Russian-Ukrainian war

[valcik]

Funny enough, ATM there are only Russian neo-nazist activities reported from Crimea. People with Russian nationality are marching the streets with Russian flags in their hands, heiling, burning Ukrainian books. A short text plus few pictures from some blogger:

http://npubop.livejournal.com/1817959.html#cutid1

There are pro-Putin's slogans on transparents: "For family, for Putin, for Russian sector!" What a fucking jerks!

 

[Ilosar]

I don't read Russian, but.... All of these pictures are black and white. I'm pretty damn sure Ukraine isin't stuck in the 1940's. So I have absolutely no idea how the hell this is relevant in any way, shape or form.

He refers to atrocities committed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army against ethnic Poles, in a bid to create an independent, purely Ukrainian Ukraine. It's one of the most controversial and bloody elements of our shared history.

Still, it's a ridiculous stretch of imagination to state that neo-fascists run Ukraine and will institute nationalist, racialist purges of non-Ukrainian peoples. The far right is a minority and currently enjoys temporary exposure and popularity due to the presence of a number of right wingnuts in the interim government. The support for the far right is complex and ambiguous, but that doesn't stop various people from crying FASCISTS. Especially the left, the far left, and Ukrainian Antifa.

Then the pics are even more irrelevant, at least last time I checked Poles aren't Russians. And while I don't want to offend anybody, I also don't think it's any secret that Eastern Europe has a very bloody history indeed, from all sides.

I also see a weird tendency in Russian posters (among others) to call basically everyone that opposes them ''fascists''. Ukrainian protesters? fascists. Europeans? Fascists. Americans? Fascists. Georgians? Fascists, dammit! They probably also called the Chechens islamo-fascists or something. It must be kind of buzzword ''communist'' or ''islamist'' is in the West, some kind of catch-all term for whomever they don't like.

 

[zegh8578]

Funny enough, ATM there are only Russian neo-nazist activities reported from Crimea. People with Russian nationality are marching the streets with Russian flags in their hands, heiling, burning Ukrainian books. A short text plus few pictures from some blogger:

http://npubop.livejournal.com/1817959.html#cutid1

There are pro-Putin's slogans on transparents: "For family, for Putin, for Russian sector!" What a fucking jerks!

So depressing... I mean, one thing is ultranationalist sentiments, which are lame enough, but what's with the swastikas and Hitler-worship!? I realize fully that this falls into the realm of dogma, and will never be rationally explainable, but it is so frustrating and depressing to see... "Kill everyone! Yeah! Urh urh urh! Heil Hitler! Gass the jews! Where are the jews? Kill someone! Kill everyone! Sieg Heil!", what's their fucking problem, don't they have a hobby!?

 

[Tagaziel]

I also see a weird tendency in Russian posters (among others) to call basically everyone that opposes them ''fascists''. Ukrainian protesters? fascists. Europeans? Fascists. Americans? Fascists. Georgians? Fascists, dammit! They probably also called the Chechens islamo-fascists or something. It must be kind of buzzword ''communist'' or ''islamist'' is in the West, some kind of catch-all term for whomever they don't like.

It's a result of World War II. The Soviet Union's fight against the Third Reich, a struggle between two totalitarian states that weren't all that different, was successfully spun as a great struggle of good versus evil, of anti-fascism and fascism.

It's also the reason I dislike anti-fascists movements, as impotent, self-righteous groups of stup up jackasses.

 

[valcik]

@zegh8578
I don't get it either. Those demonstrants are supposedly endangered by the Ukrainian right wing supporters and protected by Russian army, according to Putin. It looks to me like the Ukrainian minority should be protected against them instead.

 

[13pm]

Anyone who here can read Russian, read up. http://uglich-jj.livejournal.com/57674.html (warning, gruesome images are present)
These are the people who are coming to power in Ukraine. Overall, all those people were killed because they were not Ukranian.

You should really stop watching state Russian TV channels, dude. What you are writing is ultimately the same bullshit they are telling you in Vesti or Vremya. I've got plenty of friends in Ukraine and especially in Crimea.
And yes, there are Russian militaries in Crimea. And yes, they arrived even before Putin requested the permittance for the military operation in the Ukraine.

And this thing about the followers of Bandera... What a nonsense.

 

[Crni Vuk]

so you're saying putin isnt there because of the human rights

What's next? Someone claiming Obama is killing only convicted and sentenced criminals with his drones

spoilered for size

Spoiler

 

[UniversalWolf]

There are some similarities to Hitler's invasion of the Sudetenland.

