Van Buren main plot and the missing doc #13

[Ausir]

Does anyone have the missing Van Buren design document numer 13? And even if not, what was the location it described? Fort Abandon?

 

[Per]

My 14 is the Reservation, but I'm missing a 13, and I'm not seeing a Fort Abandon. Unless it's the Enclave_Radio_Shack.doc or something.

 

[Ausir]

Yeah, I was referring to 13, dunno why I typed 14. Anyway, it's probably Fort Abandon, since it's the only location that was on the world map and doesn't have a design doc (the other locations that were cut before that were the Moletown, the Caesar's Legion headquarters and Circle Junction). Does anyone have any more info about Fort Abandon than what is already here? I could use it for my PnP campaign.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

13 has to be Fort Abandon, nothing else is big enough.

Other than what's in vb_Ft. Abandon_v.1.01.doc, which doesn't seem to be an actual VB design doc (it's more like a compilation of miscellaneous info about the entire game, a great deal of it in Polish) I don't have anything. Looking around the Vault, you guys have basically everything in that document too. Unfortunately most of it wasn't about Fort Abandon, regardless of what the name implies.

You can manage to construct an area framework from the data we have, but not much else. There doesn't seem to be much info on NPCs, quests and the like. Sorry Ausir, I think we may be stuck with what we've got.

[Edit: Wow, this post wasn't much help at all, was it?]

 

[Jesterka]

I´ve always thought that number 13 could be Grand Canyon, strange...

 

[Kan-Kerai]

Hmm. Problem is, from what I know the Grand Canyon was purely a "here be monsters" area where a few named NPCs aligned with Presper guarded the BOMB-002 wreck from the player (I may be misinformed). Doesn't really seem like that would require a full-sized design doc.

Maybe there's something wrong with the numbering system on the docs. Maybe they didn't number everything?

That would actually make a bit of sense, if Grand Canyon were numbered and Fort Abandon wasn't. Fort Abandon is conceivably a "hub area" once you've got the train working, so perhaps it couldn't really be defined within a linear progression?

Grand Canyon would fit in at about the same time as the Reservation in VB's "normal progression" depending on which way you head on the rails from Fort Abandon. That makes the #13=Grand Canyon idea seem more likely, considering the Reservation is #14.

Once again, I'm probably not helping Ausir much. I can't help it, this is interesting stuff. It's one of the few things that really gets my geek core going anymore.

 

[Jesterka]

Hmm, I may be fully wrong too, God knows...

Anyway, Grand Canoyn seems to be important enough to be marked in the worldmap. And maybe we are even missing both, somewhere existing designs.

 

[Ausir]

I got this from J.E. Sawyer:

Fort Abandon may have been cut due to time constraints. I believe it was going to be replaced by Circle Junction. I'm not sure if the Hanged Man would have been encountered at CJ, though. Fort Abandon was called Fort Aradesh originally. It was the far east outpost of NCR until Caesar's Legion totally destroyed everyone in it. It was the first major loss that made Dodge fear Caesar and gave Caesar the confidence to push forward all the way to Hoover Dam. FA was where the Prisoner met a bunch of tribals (Iron Lines, I think), Legionnaires, and found the Hanged Man.

 

[Jesterka]

You´ve PMed him, Ausir? If yes, gogogo, find out as much as possible.

Anyway, you´re doing a great work on Van Buren section of Fallout Wiki. Continue digging...

 

[Ausir]

The wiki has only a fraction of what is in the design documents, because it's just too much work. I could use some help in copying the info from design docs to the wiki.

 

[Jesterka]

Yes, I saw - some documents like Hoover Dam or Denver are just huge and some of Van Buren ground are the most impressive places in whole universe. I personally love Burham Springs, Mesa Verde and Hoover Dam.

Somebody could ask Avellone or Sawyer about some unanswered stuff (map of random encounters / locations, the missing 13th design doc... )

 

[Kan-Kerai]

What JE said made a lot of sense. Thanks, Ausir.

