Why did House destroy Vault 21?

Zorbe

First time out of the vault
Is it ever stated what his motivation for doing so was? It's not like he needed the real estate, since he ended up leaving it there anyway. He tells the courier he doesn't care how people live their lives, so I don't think he thought he was doing it for their own good.

It seems kind of out of character for him to seize private property like that for no tangible benefit.
 
He destroyed it because some sewer parts lead to it. So anyone living in the Sewers could go through the Vault and access the Strip. He wants the Strip to be accessed through the Securitrons. At least that's how I got it really.
 
I... didn't pick up on that at all. Where was it mentioned?

Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few ways he could have solved that problem without destroying the vault.
 
Err.. Nevermind, that was probably me thinking, sorry.

Although there is something at the Tops casino, from the wiki:

"Beyond Benny's workshop is a hallway with an elevator, used by Benny as an emergency escape route. The elevator requires a key to access, but there is no key that opens it in the game.
However, a script unlocks the elevator when Benny begins to flee The Tops (such as if the player attacks him in the lobby), and a different script locks it again if he succeeds in reaching it (verified with GECK). The behavior of this script can be exploited to gain access to the sub-basement by causing Benny to flee, and killing him before he can reach the sub-basement elevator. This is most easily accomplished during Ring-a-Ding-Ding! by convincing Benny to meet you in the Presidential suite, telling him that you forgive him, and then killing him as he tries to leave. Any other trigger for him to flee will work, however if he makes it to the 13th floor elevator he may outrun the player. Once Benny is dead, the sub-basement elevator will then be unlocked, with Benny unable to reach it to trigger the re-locking portion of the script, allowing you to go down and explore. Tricking the script in this way is the only way to gain access to the sub-basement on a console; on the PC version players can simply use the "Unlock" console command to unlock the door.
The sub-basement itself is a small room with a breached wall leading into a sealed-off section of Vault 21. The section is presumably part of the reactor maintenance section for the vault. It does however contain some minor loot in lockers, and several explosives crates that Benny must have used in excavating the section.
If you explore the unfinished vault, you will find several inaccessible doors, but there is one at the end of a corridor, that once open with the console command "Unlock" will lead to a void. Jumping inside this void you will be teletransported to the real Vault 21. Then you can simply turn around and leave to New Vegas or explore the vault."
 
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I think House didn't want this isolated, autonomic community of people living in a fortress under New Vegas and it sounds like they weren't willing to join him, so getting them out and filling it with concrete essentially dispersed them. If you read the wiki it says he stripped the vault of any useful contents first, so with all that gone it's just an underground housing area really.
 
Weren't willing to join him in what sense? House never seemed to ask more of the strip families than that they run their casinos like they were run in pre-war times. Vault 21 was filled with compulsive gamblers isolated since before the war, so they would have been able to do this better than anyone.

They would have had no reason to oppose him if he left them alone. If anything, they should be greatful he re-opened the Strip. It just doesn't seem in character for House. If he was willing to let the top floors be turned into a hotel, why not let the residents run the entire vault as a casino?

Besides, they decide everything by gambling. Wasn't that how he got the vault from them in the first place? He could have played to win an alliance rather than the vault.

I didn't know about that sealed-off section. I wonder why Benny was looking for...
 
Well, that interpretation works if you assume the other side of that door was intended to appear in the accessible part of Vault 21.
 
Weren't willing to join him in what sense?

Can't remember now. Maybe he wanted them to run casinos or something. Basically work for him in exchange for staying in New Vegas maybe.
Why wouldn't they want to run casinos? They're descended from pre-war gambling addicts, and their entire society is based on gambling. They're much better suited for the role than the random tribals that ended up running the casinos.
 
He just wanted to repopulate his lovely Vegas. Intelligent and radiation-free members of Vault 21 were best people for it. It's pretty well presented in the game.
 
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He just wanted to repopulate his lovely Vegas. Intelligent and radiation-free members of Vault 21 were best people for it. It's pretty well presented in the game.
But that's not who ended up repopulating Vegas. The Families were recruited from local tribes. AFAIK, we only meet three people from Vault 21, and only two stayed in the Vegas area.

That's what I'm saying. That would have been a great plan. He could have recruited the Vault 21 dwellers to run the Casinos instead, allowed them to live in the vault during its downtime, and used the Vault's facilities and expertise to provide medical services to visitors. He has plans for technological development, why wouldn't he recruit some of the vault's scientists and engineers?

Instead, he banished all that talent into the wasteland. I just can't fathom his reason for doing so.
 
I can actually see a lot of sense in House picking tribals over vault dwellers when he was constituting the families:

First of all, they were wasteland tested. As impressive as the Securitrons were, House still needed his human forces to act as something of an ad-hoc army in the beginning while he was solidifying his grip on the area, as seen in the banishment of the Khans and the first meeting with NCR at Hoover Dam. A vault full of people who hadn't had to deal with deprivation, post-nuke living conditions, or non-diplomatic conflict resolution for over 200 years didn't fit the bill.

