Xcom 2 ?

[ZigzagPX4]

(and who else thought generalizing for the idiotic masses was good idea) and frankly screw cripple A gaming in general.

This is pretty much the side of NMA I'm not sure what to think about, because this is pretty much the 80% opinion on here, and yet I partly disagree with it. No offense meant, person I'm quoting.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah, 50 gb of game asset/ unreal engine kit just for modding resource at release. unlike those beth heresy who delay it in 3 month for the sake of consoles.

i'm certain that mod similiar to long war will be emerge soon, maybe after 1 month. there are currently no confirmation if long war team will be working on the mods, but xcom EU was thought to be impossible to mod even by the developer. so yeah maybe.

i just think that long war is surely brutal just to mimick the original one, albeit much more forgiven. also like what i said, there's been a talk of fallout tactic/1/2 conversion mod which is just awesome

That's unfair! Bethesda is always late with their mod tools! Don't blame consoles for it

 

[Sn1p3r187]

It's got its plusses and minuses. 2 actions makes every decision important; one bad move or one miss can alter the course of the battle (by allowing one of those damn Mutons to grenade half your squad, for instance). Of course, that also robs some flexibility from the player and makes the RNG a very cruel mistress sometimes.

Xcom 2 has a lot of abilities/items granting free actions, however. The Gunslinger build for Sharpshooters is built around it for instance, reloading now doesn't end your turn at once, you can fire rockets after moving, and there's a mod with a chance to grant you an action after firing for instance. It seems that the devs are aware of the limitations of the system, but decided to work around them rather than scrap it entirely. I like it overall and think it works well.

That said, while I like the AP system and Fallout, and found it worked well in Tactics, the TU system in X-Com and Xenonauts seems a bit like needless complexility to me. Working with 8 or 10 AP is more interesting than working with 50 or 67 or 72 or 81 TUs, with every menial actions costing TUs including freaking turning around.

Have you played Wasteland 2? Does it have less action points compared to say what TU's have in XCOM like 80AP and 100AP?

 

[Ilosar]

I have encountered a few bugs and "wtf" moments that I'm unsure if they're bugs or poor design. Some of them have resulted in me save scumming, unfortunately. It's not fun screwing up because the game tells you you'll have line of sight, but when you move you suddenly don't. And losing a soldier because a Faceless spawns on the last turn of a retaliation mission and immediately gets a free turn is immensely frustrating - first time that happened I did reload, because I had no idea it could happen. Now that I know, I can adapt to it and if I make the same mistake again I won't reload. Still, mistakes like that can be "fun" on an ironman playthrough.

I've had no problems with performance, save the same retaliation mission I just mentioned, which had some dips in fps because of all the fire around the map (I presume). Buy yeah, performance seems to be one of the biggest issues with the game. It's really hard to tell these days if it's poor optimization or if it's on the user end - I do think that peoples pc's are generally even more varied now, what with all the drifferent driver versions, different parts manufacturers, different versions of Windows (and updates), "performance enhancing" software etc. Plus, I doubt people actually keep their pc's as clean and virus/malware free as they might think.

As for difficulty, I played quite a bit last night and got further into the game. New enemies have appeared and the missions have gone from all being labeled as "easy" to some being "moderate" or "difficult". The challenge is definitely ramping up. But I still think it feels fair. Save for the mission I am on now, which is the first time I've called bullshit on a few things. It's a timed mission on 8 turns where I have to destroy an ADVENT relay. I start in a corner and within the first double move from there, there are two turrets, a MEC and a trooper. Once I move past them, two Stun Lancers and a MEC drop in. A little bit further (like a half a move) is the house where the relay is, which has a Muton and two Sectoids patrolling around it. And on the other side of that house is a Viper and two more ADVENT. All this is so closely packed together that there's no chance in hell to deal with one pod at a time. I do think that this is a fun mission to figure out, but the problem is that it would pretty much be a guaranteed fail on a first attempt, at least to someone at my skill level. And I would be ok with that in an ironman playthrough, but having the option to retry the mission was too tempting. Besides, it's a guerilla ops mission - failure results in a rather punishing Dark Event.