 

[TheChosen1]

I also see a weird tendency in Russian posters (among others) to call basically everyone that opposes them ''fascists''. Ukrainian protesters? fascists. Europeans? Fascists. Americans? Fascists. Georgians? Fascists, dammit! They probably also called the Chechens islamo-fascists or something. It must be kind of buzzword ''communist'' or ''islamist'' is in the West, some kind of catch-all term for whomever they don't like.

You do realize what fascism means right? Those people slaughtered other people just because of their race. And now those people consider themselves national heroes. Their chant is "Glory to Ukraine, glory to it's heroes" and by heroes they mean the Banderians who caused the event I linked earlier. That red and black flag has been used during WW2, they are using it now.
I don't understand why everyone on this forum seems to classify everything they don't agree with as propaganda.

"Ukrainian Division Galichina, those who defended Ukraine." That was an advertisement of their party.

 

[Crni Vuk]

There are some similarities to Hitler's invasion of the Sudetenland.

Don't get me wrong please, I dont want to attack you. But I dont think people do here anything good if they see the case like WW2 or comparing the situation with the so called Sudetendeutsche. The situation we see right now in the Ukraine isnt really anything exceptional nor something uniquie as far as the Russian history goes.

What I dont understand, I mean really I dont, is what makes the Ukraine actually more important compared to Chechnya? Do the Russians have a "better" or "worse" reason this time to intervene? The western world is showing such a double moral right now, its downright disgusting. I am disgusted by my own people to speak so (Europe). What makes this situation now more "worth" in the news coverage compared to the Uyghur people which are seen like terrorist and sub humans by he chinese government?

 

[Ilosar]

I also see a weird tendency in Russian posters (among others) to call basically everyone that opposes them ''fascists''. Ukrainian protesters? fascists. Europeans? Fascists. Americans? Fascists. Georgians? Fascists, dammit! They probably also called the Chechens islamo-fascists or something. It must be kind of buzzword ''communist'' or ''islamist'' is in the West, some kind of catch-all term for whomever they don't like.

You do realize what fascism means right? Those people slaughtered other people just because of their race. And now those people consider themselves national heroes. Their chant is "Glory to Ukraine, glory to it's heroes" and by heroes they mean the Banderians who caused the event I linked earlier. That red and black flag has been used during WW2, they are using it now.
I don't understand why everyone on this forum seems to classify everything they don't agree with as propaganda.

"Ukrainian Division Galichina, those who defended Ukraine." That was an advertisement of their party.

'Kay, I'll humor you, where's your proof? Not that some far-right nut-jobs killed people they didn't like 50 years ago, but that those who deposed the government are doing the same thing right now? We can't exactly take your word for it you know. It should preferably happen in Crimea since, you know, that's where Saint Putin has graced the place with the presence of soldiers in the name of the protection of human rights everywhere.

 

[TheChosen1]

Like I said, they are praising what they did that time. They believe that they were protecting their country. If some party starts using the swastika again would you support them?

Spoiler

Anyone recognize this flag?

 

[Ilosar]

Like I said, they are praising what they did that time. They believe that they were protecting their country. If some party starts using the swastika again would you support them?

Spoiler

Anyone recognize this flag?

So, a flag on a pole somewhere. That's your big proof that justifies occupation by a foreign army.

Tells me all I need to know about your perspective.

 

[Tagaziel]

You do realize what fascism means right? Those people slaughtered other people just because of their race. And now those people consider themselves national heroes. Their chant is "Glory to Ukraine, glory to it's heroes" and by heroes they mean the Banderians who caused the event I linked earlier. That red and black flag has been used during WW2, they are using it now.

World War II happened seventy years ago, nobody would propose ethnic cleansing like the UPA did in Volyn and other Polish territories. You might as well say that we Poles are all fascists because we venerate the founding fathers of the modern Polish state, most importantly Marshall Piłsudski, who committed a coup d'etat in 1926 and established Poland as an authoritarian democracy. Or that all Germans are fascists, because they still refer to Prussian military traditions in their army.

You're also ignoring the complex situation of Ukraine, where right wing parties aren't popular because they are right wing and nationalist, but because they are the most active and the most helpful to the common man.

Anyone recognize this flag?