MCA might not be that helpful, quite a bit of stuff was modified or added after he left Black Isle.

The wiki has only a fraction of what is in the design documents, because it's just too much work. I could use some help in copying the info from design docs to the wiki.

I'm willing to help with that. I'll do a bit whenever I have time. I've already corrected some errors in the F1/F2-related articles, so why not.

If you see Van Buren-related articles mysteriously expanding in the future, there's probably a good chance it was me.

 

[Ausir]

Why don't you register, then, instead of doing it mysteriously?

As for Avellone, he, on the other hand, might have some backstory that only he knew about as it was never put in the docs themselves.

Anyway, I'm currently trying to figure out the main plot progression. This is a bit tricky, since the starting location - Tibbets, which is also a location essential to the whole first act of the main plot, has only an unfinished design document, and there's unfortunately no "main plot design document" that would explain all the story.

I now know why the Prisoner has to gather other Tibbets prisoners back at the prison, but I still don't know how, where, when and from whom exactly the PC was supposed to learn:

1) that he's infected
2) that all other Tibbets prisoners are infected
3) that he must bring other prisoners to Tibbets
4) but not stay there himself, as the prison will be blown up once he succeeds

 

[Jesterka]

Why don't you register, then, instead of doing it mysteriously?

As for Avellone, he, on the other hand, might have some backstory that only he knew about as it was never put in the docs themselves.

Anyway, I'm currently trying to figure out the main plot progression. This is a bit tricky, since the starting location - Tibbets, which is also a location essential to the whole first act of the main plot, has only an unfinished design document, and there's unfortunately no "main plot design document" that would explain all the story.

I now know why the Prisoner has to gather other Tibbets prisoners back at the prison, but I still don't know how, where, when and from whom exactly the PC was supposed to learn:

1) that he's infected
2) that all other Tibbets prisoners are infected
3) that he must bring other prisoners to Tibbets
4) but not stay there himself, as the prison will be blown up once he succeeds

Ad points 1, 2, 3 - from Ulysses, maybe?

 

[Ausir]

I doubt it. The player has no reason to go back to Tibbets/Ulysses (where he was imprisoned) before he already knows why he imprisoned there. Looks to me like it might be ZAX and the scientists in Boulder.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

1) that he's infected
2) that all other Tibbets prisoners are infected

OK, I've been doing some digging and I believe both of these are revealed at the Boulder Dome. There are a few NPCs that are infected here (one is a female scientist trapped outside the Dome in an isolation suit that's running out of oxygen), and you can find out about the Nutrient Paste (keeps the Plague dormant) from the scientists in the Dome.

It's also where Presper and company appear in-game for the first time, so there's a good chance that this is one of the places you can find about the quarantine controls. (I'm still reading through the Boulder doc)

Diana at The Nursery also knows about Limit 115, so I think she's an alternate method of discovery. She also will agree to help research a cure if you've not already infected everything in the Nursery (meaning you know enough to be able to limit your symptoms/communicability, e.g. you've been to Boulder).

3) that he must bring other prisoners to Tibbets
4) but not stay there himself, as the prison will be blown up once he succeeds

Not sure about either of these yet.

Bloody hell, there's a lot here to dig through.

I just wish the Tibbets document were more complete. Meaning, that there were more information about Tibbets itself. All we've got is a framework, which is unfortunate.

2/3 of the Tibbets doc seems like it belongs in F3_style.doc- it's mostly about the structural framework of the game, complete with examples (Podunk, Colorado). Heck, it probably WAS in F3_style.doc. Just got transplanted for some odd reason.

I'm going to continue this tomorrow, I'm too tired right now.

 

[Ausir]

Would be nice if one of the devs wrote a "Van Buren walkthrough" - i.e. described the default main story progression step by step.

