WL2 is not looking to be the game I wanted it to be. How about you?

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2bak

First time out of the vault
Let's just establish right away that we are talking about Wasteland 2 in its current state - we all know that it's in beta and things are bound to change. Also, I am only addressing issues that has to do with the gameplay, not the story - I'm all over the story :aiee:

I'd like to discuss where I see WL2 going, cause I wanted to hear some opinions on it. Like a lot of you guys, I played WL/FO and loads of other CRPG's and have felt the decay of the genre throughout the years, so I was ofcourse excited and backed the kickstarter campaign for WL2 right away. I monitored the development, and I was really into it - right until they started moving from the design documents into the actual game design.

From the first screenshots, I thought the design direction was way, way off even though (some of) the concept art was looking really cool in terms of atmosphere, lighting and color palettes. Instead, as the game is now, it feels incredibly genetic and incoherent in its visual expression. This is problably due to A: getting assets off of the unity community, which I cannot understand why they would do. It feels really cheap. If I was designing for this game, I wouldn't let anyone come near the production and I think that's how they should feel as well, but they obviously don't. And B: They chose to go with Unity and the 3D thing. I know it was discussed a whole lot which engine they were going to go with, but it was never discussed if this should actually be a sprite graphic based game. We heard one of the animators just the other day say, that because it was not sprite based he would never be able to do death animations as cool as they was in FO. I strongly believe that sprites looks way better. There was never any problem with sprite based games except that you couldn't zoom (and who really needs that?) and last of all - did they not set out to make a good old fashioned RPG, and is sprites not the fucking essence of those games' visual expression?

The combat mechanics aren't nearly as nice as XCOM's and even if they were, I'm not sure I want the combat to that advanced.

The user interface has been re-done a couple of times, but it's utter crap and what they should do is hire an actual Interface Designer and get it done the right fucking way. Make it functional, coherent, discrete and make it look. It's not hard, I work with this stuff.

I'm not necessarily saying that they chose poorly in the decisions, I'm just looking at the consequences. At what the game looks like right now, and how it is shaping out to be. So to boil it down to one question that I would like to ask you: Do you actually enjoy the game, in it's current state?
 
In short, you mean you doesn't like visuals and combat of WL2?

I don't care much about visual and combat.
why? both are just decorations for RPG, not a main feature.
as long as WL2 aim for non-linear gameplay, I don't care much about other things.
and for me, WL2 has good enough basic tools for non-linear gamplay.

for combat, doesn't that better than Fo1,2?
Fo1,2's combat isn't good but it looks good thanks for great art work of developer.
and for motions, Fo1,2 is one of the masterpiece among 2d sprite game
and WL2 is 3d game. so I don't think it's fair comparation. :razz:
 
2bak said:
Also, I am only addressing issues that has to do with the gameplay, not the story - I'm all over the story :aiee:
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The only gameplay-related issue you addressed is combat. And the only thing you said about combat is that it isn't "nearly as nice as XCOM's" and that you wouldn't even want it to be that complex. That's one sentence about gameplay that's really just a bunch of words saying nothing, really. So I have to disagree with you, you are mostly addressing graphics and that has nothing to do with gameplay.
 
@2bac, that is the drawback of crowd sourcing, you are not paying for a product, you investing in one, and there is no way to know for sure how it will turn out.
 
Btw on the looks fronts, I just checked one of the recent videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juemg0G1UNg

a very twitchy trailer, I wish they showed a more continues game play instead of jumping between select environments\angles, but overall compared to the videos I seen from pre beta it is a huge improvement, no longer it looks like a third rate unpolished crap(visuals\scenery\combat\etc). It certainly meets my standard for what I hoped from this project in terms of visuals, I just hope they deliver on the content front.
 