So I did make a second attempt once I realized there was absolutely no way to get close enough to destroy the relay (after also finding out that rockets don't damage the relay). Second attempt went better and I'm just at the end of the mission - surrounded by enemies, most soldiers flanked. And the last thing that happens is that a Stun Lancer gets a double turn (obvious bug) - he teleports from behind his cover, next to my Ranger and kills her, then he moves out from the cover he initially was behind and fires on another soldier. And that's when the last pod gets activated (the Viper and two troopers), now having my guys surrounded even more. Like I said, these moments make the game an exciting experience and teach you a lot. They're frustrating as hell, but don't make me ragequit the game and yell that the game is too hard and unfair. I know a lot of mistakes I made, and a lot of precautions I should have taken. I also believe missions like this are to teach you it's actually ok to lose a mission. But a bug like that does upset me, and I don't feel ashamed for retrying from the previous turn.

Yeah, Faceless spawning and attacking in the same turn is annoying. I lost a Captain specialist to those bastards. Albeit to be fair, she was heavily wounded because I derped and turned a corner with my last action... right into the loving arms of a Berserker. She got hit for 9 damage then retreated, and next turn the civilian on top of the building she was in transforms and finishes the job. So I didn't call bullshit because I did make a mistake. That's XCOM, baby.

Chryssalids are worse, however. I only got them in one mission, but some of them are now buried underground, and they spring up and attack immediately, and unlike with Faceless you can't just stand clear of civilians if you have a doubt. Worse, they inflict a very deadly poison that seems to never wear off; I believe you have to use a medkit or the soldier is kaput. I think every other enemy in the game is well designed and fun to fight, but those damn things are not.

I haven't encountered such bugs yet. I did see the AI having brainfarts a few time, where they either do nothing or run out of cover and stand there doing nothing. Overall, however, I think the AI is better than in EU. It's more aggressive and will attempt to flank you at every possible opportunity, which is better than Thin Men having absurd accuracy bonuses so they can be glued to cover and pick off your soldiers.

 

[SuAside]

So, just finished XCOM2. It was OK, but less special to me than the original reboots (XCOM:EU & XCOM:EW). They made the mechanics a bit more varied and a little bit harder, but I feel it adds little to the game (while making things confusing for new players).
Then again, I'm one of those people that would be absolutely fine with XCOM2 being a XCOM:EW rehash with new maps, new enemies & a few extra items.

A welcome change is sequential overwatch, so that your squad doesn't blow their entire overwatch on a single dude that already goes down from the first shot. You now also have a stealth aspect, as you sometimes start on a map without the enemy being aware you're there, allowing you to ambush enemies.

They've added things that make the game a bit more random by allowing advanced weapon modification (action free reloads, granting "executions", etc) as well as random bonus abilities as you level up. I find it a bit disappointing really.
Some of those items are really really strong. The "repeater" gun mod has a 5% chance of instantly killing any enemy that you hit with your primary weapon. I've had a standard plasma rifle single shot a shield buffed sectopod. When it happens, you think "neat", but it does weird things balance-wise. Especially if you are lucky enough to get the right drops early on.
The bonus abilities can also be pretty overpowered. Armor in this game is a lot more important (as it acts as a buffer for damage to health). The grenadier can have the ability "shredder" allowing you to destroy armor (just like explosives can). I just so happened to be lucky enough to get that ability at random on my sniper. Easily tore off 2 or 3 armor tokens per shot. Handy as fuck.
I'd be very happy with random "Guardian" and "Untouchable" abilities on my guys, that's for sure.
They allow you to craft experimental items, which are generally good, but random as well. Things like underarmor (healing, anti-melee, double thickness,...), other explosives, ammo (tracer, crit, poison, anti-mech,...),... It's annoying that it takes so long to build, but then you can't tell the game to make one exactly like the one you just had since that's the one you want. You have to random again between 5 or so different objects of each type. Makes it hard to outfit your dudes just the way you want it.

A disappointment for me, is that the game hints at your flying base being attackable in the air & on the ground. Yet nothing happened for me. Which is too bad since I even put in upgraded defense turrets & shit, as well as always keeping a moderately OK base defense team on hand.