This is all the information I managed to gather from J.E. Sawyer and the design docs themselves about ULYSSES/ODYSSEUS:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/ODYSSEUS

Edit: By the way, I think good old Harold might have been the key to finding the cure to the New Plague/Limit 115. Here's why:

In the FO2 ending for Harold, it says:

You still hear mention of Harold from time to time. Apparently, the tree growing from his head has gotten larger, and if rumors are to be believed, fruit is growing from it. The seeds are said to remarkably tough, and several of them have taken root even in the most barren stretches of the wasteland.

In the Nursery design doc it says:

Harold the ghoul was ill. The tree in his head developed and unknown disease and was dying. Much to his surprise, Harold found himself affected as well. He didn't think he was going to die, mind you, but still... he just didn't feel right in the head.

So, he set out on a quest for a cure. Naturally, he didn't have an easy time of it either.

(...)

Harold traveled to the Nursery and has been there ever since. He is considering settling down and spending the remainder of his day, however long that may be, in the tranquility of the gardens.

(...)

Harold the ghoul has made himself a home in the gardens, specifically the forest area. It seems that the Nursery took a liking to his tree and wanted a sample of it for its records.

(For those who don't know, Nursery is basically a repository of plants and seeds from all over the world as well as new, genetically engineered ones, overseen by Diana, a human brain connected to a ZAX computer)

And finally, in one of the endings for Boulder, it says:

With their ZAX computer saved from cannibalistic suicide, the Boulder scientists were once again able to focus their attention on repairing the dome and researching a cure for their disease. Though they made some headway, success came unexpectedly a year later in the form of genetically-engineered fruit sent from the Nursery. Freed from their disease, environmental suits, and prison-home, the scientists left Boulder, ordering ZAX to seal it behind them. The sleepers remain, awaiting someone with the knowledge to wake them safely.

Harold was mutated by FEV, which was initially created to counter New Plague/Limit 115. Therefore, wouldn't it be cool if the cure was engineered by Diana was created from DNA samples she took of Harold's tree? I think it would fit very nicely and would make Harold's presence there more meaningful and not just an easter egg. I just wonder if it was planned by the devs or if it's merely a coincidence that it all fits so well (even if it was intended, there's no mention of it in any of the docs).

 

[Kan-Kerai]

OK, so let's see...

Diana knows enough about Limit 115 to force the player to leave if they aren't using nutrient paste (the player is infecting everything). She also has her robots try to kill the player if they stick around afterward (cut off the source of the infection), and mentions having to "start all over again".

Obviously everything is fine if you're using the paste. You can then initiate the storyline path that leads to the cure, if you're a Science Boy.

So when Harold arrives at the Twin Mothers, his tree dying, Diana uses him as a test subject for her antidote. It works. When Harold travels to the Nursery, she takes interest in his Tree which has not only made a full recovery, it now seems to be producing an organic version of the antidote. She takes samples of the Tree, presumably to gene splice it with the flora in the Nursery (thus starting a chain reaction which gives the fauna immunity as well).

Harold eventually lets Diana remove the tree from his head completely and replace it with another. Diana presumably plants the tree in the Nursery, where it grows far beyond the limitations it had when part of Harold and starts producing fruit in large quantities.

Happily enough the fruit not only cures Limit 115- it builds immunity to it as well. With the player's help, she sends some fruit to the scientists at the Boulder Dome first as a test. It works. The seeds of Harold's tree eventually take root all over the wastes, managing to eradicate the plague completely.

--------------------------
So to sum it up:

The entire purpose of the Nursery was to repopulate the wastes with the flora and fauna of the old world. An earthquake cracks open a part of the Nursery, which Diana couldn't seal due to the failure of a few systems. She also couldn't initiate and complete the Nursery's mission early in response, because it turns out Limit 115 was in the way.

So in comes Harold. The only one of his kind, a relic of the old world intended to recreate it (he was a Vault Dweller born before The Great War), reformed in the image of the new world (Radiation/FEV).