Buxbaum666 said:
The only gameplay-related issue you addressed is combat. And the only thing you said about combat is that it isn't "nearly as nice as XCOM's" and that you wouldn't even want it to be that complex. That's one sentence about gameplay that's really just a bunch of words saying nothing, really. So I have to disagree with you, you are mostly addressing graphics and that has nothing to do with gameplay.
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Yeah now that I think about it I'm definitely talking about the aestethics of the game, not the gameplay.. But its the whole feel of the game, between the genetic graphics, clumsy interface and rough edges due to it being a beta (I hope)

fred2 said:
@2bac, that is the drawback of crowd sourcing, you are not paying for a product, you investing in one, and there is no way to know for sure how it will turn out.
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Yea definitely and even if this game turns out to be a game I don't really like, I'm still glad I backed it

fred2 said:
Btw on the looks fronts, I just checked one of the recent videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juemg0G1UNg

a very twitchy trailer, I wish they showed a more continues game play instead of jumping between select environments\angles, but overall compared to the videos I seen from pre beta it is a huge improvement, no longer it looks like a third rate unpolished crap(visuals\scenery\combat\etc). It certainly meets my standard for what I hoped from this project in terms of visuals, I just hope they deliver on the content front.
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That looks better. Still doesn't get me excited..

We'll see when it's released, maybe by then it won't lack the things I'm missing :)
 
Everything you said 2bak is exactly how I felt when downloading the demo from Steam. Not to mention the incredible lag problems. And truthfully I'm not expecting top-notch graphics. Theres just something about it that feels extremely.... cheap. And I'm still happily playing WL1 with no care for the low-graphics quality compared to modern games. I can't really put my finger on it, but it just seems more like a game that was made by a modding community or something, instead of a game made by an actual game production studio and former BIS members. It feels like they handed some Fallout modders the unity engine and said "make us a game".

Perhaps my problem is the Unity engine. Its not just graphics that feel cheap either, its general gameplay. And after all, while storyline and "universe" is the core focus here, this IS a game.

The Unity engine is trash, and the fact they are using it for a long and eagerly awaited game such as Wasteland 2... it's just insane. You figure with all the money the made from Kickstarter and other donations, they could have went for something just a little better than the shitty Unity engine.
 
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Yeah, I agree it feels really cheap. The problem though isn't Unity it's the devs and designers.

There are as many good as crappy games made with Unity. Just look at Pillars of Eternity from Obsidian. It looks absolutely beautiful and very well designed gameplay, and it's made with Unity. The difference here is Obsidian.
 
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It is pretty much the game I've expected to see. Therefore I am not disappointed.
 
There are as many good as crappy games made with Unity. Just look at Pillars of Eternity from Obsidian. It looks absolutely beautiful and very well designed gameplay
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HOW DO YOU KNOW THE GAME PLAY OF ETERNITY?:shock:
DID YOU PLAYED THAT?

Graphic of Eternity surely great.
graphics are easy feature to judge whether good or bad.
but for game play, it is impossible to judge before playing it.
as far as I know, Eternity didn't start alpha or beta test yet.
 
Chill bud, my bad.

No, I don't know. You're right that's a total assumption on my part. All i've got as a reference is the very short gameplay videos which barely show anything.

TBH the wasteland 2 graphics don't bother me that much. The part that feels cheap to me is the roleplaying.

EDIT:

For some reason I thought I would get to roleplay more, get more choices and consequences. That was another assumption on my part.. I should've listened to that quote ringing in my head: << Assume puts the ass in u and me>>.. but I didn't..

It's better to not have expectations on things..

I realized playing wasteland 2 that I'm not as much of a fan of the top-down tactical combat(which is wasteland 2's main focus) than I used to when I was 13-14 years old playing fallout 1-2. So all that was left for me in wasteland 2 was roleplaying..

But hey, we all make mistakes. Sorry in advance if I offend anyone with my opinion. Don't let that stop your love for a game.]

EDIT 2:

Actually scratch that.. It's not the top-down tactical combat at all, it's just the roleplaying.. I started playing F2 again today and I'm enjoying it alot.
 