Story & lore-wise, there's fairly little new stuff. There's mostly modified old enemies and some random tidbits of info. Sadly, some tidbits of info are detrimental to the immersion.
Example1: Early in the game, you're told that ADVENT weapons are sabotaged to kill any wielder without the correct genetic code. Yet in the end cinematic you get to see rebels sneakily killing ADVENT troopers and taking their weapons? Doh...
Example2: A certain character which appears in cinematics etc gets killed, as that was important to the story. Yet his face & voice are still used for random reminders etc while you're on the ship. Why?

As far as characters ingame, Central Officer Bradford became a badass in his own right & as soon as you show up he does nothing but fly the ship. Seems more than happy to dump all the responsibilities on you, once again.
Shen is OK, but the emotional investment is shallow. She's the only person on the crew that seems human though.
I doubt anyone has any attachment to Tygan at all. Regardless of his usefulness, his character is lackluster at best. In XCOM:EU/EW you had some dynamic between scientist & engineers, this is not really the case here.

There's still plenty of sound, line of sight and breaking windows bugs sadly.
Performance on my PC is pretty borderline acceptable, but I need to buy a new PC this year anyway.

Tips for newbies:
- There's significantly more to micromanage, both on the ship and in combat, so be mindful of what you do & how. This isn't XCOM:EW.
- Pair the correct weapon upgrades together as well as abilities. Crit+Repeater would be less effective than Aim+Repeater for instance, since you absolutely want every shot to land with a repeater chance. A good idea is also to pair Repeater on a weapon with the Guardian ability which allows for A LOT of Overwatch firing.
- Early on, you cannot reuse weapon upgrades & PCS, so be mindful of doing it right from the start. (The weapon upgrades are kept on the character even if the weapon upgrades from conventional, to magnetic, to plasma weapon though, don't worry about that)
- Keep in mind that your "grenadier" is very limited in the ability to actually put grenades on target if you don't give him the right skills. It's pretty stupid to see a revolving grenade launcher on his back, when he actually only have one grenade to use per mission.
- Psionics don't level like normal troopers. They are trained completely separate from everything else. As such, it's not a bad idea to do some basic training on one squaddie, then start using him/her in the field. In the meantime, you can completely train other psionics to full (warning: this take A LONG TIME). A fully trained psionic soldier is a force to be reckoned with when used correctly.
- Psionic domination (mind control, not time limited, once per mission) and hacking (time limited, multiple per mission) provide for much needed diversions and bullet sponges. Use those abilities to their full potential & don't forget about them. They can save your bacon.
- For the final 2 missions, it's not a bad idea to have your B team do the radio/tv tower raid, and keep your A team healthy and unhurt for the second part of the mission. As you'd expect, mindshielding for the second mission is not a bad idea since you'll go up against all types of enemies, but especially psionic mofos at the end.
- In XCOM:EU/EW the special missions (final missions & EXALT stuff) were nicely designed to allow you to "stack" your squad before a breach of each map area. This is no longer the case here. Be full aware that you risk pulling a fuckton of new enemies if you try to "stack" at funnels in the maps. I guess they did that to make the concealment abilities more worthwhile, but it's a bit of a pain in the ass.

After I got the squadsize upgrades, my team was:
1 sniper, 1 specialist (healspec), 1 grenadier, 1 psionic, 2 ranger (w/ skulljack).
That worked quite well. But if I played it again now, I'd go for:
1 sniper, 1 specialist (mostly healspec), 1 specialist (mostly hackspec w/ skulljack), 1 grenadier, 1 psionic, 1 ranger (w/ skulljack).
I haven't tried that, but I think that might be better. I'll need to test that out though, so don't take my word for it.
That said, there's plenty of flexibility.

 

[Ilosar]

Defense missions are part of a Dark Event, SuAside. You get warned that a UFO is hunting down the Avenger, and if the event goes through you can see it on the map and can avoid it. It does seem it locks on to your position after a time regardless, forcing a Defense mission after a cool cutscene.

On Psionics, the abilities are usually pretty damn powerful (Null Lance on 2 Advent MECs is just beautiful), but puzzlingly their unique way to level up means you actually don't want them to get kills since they earn no XP. I'd have changed it so that earning XP decreases their training time myself.