He ends up saving another relic of the old world (The Nursery) which was also intended to recreate the old world by dealing with Diana, herself formerly a pre-war human and the only one of her kind (a human brain connected to two ZAX computers).

Both Harold and the Nursery had to become one with the new world in order to survive. They technically complete their original missions, but not in the way anyone expected. It all came full circle for Diana and Harold.

This all interlocks very well, not just within Van Buren but bringing in Fallout 1, 2 and the overarching theme of the failure of prewar machinations in the face of unforseen consequences. All supremely constructed irony, and very satisfying.

--------------------------
I think there's no such thing as coincidences. I doubt there'd be anything in the docs themselves about exactly what happens in this entire storyline, as it's clearly meant to be something you piece together throughout the game, and from the endings.

"Saving the world" was a two part act- Helping Diana, and stopping Presper. Diana's the creator, Presper's the destroyer. Ironically, Presper is trying to "save the world" himself by purging the plague.

He's aiming to use the weapons that destroyed the world (BOMB-001) in combination with the machinations of the old world (ULYSSES/ODYSSEUS, ARGOS, Boulder Dome) in order to purge the world of Limit 115, the plague that he's spreading, and that FEV was created to counter. (Meanwhile, FEV ended up almost being worse than Limit 115 itself)

Because he's so obsessed with the old world (for both good and bad), Presper ends up destroying many of the places that held the best chances to rebuild the world- when reviving the world was presumably his goal in the first place.

In the end he accomplished nothing but the repetition of the mistakes of the past, and he nearly destroys the few hopes for the future that are left.

Ironic as hell for the man labeled "The Smartest Man in the World". Ironic that even taking into account all of the planning put into the act, he didn't actually think it through. This may actually have been beyond Richard Grey/The Master caliber.

 

[Ausir]

So when Harold arrives at the Twin Mothers, his tree dying, Diana uses him as a test subject for her antidote. It works. When Harold travels to the Nursery, she takes interest in his Tree which has not only made a full recovery, it now seems to be producing an organic version of the antidote. She takes samples of the Tree, presumably to gene splice it with the flora in the Nursery (thus starting a chain reaction which gives the fauna immunity as well).

I think Harold being mutated with FEV gives him immunity to Limit-115 (remember, FEV was initially created to combat Limit-115) and the FEV makes his tree unique as well, so the tree doesn't become the cure because of Diana using Harold as a test subject but its fruits are a cure because it's partly composed of Harold's DNA which contains FEV. She just took samples of his tree and after analyzing it, presumably discovered their potential in curing the New Plague. And Diana doesn't start researching the cure until you bring her a holodisk with plague research data from the Boulder ZAX, when Harold has already been at the Nursery for quite a while:

Buried in the logs are the notes on the original plague research and why FEV was prosposed to counter it. You can learn about the different strains here, too (collapse above quest into this). You can even take it to the Nursery, either by holodisk or by transmission, where Diana can get a head start on finding a cure.

The mention of FEV is one more clue pointing to Harold as the source of the cure.

 

[Kan-Kerai]

Whoops. I'd originally written something close to that, but I came across this and it threw me off:

Harold the ghoul was ill. The tree in his head developed and unknown disease and was dying. Much to his surprise, Harold found himself affected as well. He didn't think he was going to die, mind you, but still... he just didn't feel right in the head.

So, he set out on a quest for a cure. Naturally, he didn't have an easy time of it either. People just didn't seem to want a ghoul around any more. But, Harold didn't let that stop him. He persisted in his quest until he came upon the Twin Mothers tribe.

Much to his surprise the tribe took him in and accepted him as he was. He explained his quest to the tribal leaders and was told that they would consult their goddess. Days later, Harold was approached by the tribal shaman and given a potion to drink. It was a foul concoction, but it worked. Fred, the tree, got better and was happy again.

It seems kind of contradictory. You're right, though: his FEV exposure made him immune to Limit 115 in the first place. Why would he need a "cure"?