Taking off from that last point, the 21-dwellers were already a cohesive unit with a strong sense of community and a rigid, highly specialized way of life. It would have been far harder to break and condition that. With the tribals, he was offering them a ticket out of conflict and wasteland subsistence, albeit at a high cultural price. With the vault dwellers, he would have been entirely destroying not just their culture but their world entire, evicting them into a wide-open wateland that was completely alien to them and forcing them to play pretend in ways that their knowledge of the pre-war world would cause them to view as utterly demeaning. Unlike with the tribals, he wouldn't be offering them much for what he was taking, and the dwellers having grown up literally surrounded on all sides by pre-war technology would make it harder for him to play the "Wizard of Oz" angle for shock and awe. There'd have been no leverage over them but the threat of violence.

If House had peopled the strip with the V21 inhabitants, he would have had a pissed-off and alienated group of misfit fish-out-of-water who all still shared a sense of common identity, held a grudge, and knew their way around a vault-tec circuitboard. That's just asking for trouble. Instead, he pulled a reverse-Caesar, letting the tribes under him keep a measure of autonomy so as to keep his forces in manageable, power-balanced parcels. He then took the one large, well-organized, tech-savvy group that could possibly comprise an internal threat to his vision of Vegas and scattered them. I'm sure he retained some of them, too-- he's not stupid, and if he's going to keep Sheldon Weintraub around for something as trivial to the infrastructure as neon signage, he has to have kept others. I'd be willing to wager that some of Vault 21's best technicians were instrumental to the early establishment of the strip and the surrounding communities-- it's just that Fallout's populations have never been to scale and we didn't get to meet these people explicitly. For all we know, half of Freeside could have been from Vault 21. They're there for the strip to make use of their expertise when needed, but House has no responsibility to them and he can keep a healthy distance between them and his operations, which suits his free-market outlook just fine.
 
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First of all, they were wasteland tested. As impressive as the Securitrons were, House still needed his human forces to act as something of an ad-hoc army in the beginning while he was solidifying his grip on the area, as seen in the banishment of the Khans and the first meeting with NCR at Hoover Dam. A vault full of people who hadn't had to deal with deprivation, post-nuke living conditions, or non-diplomatic conflict resolution for over 200 years didn't fit the bill.
True. Good point. But it didn't need to be an either-or decision. He could have recruited both.

Taking off from that last point, the 21-dwellers were already a cohesive unit with a strong sense of community and a rigid, highly specialized way of life. It would have been far harder to break and condition that. With the tribals, he was offering them a ticket out of conflict and wasteland subsistence, albeit at a high cultural price. With the vault dwellers, he would have been entirely destroying not just their culture but their world entire, evicting them into a wide-open wateland that was completely alien to them and forcing them to play pretend in ways that their knowledge of the pre-war world would cause them to view as utterly demeaning. Unlike with the tribals, he wouldn't be offering them much for what he was taking, and the dwellers having grown up literally surrounded on all sides by pre-war technology would make it harder for him to play the "Wizard of Oz" angle for shock and awe. There'd have been no leverage over them but the threat of violence.
He wouldn't be depriving them of their culture. They were gamblers, presumably descended from the very people who used to populate the Strip in pre-war times.

My point is, he didn't need to evict them. He could have let them continue to live in the vault even while they worked in the casinos. If they were agreeable (and the Vault 21-ers you meet seem open minded enough), he could have made Vault 21 itself into a casino, populated the other three with tribals, and had four casinos open to the public.

If House had peopled the strip with the V21 inhabitants, he would have had a pissed-off and alienated group of misfit fish-out-of-water who all still shared a sense of common identity, held a grudge, and knew their way around a vault-tec circuitboard. That's just asking for trouble. Instead, he pulled a reverse-Caesar, letting the tribes under him keep a measure of autonomy so as to keep his forces in manageable, power-balanced parcels. He then took the one large, well-organized, tech-savvy group that could possibly comprise an internal threat to his vision of Vegas and scattered them.
If he thinks they'd be a threat, the last thing he should be doing is going out of his way to piss them off. If they wanted to interact with the outside world, he could help them set up a casino where they do what they do best. If not, he didn't need to worry about them.

I'm sure he retained some of them, too-- he's not stupid, and if he's going to keep Sheldon Weintraub around for something as trivial to the infrastructure as neon signage, he has to have kept others. I'd be willing to wager that some of Vault 21's best technicians were instrumental to the early establishment of the strip and the surrounding communities-- it's just that Fallout's populations have never been to scale and we didn't get to meet these people explicitly. For all we know, half of Freeside could have been from Vault 21.
Good point. But at least Doc Mitchell left the area. Which means that the NCR high-rollers have to get medical treatment from the Followers with all the poor people.