It's the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of World War II, a nationalist organization that fought for an independent Ukrainian state, free of German and Soviet influence. Its lofty ideals were compromised by violence and ambiguous strategies. The Germans wanted to exploit the UPA when the Eastern Front started turning against them and freed Bandera and his men, providing them with weapons and intel. This created the fiction that OUN and UPA were Nazi collaborators from day one.

 

[naossano]

Once again, i don't think any form of government is not enough reason to invade a country.
The crimes commited by that government could, but not the ideology itself.

Even if germany decided to call themselves the fourth reich, we will have to wait that they actually try to kill innocent people before sending our armies agains't them.

 

[UniversalWolf]

There are some similarities to Hitler's invasion of the Sudetenland.

Don't get me wrong please, I dont want to attack you. But I dont think people do here anything good if they see the case like WW2 or comparing the situation with the so called Sudetendeutsche. The situation we see right now in the Ukraine isnt really anything exceptional nor something uniquie as far as the Russian history goes.

You're not attacking me. No problem there. I'm not equating the two events - I'm just making a very general statement. There are some similarities. There are also lots of differences.

What makes this situation now more "worth" in the news coverage compared to the Uyghur people which are seen like terrorist and sub humans by he chinese government?

It's a simple matter of potential power and potential consequences, the same reason Africa is always ignored.

 

[TheChosen1]

Anyone recognize this flag?

It's the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of World War II, a nationalist organization that fought for an independent Ukrainian state, free of German and Soviet influence. Its lofty ideals were compromised by violence and ambiguous strategies. The Germans wanted to exploit the UPA when the Eastern Front started turning against them and freed Bandera and his men, providing them with weapons and intel. This created the fiction that OUN and UPA were Nazi collaborators from day one.

Good, now here is another pic

Spoiler

Now this shows that they directly support Bandera.

Also, peaceful protesters my ass: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=<wbr>WwhOBi8B63I
The Police force of Ukraine were doing what they were ordered to.

Also, has anyone ever wondered who funded the whole revolution? Those people need to eat something, and looting can only feed so many.

 

[Tagaziel]

Good, now here is another pic

Spoiler

Now this shows that they directly support Bandera.

And? They can't directly support Bandera, as his policies are fundamentally incongruous with the fact that an independent Ukraine exists. Furthermore, you'll have to provide sources that support of UPA social policies and pogroms is actually widespread among Ukrainians before there's reason to become concerned.

Also, peaceful protesters my ass: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=<wbr>WwhOBi8B63I
The Police force of Ukraine were doing what they were ordered to.

Shooting largely unarmed protesters and trying to break up legal protests? Yes, that they did.

Also, has anyone ever wondered who funded the whole revolution? Those people need to eat something, and looting can only feed so many.

There was practically no looting, as it was primarily a protest. Food and clothing was provided by Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians supporting the protests, like this pastor in Kyiv.

It's funny that there can be no large scale popular protest in favor of the West, all of it must be paid for! If you want to see a protest managed from the top and funded by a large power, look no further than Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Russians bussed in for demonstrations, Russian troops invading, Crimean MPs completely coincidentally voting to secede from Ukraine and calling a referendum... That's all coincidence right?

 

[lujo]

It's funny that there can be no large scale popular protest in favor of the West, all of it must be paid for!

Back in 2009 the students where I live occupied our university and proclaimed strike. I was involved and emotionaly invested. Was the first time I even saw some semblance of... not democracy, as much as proper parlamentarism. Who started it were two huge philosophy nerds who got into a debate at a marxism seminar who decided to hold a protest, and never counted on it escalating. I guess enough people were just about fed up with the goverment (which was very Janukovich like, except Austria sponsored), that it ended up being half-way a revolution, and we accupied the building. Almost noone even knew each other when it started and it was truly spontaneous - non-student people were so happy someone was finally voicing their oppinions that common folks lined up to donate what they could. Just petty cash - but it kept us going for a month. And we watched in utter disbelief how politicians debated and speculated every day about "who was behind it". Noone was ofc, but they wouldn't believe, and wouldn't talk to us but kept insisting that they want to talk to "whoever is behind it".

I'm not saying protests in Ukraine weren't necessarily helped by outside interests - but dear god, why is it so hard to immagine people just being fed up with a corrupt system and having a go at it? Give people a good enough cause and show determination, you'll have people getting involved just to be part of something which feels meaningful.

 

[TheChosen1]

Oh, I understand that they were fed up, and that Yanukovich was a piece of shir, but that does not justify siding with fascists to achieve that.