I found Grenadiers to be very powerful. Gunner spec makes a mockery of armor and enjoys the always useful Holotargeting/Suppression combo against big targets, and the Ordnance path becomes very powerful once you get plasma grenades, upgraded launchers, grenade criticals and Salvo, easily dealing 8+ damage per launch against clusters of enemies and shattering their cover into tiny bits. Albeit my most lethal operative is a Combat specced Specialist because Combat Protocol is awesome.

My only disappointment is the Ranger sword path. Sword attacks don't do enough damage and leave you way too vulnerable after the early game. You're way better off taking good old Run and Gun, which in XCOM2 allows you to toss grenades even, and unloading those 10+ damage shotgun criticals on unsuspecting fools.

I also think the random Proving Grounds projects are a good idea, greatly encouraging replayability. After 2 games the progression path of EU/EW felt like clockwork. As is the option of gunning for Psionics also immediately if you feel like it. The game really seems to make a point of giving you more options than in the previous title.

 

[Deep One]

This is pretty much the side of NMA I'm not sure what to think about, because this is pretty much the 80% opinion on here, and yet I partly disagree with it. No offense meant, person I'm quoting.

Just recently for the first time finished the main storyline in Frontier First Encounters, I sided with the Thargoids. Even though the game is bit buggy even with the jiffe program/mod/fix the game itself has more depth and immersion and fun to it than games like Mass Effect 1-3. Basically anything that holds your hand and is a linear storytelling all the way and once such game has been played through the re-playablity value for me always goes to zero. That Tomb Raider reboot (2014) for example, I played it 100% through only once and haven't touched the thing for 2 years now.

The new AAA titles just lack that charm, that gameplay aspect of freedom and creating your own story while having fun in the game world. That's why I still to this day keep going back to the oldies and am on the lookout for good indie stuff and play stuff I know and like but I also keep a lookout for AAA titles in the futile hope of seeing something great again. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got the swing as the lyrics of the song go.

Basically us who have grown up with old games that meant something just hate where the mainstream gaming industry is going. I blame money and greed. May those things burn in the fires of my rage fueled by neutron stars.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Just recently for the first time finished the main storyline in Frontier First Encounters, I sided with the Thargoids. Even though the game is bit buggy even with the jiffe program/mod/fix the game itself has more depth and immersion and fun to it than games like Mass Effect 1-3. Basically anything that holds your hand and is a linear storytelling all the way and once such game has been played through the re-playablity value for me always goes to zero. That Tomb Raider reboot (2014) for example, I played it 100% through only once and haven't touched the thing for 2 years now.

The new AAA titles just lack that charm, that gameplay aspect of freedom and creating your own story while having fun in the game world. That's why I still to this day keep going back to the oldies and am on the lookout for good indie stuff and play stuff I know and like but I also keep a lookout for AAA titles in the futile hope of seeing something great again.

Basically us who have grown up with old games that meant something just hate where the mainstream gaming industry is going. I blame money and greed. May those things burn in the fires of my rage fueled by neutron stars.

I thought CD Projekt RED was the example of things to come in the following generations, and while it's the exception now, I assumed that future companies that will pop up will follow its pattern since their leaders will be from the same generation that have finally accepted gaming as mainstream entertainment.

Businesspeople or not, there's got to be more nostalgia callbacks and sympathising with developers by the next generation of corporate heads than this generation of corporate heads. CEOs of publishers who grew up playing Fallout 4 as opposed to CEO of publishers who have never played games is still better, if even in the slightest.

I get that the older members here have seen more of the good series going down things because they've been around longer, so there's a slight air of bitter pessimism, but I feel like things have to go on the uptake eventually. For all of the entertainment industry, not just games.

 

[Deep One]

I thought CD Projekt RED was the example of things to come in the following generations, and while it's the exception now, I assumed that future companies that will pop up will follow its pattern since their leaders will be from the same generation that have finally accepted gaming as mainstream entertainment.

Businesspeople or not, there's got to be more nostalgia callbacks and sympathising with developers by the next generation of corporate heads than this generation of corporate heads. CEOs of publishers who grew up playing Fallout 4 as opposed to CEO of publishers who have never played games is still better, if even in the slightest.

