Speaking of Bethesda and their engine production skills....

Has anyone ever played their other newer games? I've never gotten any of the Sea Dogs games, nor the Pirate of the Caribbean...
 
Those games were made by Akella, not by Betheda. You should know that Bethesda is some kind of a Publisher/Developer hybrid. They make games of their own (The Elder Scrolls Series, Terminator games of the past, Bowling and dragster games) and they publish games for other developers (Sea Dogs, Pirates, and now, Huzaaa!, Call of Cthulhu).

About their engine production skills: Bethesda was the first company to make a true 3D engine, even before Quake (well, technically, they were the second, after the Ultima Underworld engine). Their Xngine was horribly flawed and bugged though. Ask anyone who played Daggerfall. For Morrowind, they licenced the Netimmerse engine (Dark Age of Camelot, Freedom Force, the Lego games) and adapted it to suit their needs. The game engine was quite stable (I didn't experience that much crashes). Most of the bugs were gameplay bugs.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
About their engine production skills: Bethesda was the first company to make a true 3D engine, even before Quake (well, technically, they were the second, after the Ultima Underworld engine).

Would this be in terms of CRPGs or all games? ;)

In fact, I would like to say that all you 3D people are a bunch of pretenders. DOOM was out years ago, but then later comes DOOM 2D, a fun side-scrolling action game. I really couldn't believe my eyes, and times have progressed! It's so much better than Wolfenstein 3D: Mortal Combat Edition!

(This is tongue-in-cheek, folks.) :)

I also thought Arena was a bit bugged on its own. Suddenly, I'd have multi-thousand coin pieces of armor in my backpack or I'd find them in easy dungeons (I forgot the name of the money, it's been years since I've played that game since I'd rather play Daggerfall instead, often as a vampire.) It was still fun as a game of its type then.
 
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