They're there for the strip to make use of their expertise when needed, but House has no responsibility to them and he can keep a healthy distance between them and his operations, which suits his free-market outlook just fine.
His free market outlook is exactly why I question this decision. Having the state seize private property with no compensation isn't very free. Granted, he never explicitly expresses a devotion to capitalism and property rights, but he does say something like he isn't interested in how people live their lives. Destroying an entire culture simply because they might be a threat is more like something Caesar would do. At least with the Brotherhood of Steel he had a good reason to believe they were a threat, based on their ethos and past behavior.

So, maybe I misunderstand his political philosophy, but the main criticism of Mr House seems to be that he ignores people and their problems, which doesn't seem like something a statist would do. But I guess in one of the ending slides he does invade Freeside, which supports this perspective. So what is his philosophy? "Government doesn't exist to solve problems, it exists to seize property."?

You do make a lot of good points, though.

EDIT: I keep forgetting that House didn't seize the vault, he won it. Which in turn shows that there's no reason he couldn't have tried to win whatever cooperation he wanted from the residents. Also, re-reading the ending slides makes the situation with the Kings somewhat ambiguous.
 
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When you ask Sarah about House's possible motivations, she talks about how her vault ran deep and wide and contained many secrets. I got the impression that House felt it might run too close to (or even intersect, a la the secret door to The Tops) certain key areas of his operation or Vegas' infrastructure, as well as introducing several other vulnerabilities into his operation (a Frumentarius getting in and melting down the reactor being a pretty big one, off the top of my head, though I'm sure that to someone with some in-world engineering familiarity there would be several others).

Unlike the V21 dwellers, House wasn't a gambling man. He really seemed bent around threat minimization, and he liked to track and manage every facet of a situation that he could to ensure the odds were heavily in his favor. I imagine the presence of an infinitely sustainable fortress so close by whose inhabitants he couldn't monitor or directly control and that possibly provided several secret entrances, exits, and infiltration points just introduced an unacceptable number of variables for him, especially in the long term. Given House's way of thinking, he probably saw closing off the vault as his only option, right or wrong. "Winning" it out from under the 21 dwellers according to their own customs and letting them keep what was left of it as a concession were his ways of minimizing the antipathy generated against him by what he deemed a necessary move, as I see it, and with their home in ruins and no real villain for them to rally against he probably correctly assumed that the vault dwellers would become a negligible factor in the power balance.

Personally, I think you're right. There were far better ways to handle the situation. I just don't think House saw it that way. He doesn't seem to be a statist in the strictest sense-- he's more of a man with a plan, and making sure that the way is clear for that plan trumps any other concerns. The regard he gives to people and situations begins and ends with the power balance-- are they more likely to benefit or impede his goals? He didn't give a rat's ass about the inhabitants of Vault 21 as a people. He asked himself what benefit they and their vault presented him (manpower and technical expertise, which between himself and his tribals he wasn't lacking in) and what possible risks they could pose and, to him, the former wasn't enough to justify the latter. It would make no sense if he were a traditional ruler, but he's got a completely different set of priorities.
 
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I guess I missed that dialogue path with Sarah.

Personally, I think you're right. There were far better ways to handle the situation. I just don't think House saw it that way. He doesn't seem to be a statist in the strictest sense-- he's more of a man with a plan, and making sure that the way is clear for that plan trumps any other concerns. The regard he gives to people and situations begins and ends with the power balance-- are they more likely to benefit or impede his goals? He didn't give a rat's ass about the inhabitants of Vault 21 as a people. He asked himself what benefit they and their vault presented him (manpower and technical expertise, which between himself and his tribals he wasn't lacking in) and what possible risks they could pose and, to him, the former wasn't enough to justify the latter. It would make no sense if he were a traditional ruler, but he's got a completely different set of priorities.
[SUCCEEDED] I have to admit, that's a pretty good explanation for why destroying the vault was in character for House. Thanks.
 
Maybe obsidian never got around to finishing vault 21 and had to come up with a semi plausible explanation for why you cant explore the whole thing.
 
My opinion is that House doesn't want a too much large cohesive group within its own territory. (like an enclave)

I think the expression is universal, but i don't know how you say it in english. Is it "Divide to better reign" or "divide and rule".

Basically, House has three gangs that don't trust each other, and maybe even compete.
While they look toward each other, they don't try to ovetrow House and his securitrons.
Even if one of the gangs try, he would have less chances to succeed than if the three gangs were together.
Even better, the two other gangs may help House to fight the first one.

Same for the Mojave. If House had only to fight the NCR or the Legion, he would be quickly crushed.
Instead, he has to make both crush each other, so the survivor would pose no treat.

If the Vault 21 citizens were 1000 or 2000 members, it would be more that he could handle.
If they chose to rebell agains't him, they could have beaten the securitron by zergling rushing them.
Also, as they spent centuaries together, they are pretty cohesive.
House couldn't have divided them, or he would need many decades.

So he chose to reduce their number. By removing most of the space inside the vault, he prevent most vault citizens to live there.
So the remaining citizens have less members than the omertas or the White Gloves Society, a managable size.

It's the more likelly for me, but the way they introduced the subject CALLED for develloppement.
I was hoping that House himself would adress the issue soon or later...
 
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