I get that the older members here have seen more of the good series going down things because they've been around longer, so there's a slight air of bitter pessimism, but I feel like things have to go on the uptake eventually. For all of the entertainment industry, not just games.

Move on from things like non-linear but meaningful gameplay and move to linear and hand holding stuff? FUCK NO!!!!!
I've played Witcher 3 a bit but medieval fantasy isn't really my cup of tea.

EDIT: And about "CEOs of publishers who grew up playing Fallout 4" ...oh dear.

EDIT2: Here's an uptake for you involved fetid human garbage:

No offence to anyone here. I have a short fuse and the picture is intended for the greedy corporate fuckers.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Move on from things like non-linear but meaningful gameplay and move to linear and hand holding stuff? FUCK NO!!!!!
I've played Witcher 3 a bit but medieval fantasy isn't really my cup of tea.

EDIT: And about "CEOs of publishers who grew up playing Fallout 4" ...oh dear.

EDIT2: Here's an uptake for you involved fetid human garbage:

No offence to anyone here. I have a short fuse and the picture is intended for the greedy corporate fuckers.

I'm pretty sure a CEO who grew up playing Call of Duty is still more likely to back the funding of something like Underrail than a CEO who grew up playing fuck all. 1/10 is better than 0/10, unless you're one of those people who prefer all-or-nothing ultimatums as opposed to compromises.

Besides, medieval fantasy isn't really my cup of tea either, but CD Projekt RED represents the game industry moving in the right direction. You seem like one of the older gamers around here, I thought you would be one of the people to appreciate that. They're not by any means the paragon of game companies but fuck if you think the entire world can and will be populated by companies like Black Isle.

 

[Deep One]

I'm pretty sure a CEO who grew up playing Call of Duty is still more likely to back the funding of something like Underrail than a CEO who grew up playing fuck all. 1/10 is better than 0/10, unless you're one of those people who prefer all-or-nothing ultimatums as opposed to compromises.

Besides, medieval fantasy isn't really my cup of tea either, but CD Projekt RED represents the game industry moving in the right direction. You seem like one of the older gamers around here, I thought you would be one of the people to appreciate that. They're not by any means the paragon of game companies but fuck if you think the entire world can and will be populated by companies like Black Isle.

No I am a being who hates compromises and is frustrated by this current non-space-faring reality in general. I hate the current state of the Earth and it's race and gaming is the only way to drown my sorrows. I do apologize for my hostility.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

No I am a being who hates compromises and is frustrated by this current non-space-faring reality in general. I hate the current state of the Earth and it's race and gaming is the only way to drown my sorrows. I do apologize for my hostility.

No problem. They're fair opinions and that really is what this forum is for. I was born after half the games that defined what gaming should be were released, and I would probably know less about what direction the industry should be taking.

I just wish this forum had a bit more optimism. I mean, c'mon guys, there's only been twenty odd years of corporations ruining gaming. It'll get better eventually. I think...

 

[Deep One]

No problem. They're fair opinions and that really is what this forum is for. I was born after half the games that defined what gaming should be were released, and I would probably know less about what direction the industry should be taking.

I just wish this forum had a bit more optimism. I mean, c'mon guys, there's only been twenty odd years of corporations ruining gaming. It'll get better eventually. I think...

I hope so, I really do. *sigh*

 

[eissa]

keep the forum on its rail guys, unless it has something to do with xcom 2

 

[Deep One]

keep the forum on its rail guys, unless it has something to do with xcom 2

It did in a way when it comes to old games vs new games. Sorry for the derail.

 

[SuAside]

Defense missions are part of a Dark Event, SuAside. You get warned that a UFO is hunting down the Avenger, and if the event goes through you can see it on the map and can avoid it. It does seem it locks on to your position after a time regardless, forcing a Defense mission after a cool cutscene.

I've had two dark events with UFOs chasing me. First time, I just made sure to dodge them all the time, then the second time I was curious to see if it could track me while I was on the ground. It hovered over me for a while and when I got tired of waiting I flew off. It then caught up and Bradford did an evasive maneuver (pretty much flew to the other side of the globe like a bat out of hell) and the UFO "lost" us.