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Keyword system is broken by who doesn't know the keyword system.
adding keyword button doesn't make game any better but make keyword system itself broken.
why should I type keyword instead of super convinient keyword button?
they should not change keyword system for whom doesn't know what is keyword system.

making game harsh looks good.
but does that really make WL2 a good RPG?
RPG isn't about combat or surviving.
were Fo1,2 or WL harsh?
well... I think it's not bad but I feel worry about that.
when I playing Wizardry 8, I feel harshness of the game hinder me to enjoying
quests, puzzles and dungeons.
Wasteland style RPGs(Wasteland, Fallout 1 and 2) are fun not because of combat and survival
but because of puzzles and quests.
if the combat hinders these, it's not good.

removing auto healing is Ok, but add nothing to replace it is not ok.
take painkiller every time is really annoying.


too bad there is no time system....
I think absent of time makes lots of contents weaken.
if there is time system, auto healing make sense.
you can heal yourself without item.
but time bring not only good things but also bad things.

despite of long complain, I think WL2 is good.
combat isn't complex as tactical games but I think it's enough for RPG like WL2.
graphic isn't good as Fo1,2 or Divinity OS but I think it's enough.
and I really like WL style: feel more like text based than graphic based.
 
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Not sure why all the hate, for a game that hasn't been released !
I'll critique the game, after I've played the final version. If your main concern is visuals, maybe you should go play one of the many First Person, watered-down RPG's, with little role play and a lot of Bling-Bling.
Myself, though it might not be perfect, am happy to see Devs, like Obsidian and Inxile taking "CRPG's" back to where they belong!

Backed it on KS and looking forward to next month's release !
 
woo1108 said:
In short, you mean you doesn't like visuals and combat of WL2?

I don't care much about visual and combat.
why? both are just decorations for RPG, not a main feature.
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WL2 is a tactical combat RPG, so yes it is one of the main features!

You can't expect a lot from the unity Engine, however i did expect fun combat, since Fargo from the start said it would resemble Fallout:Tactics! As it is now, it's an painful experence, with less combat mechanics than most triple A titles. I kinda expected something more akin to JA2 or ToEE i guess. It's hilarious that Divinity:OS prove that you can make amazingly fun combat with little resources, when WL2 feels like playing first part of Torment, NO, Morte and Dak'kon autoattaking your enemies. It's probably the most shallow, and monotone combat i've experienced. The Writing doesn't seem to be that great either from what i've seen in the beta.

I sure hope most people can agree that D:OS is an oldschool RPG, because if WL2 is the definition of an oldschool RPG, i'm not sure i want it. I want quality for my money, i refuse the very idea of throwing away cash just because some indie studio want to make a mediocre game.

I've played the Beta and it's somewhat good, the writing is OK, the combat awful, and the although it exists multiple solutions, they could have been integrated differentely for a more fun and engaging game. I hope the finished game prove to be a lot better than what i've seen so far.
 
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It's hard to judge game's contents before you beat it
did you beat the D:OS?
it's combat is tactical for low level part but after some point, it's combat become is too easy. even the final boss of D:OS didn't do any harm to me.
so don't judge before you beat the game.
and WL2 isn't published yet.
 
I admit the gameplay is a little disapointing so far.
No stealth (was planned), no aimed shot, no way to separate your party out of combat, blurred movements, strange commands for camera movements (i would have preferred something like Myth 1&2 moving the mouse on the borders make the camera move on that direction, moving it on the corner make the camera rotate. Here, you have one command for moving the cam, one command for zoom, one for rotation. It isn't smooth at all)

I am not fond of the dialog system, but it is somewhat faithfull to the original game, while more easy to use.

Which bother me a little as i had a similar feeling with The Bard's Tale.
Good writting, good atmosphere, but a lower than average gameplay.
(not bad, but lower than the standards of the genre)
 
Well, you can separate your party out of combat in the same map. So far the maps are quite big, usually even the house interiors are part of the same map, making it possible to split up your guys all over the place.

Moving the camera with mouse at the border can be toggled in the options.
 
Then i need to check further.
Everytime i try to select one guy and give it an order, the rest of the party follow him.
Only in combat mode, i can separate them and order them to move on different directions.
 
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