On Psionics, the abilities are usually pretty damn powerful (Null Lance on 2 Advent MECs is just beautiful), but puzzlingly their unique way to level up means you actually don't want them to get kills since they earn no XP. I'd have changed it so that earning XP decreases their training time myself.

It's indeed weird. But they are very useful.
I wish they had some ability to detect shapeshifters though.

My only disappointment is the Ranger sword path. Sword attacks don't do enough damage and leave you way too vulnerable after the early game.

I've found the blade storm sword attacks handy against enemies that like to close to melee range. Be they shapeshifters playing a nasty surprise on you to archons flying up your butthole, they sometimes get cut the fuck down by a free reaction blade attack.

But I agree, aggressive blade attacks in normal gameplay only become viable with the Untouchable ability, because without it you get ripped to shreds. The "Reaper" ability is fun when you can successfully chain kill a few low HP enemies, but that rarely happened for me (especially since the blade attacks can have a rather significant miss chance).

 

[Ilosar]

But I agree, aggressive blade attacks in normal gameplay only become viable with the Untouchable ability, because without it you get ripped to shreds. The "Reaper" ability is fun when you can successfully chain kill a few low HP enemies, but that rarely happened for me (especially since the blade attacks can have a rather significant miss chance).

Even worse because sharpshooters get a very similar ability, Serial, that they can use halfway across the map and does more damage provided their weapons are properly upgraded. Reaper is a very cool ability but not that useful.

In general the most powerful combos rely on Grenadiers + Sharpshooters I find. Launch a grenade to blow cover and shred armor, then Kill Zone/Face Off/Serial to earn your sniper a multi kill. I particularily like the incendiary grenades against organic enemies because it disables all abilities except shooting, so those annoying mutons/elite Advent/Andromedons won't start hurling grenades if they survive. Having that one HP trooper put 3-4 troops in the medical ward is something that has happened to me one too many times.

 

[vdweller84]

My biggest concern about XCOM 2 was that they might water the mechanics down from EU/EW. But from what I read, that's not the case. Has anyone tries to play the game with a Radeon HD 4870?

 

[ZigzagPX4]

My biggest concern about XCOM 2 was that they might water the mechanics down from EU/EW. But from what I read, that's not the case. Has anyone tries to play the game with a Radeon HD 4870?

They didn't water it down (I'm not aware there was much left to water down, EU was good but it wasn't exactly high-depth strategy), but they didn't make it much more complex than it was either. It looks much nicer, music's not as good, more features, and a new setting, but it was pretty much more of the same. Which is fine for a sequel, but I can't help but feel a bit disappointed since "PC exclusive" had me thinking it would be a tad bit deeper than EU was. Maybe closer to Xenonauts and old XCOM but not quite that much.

Despite that, still a great game. Let's get this straight, though - just because a sequel is harder, doesn't mean it can has more depth. Call of Duty has higher difficulties but that doesn't add more to the game than the patriotic linear brown-and-grey cover-combat simulator as directed by Michael Bay than it is. It's fine here since XCOM:EU was already a good game, but if they pull the same thing for the obviously-upcoming expansion and the sequel then it's going to get tiring very quickly, much like how Far Cry 4 was basically Far Cry 3 with more guns, features, and a different setting.

 

[aenemic]

I'd say it's a bit more complex than EU/EW actually. The basics are the same, but it feels like there's a lot more you can do this time around. Both in tactical combat and in the strategic layer. In EU/EW I felt like my soldiers did more or less the same thing each combat round. Not so much in XCom 2, I constantly have to think on my feet and utilize my soldiers to their full potential. And in the strategic game, in EU/EW all you did was pass time until the next mission appeared. You went on the mission, no questions asked. Then you waited for the next mission. You could summarize XCom 2 similarly, but here you'll at least have options - do you go for the supplies, do you go on that mission despite all your good soldiers being wounded, do you focus on making more contacts or spending your resources on the black market and upgrades? In EU/EW you couldn't pass on a mission and you couldn't delay satellite building - if you did, you'd be screwed (at least on Classic and Impossible). In XCom 2 you actually may have to skip missions and you're not as constrained in what to build and research next.